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larsenl1
Guest
Has she had her hormones tested? Is there a problem with her pituitary gland? I suggest a complete physical to find out if she is healthy.
God Bless
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God Bless
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Luna_Lovecraft
Guest
No, you did not. What you said was, “start by a massage and never give up not even when she says no she may not mean no.”
This, as a few other posters have pointed out, can easily be easily misinterpreted as an invitation to go beyond appropriate levels of physical contact with a spouse. Unlike other CAF members on this thread, however, I have been on internet forums, religious forums no less, where “never give up” advocates earnestly argued in favor of what is essentially spousal rape.
Since you have clarified your statement I now understand that you are using a massage opportunity to open a spousal dialogue. I sincerely thank you for your clarification.
Luna
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MadMax73
Guest
Wow! I didn’t know that this thread would go off in the direction that it did.
Again, thank you all for the prayers.
Some answers:
Again, thank you all for the prayers.
Some answers:
- She did have her hormones tested. No dice.
- I am under constant spiritual attack, I think due to a book I am writing on Spiritual Warfare (which I would appreciate a prayer for as you read this). I have blessed myself and every room in the house with holy water. We had our priest bless our house when we moved in but it definitely is time to invite him over for some dinner and do it again.
- She did reply that she is looking for a time to discuss further.
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larsenl1
Guest
Well at least you know what it is not. You may already be doing this, but I highly recommend the Chaplet to St. Michael, our defender.
I will keep you in my prayers.
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KostyaJMJ
Guest
Suppose you woke up one morning and told your wife you were too tired for work and had a headache. All things being equal, and supposing you usually do go to work and support your family, your wife would probably be ok with you staying at home one day. What if you didn’t feel like it the next morning? What if you stayed home for weeks and then months? How long would it be before she changed the locks on you?
In my mind it is about time to tell her to put out or get out. Do what it takes to get over your problem and do it quickly. I don’t see how you put up with it. I wouldn’t tolerate that kind of treatment from my wife, nor would she tolerate it from me.
In my mind it is about time to tell her to put out or get out. Do what it takes to get over your problem and do it quickly. I don’t see how you put up with it. I wouldn’t tolerate that kind of treatment from my wife, nor would she tolerate it from me.
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Sarabande
Guest
I don’t understand no. 3. Is she scheduling a time to talk about this with you in detail? It just seems strange that when a husband pours his pain and heart out in a letter to his wife, she wouldn’t look at this as something very serious. To me, as soon as I’d read something like that, I’d drop everything and talk it out with my husband to find out what we can do together to rectify and heal because it would hurt me finding out that my husband is in that much pain, and that I might be the cause of his suffering, unknowingly. I might be completely off-the-mark as I do not know you or your wife and don’t have enough information, but her response just seems detached.
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caritomilenka
Guest
This post spoke to me because I was in the situation your wife is in. Granted I don’t know her so it might be for completely different reasons but I wanted to share my experience in case it would be of any help. I was married to the best man I had ever met. He was understanding of my lack of sexual drive and never pressured me into doing anything. We fell in love because of our personalities, because of our shared love for God and because we were very compatible. He was the only man I had ever been with and I was his 1st one too. I didn’t even think sexuality mattered at all when choosing a life partner. He was my best friend and we loved each other very much but I didn’t see him with the eyes of a lover. Many times when it had been a while since we had made love, I noticed something different in him, and everytime, he changed right after we had done it. He would go back to being his happy easygoing self. I know he wasn’t doing it on purpose, but I could tell that it was something he physically needed, and I always felt terrible for depriving him of such a natural part of a marriage. I am not going to say that that was the only reason my marriage didn’t work, but it was a big part of it. I was very young and unwise. In any case, I am glad to know that you two have been able to struggle through it and are still together loving each other. After my marriage ended, I strayed away from the church and from God for that matter. I was determined to learn about my sexuality. This quest has brought me great pain as being away from God can only do, but I have also learnt what I set out to. I have discovered I am not asexual as I thought I was! Quite the opposite actually. I have learnt for example that just as most men, I am very visual. I have also learnt what are the situations that would turn me on. I am not going to go into specifics because every woman is different, but I think it would be helpful for you two to try new things. You have to get her to see you with different eyes and I am not talking about being romantic I am talking about raw passion. I am talking about discovering sexual fantasies she doesn’t even know she would enjoy. Now I know that’s easier said that done but to me I think that would have saved my marriage.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Thanks for your reading.Hey, whatever works for you and your wife. That’s great and I mean that with full sincerity.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but due to not acknowledging it in your response, you did seem to ignore the fact that in my post I mentioned that when I do say “no”, it’s “usually” because I am unwell, NOT usually because I’m exhausted. I’m sure you would never try to be intimate with your wife if she had a horrible urinary tract infection that can make things worse for a woman down there if she is intimate, or has other ailments, like nausea, migraines, etc. And I’m sure your wife would never do that to you if you were ill, because the two of you have a healthy and respectful relationship. But you both might be really good at putting your ailments aside for a half hour or more of intimacy and dealing with the ailing physical consequences afterwards, which is great for you both, but most people aren’t like that.
It does seem like in the OP’s case, there is something more than just trying to be more romantic and seductive and just going at it, especially since the couple are intimate only about 4 times a year. It can be medical or psychological reasons for this, lack of communication or that the spouse is truly asexual. Those are issues which would need to be addressed by experienced professionals and spiritual counsellors
Now, I tell you. There was a time, before the French Revolution (FR), when you did what you had to do and stop. Marriages were agreed by parents. Love would come afterwards. It seems horrid now, but I knew my uncle Joseph whose marriage to my auntie Elisabeth was arranged by their parents. Tell you, never saw a couple love more each other than they did. My auntie died and my uncle fell ill, completely depressed and died onw year later. And, I repeat, their marriage was arranged.
Now, we have got 100% love marriages and 50% divorce! Were these LOVE marriages or passion, sex, infatuation marriages? What is LOVE, anyhow?
After the French Revolution, came Romanticism. USA came into existence influenced by that. Love, passion, emotion, sentiment, all were words romantically tied. Just get carried by love and all is well. But LOVE had the same meaning as before the FR? Now, one speaks that one should not keep a marriage without love or keep a marriage only for the children. If you are in love with somebody else, says the media, follow where your heart leads you.
So, we have the messy marriages of today, messy sex, messy education of children.
Jesus taught us that LOVE is willing the other more than oneself. In present mass media, sex is willing my pleasure more than the pleasure of the other. Selfishness, only. The “me mood”, the “my pleasure” philosophy.
My marriage was a very difficult one for my wife and my have the totally opposite tastes in everything, from holidays to colors, to cars, to food, too anything you name it. From day zero, we understood that either each one goes his/her own ways or you made sacrifices for the other so that we may be together. We chose the last way and it was tough. But very rich for she learned with me and I with her. We have got 25 years of marriage this year thanks to God and looking forward to the 50th anniversary.
She is always pushing me to higher fields and I am always pulling her to unknown grounds for her. It is tough, for it is easier to be always in familiar grounds and rest a while. Sex is just a tiny little bit of our marriage and we pull and push the other not letting the other become lazy or adapted to his/her routine. We are this way, simply.
I have got much to learn,yet. Women are hard to understand, if not impossible. I do not have the Christian Sex I should have, knowing what the other wants and please her, for women are hard to understand, but I am trying. But it is very, very difficult. Trying to give flowers, champagne and stars on an everyday basis is hard…
I think that we have to make sacrifices to have sex. If sex is in the last priority of one’s family, it will be after laundry and cleaning the dust. Then one is exhausted and empty.
Suppose situation A, the criteria “I am in the mood”:
he wants, she wants, sex yes
he doesnt, she wants, sex no
he wants, she doesnt, sex no
he doesnt, she doesnt, sex no------25% sex
Suppose situation B, the criteria “You are in the mood”
he wants, she wants, sex yes
he doesnt, she wants, sex yes
he wants, she doesnt, sex yes
he doesnt, she doesnt, sex no ----- 75% sex
Jesus told, if we want to have life we must lose it.
Sex is the same. It is not only pleasure, it is sacrifice. Funnily, when both sacrifice as in situation B, both obtain much more pleasure - 75%. When no one is willing to make sacrifices, then the pleasure is 25%.
Romantically, people think that sex is only pleasure, but it is also pain. Sometimes to reach great heights you have got to suffer.
If one does not want to suffer, then the flights are low.
At last, of course, it would be out of question to force sex into a sick wife. That would be nauseating. and that would not be Christian Sex: to do what pleases the other.
My view and I do not want to impose on anybody.
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Sarabande
Guest
Hi Pfaffenhoffen - Interesting and well-thought-out and would be an interesting topic to discuss more. Perhaps we can get this made into another thread to keep on topic with respect for the OP’s situation?
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pnewton
Guest
The key word is* mis*-interpreted. I agree with the one who was called a troll, mistakenly by the way, that a husband should not give up on his wife sexually. It is too easy for that surrender to translate into emotional separation. I understand that the OP is sick and tired of constant rejection, but that may be his cross more than celibacy.
I would also menion, if no one else has, that advice from a doctor might be in order for the spouse if the rejection is rooted in a totally lack of sexual desire. Sometimes, that can be treated.
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MadMax73
Guest
I have forgiven her 70 * 7 times.
Husbands be as Christ is to his Church. Jesus suffered to death for us, and celibacy has freed me from the nightly “What if?”
The friendly person that said my cross should be constant rejection and not celibacy has not ever had his love rejected. I have become accustomed to the lack of sex, but you never get used to rejection.
I have gained a lot of clarity on the non-possibility of Homosexual Marriage during this tribulation though.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Sorry, would you mind that I think she is not rejecting you?
After all you had sex sometimes…
You feel rejected, and you entitled to feel this way…
But, maybe, she is not rejecting you…I would feel the same way…rejected…But maybe that she is not rejecting you though it seems so…
So many times I thought one person was thinking one way and she was thinking the other way. Today I had a Feast and had a 14 year old girl leading six 12 year old kids in the organization. It was a test for her and for the kids to know whether in the future they may be able to help me. I felt the whole day she was very passive and finally, I asked her: “what happened to you? Are you sad?”. Se replied with the big smile I recognized as hers: “No, I am not sad. I am very well!” I know her not well and we may think that we know our wives well. But my father-in-law who worked in America for a long time, told me after retiring and being with my mother-in-law for longer times at home: “I did not know my wife! She is so aggressive! She punches finely where it hurts”. And they were married for 50 years…
Just to say, I would not give up on your wife…
And I would not look at celibacy as a solution…
The solution MUST pass through a happy sex life with your wife.
How to do, sincerely, I have not seen enough of you both to tell. "do this, do that!! with sure certainty…
Pray for you…
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Go ahead and invite me, please…
Happy to dialogue…
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Smugleaf
Guest
I’m not trying to discredit the posters here and lack of sex drive is in many cases caused by hormonal or psychological issues. There are however asexual individuals. Like I mentioned, my partner is one of them – nothing “happened” to make her that way, she simply has no interest in sex in and of itself. I actually saw a very good quote about it once:
For asexuals, sex is like… a donut. When we see a donut, we do not have the urge to eat the donut. This does not necessarily mean we hate the donut, or think the donut is disgusting— many of us even like donuts. But we never have any urge to walk over there and eat it.
If OP’s wife has had no interest in sex for this many years, she is likely just asexual. It does not mean there is anything wrong with her, or that she does not love her husband. She just doesn’t fancy the doughnut.
For asexuals, sex is like… a donut. When we see a donut, we do not have the urge to eat the donut. This does not necessarily mean we hate the donut, or think the donut is disgusting— many of us even like donuts. But we never have any urge to walk over there and eat it.
If OP’s wife has had no interest in sex for this many years, she is likely just asexual. It does not mean there is anything wrong with her, or that she does not love her husband. She just doesn’t fancy the doughnut.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
I am not going to discredit you. You know better.
Simply I do not give up.
Yesterday, I was seeing a program in TV and some experts. One them said: “As much as you use sex, as much you want sex, and the reverse if true”.
You learn to live without sex, as if this were normal in a couple.
You do not feel like eating donuts? Just eat it! You do not need to feel.
If eating is to make you survive and you do not feel like eating, just eat to survive, do not eat because you like it.
To like is misleading. Some people overeat BECAUSE THEY LOVE IT. And they are overweight.
Some people just cannot stand to eat vegetables and they are necessary to your health.
Some people just have a short variety of food BECAUSE THEY DO NOT LIKE BUT DONUTS. That is bad.
If you do not like cauliflower, just eat it, eat it, eat it. Sometimes you are going to like it. It is a question of tradition and using it often.
Chinese eat dogs, Hindus do not eat beef, Jewish and Muslims feel it is dirty to eat pork, some people eat rabbit others not, many Africans eat ants (delicious, I tried!) or flies.
Sex is the same thing. Just do it. Just dot it. Just do it.
In a short time, you will feel the need for it. It is a question of habit and use, like a muscle which is not trained.
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tafan
Guest
At a minimum, there is one thing certainly wrong with her: she has a poorly formed conscience. Unreasonable refusal of the marriage debt is grave matter.
To the OP:
I am assuming your wife does not realize that she has been committing acts which are objectively mortal sins. So she is not culplably to that degree. When attending a course once taught by a very good priest on Catholic Morality, when he reviewed the 3 requeirements for a mortal sin (ie 1 it must be grave matter, 2 must be done freely, and 3 the person must know it is grave matter), he made a very good comment about not knowing something is a mortal sin. Although we are not guilty of a mortal sin in those cases, we will still be held accountable for that ignorance. Each of us is responsible for forming our conscience.
And sin, even if one is not culpable of the sin, brings suffering and pain into the world. You seem to know that. I will not argue with your solution to lead a celibate life, for your own sake and perhaps to keep your wife away from a near occastion of sin.
But,as a husband, you have a responsibility to inform your wife of the morality of her actions. One of our responsibilities as spouses is to help each other get to heaven. If your wife is ignorant of the sinfulness of her actions, you have a responsibility to inform her (in a charitable way of courst).
I would suggest you read question 1 g on this page twotlj.org/G-2-9-E.html
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Luvz2travel
Guest
Not married but your post makes a lot of sense of to me. :clapping: A lot of people seem to forget now days that love means sacrifice and commitment not just want they want to get out it.
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Sugabee43
Guest
In reply to your post: Yes, I have just “done it”. I have spent many, many times in the marriage bed in silent prayer, asking God to help me to enjoy this; to please my husband; to think of him and his needs; to relax; etc., so yes, I feel like I have tried to do this in an unselfish way. But, he knows and realizes that it’s a struggle for me, even when I think I’m being loving and giving. And, yes, I have had bloodwork done and it’s not hormonal. I certainly agree with you that the media has made it so difficult for men and women to know the reality of relationships because of how they romanticize everything, and also portray women in impossibly high beauty standards so that the women feel woefully inadequate and the men fanticize about supermodels.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Sorry, my English is worse than I thought.
I thought I was talking to a man and you are a woman.
Sorry about that.
Sorry, I am at a loss by your post.
And I must ask you a question too intimate. But I do not know other way to proceed. If you do not want to reply here, reply in PM. Anyhow, you do not know me and I do not know you.
Question: you never reach orgasm? or how often? or if you reach, sit it unpleasant or enjoyable? And if you reach always, why dont you like sex? I have put all the options I thought not to make the questions one by one.
Sorry, I had to make this question, otherwise I would not understand what’s going on when you say you do not enjoy…
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dismantled
Guest
And that belief is one of the major reasons why I left the Catholic Church…
OP, I don’t mean to hijack your thread by sharing my story, but I came here looking for some advice and stumbled upon your post. And perhaps sharing my story, which is a different point of view, will shed a little light for some who have commented here.
My husband and I were married before we became Catholic. We had a very active and happy sexual relationship before marriage in which we used NFP to prevent pregnancy. It worked well for us for many years. We got married and shortly after joined the Catholic church and continued using NFP as we were not ready to be parents financially and because of depression and some other mental issues, I wasn’t ready emotionally. We continued to have a healthy sexual relationship until stress and weight gain caused my cycles became irregular and I started to fear that a pregnancy would happen and limited our “safe times” to only a week or so every month. Apparently that wasn’t enough for my husband as he began pressuring me to have sex during times I didn’t think was safe and wasn’t comfortable with. The pressure escalated from begging and trying to convince me that it was OK, that it was my duty as his wife, that we’re supposed and should be open to having children, all the while trying to physically get me in the mood, to being forcible. I had to give-in in order to avoid being physically forced into having sex. We conceived our first child the first time I gave in. I was not ready to be a mother. Emotionally I knew that I wouldn’t be able to do it and I was right. I resented him because he forced himself and motherhood on me when I wasn’t ready. After the birth of our first child this continued. His desperation would get to the point that he would keep me up all night, kissing and rubbing me and poking me, trying to get me to give in, and after a couple of days of that it would escalate. I would be so exhausted from lack of sleep and physically exhausted from fighting him off of me for hours, begging him not to, that I couldn’t risk becoming pregnant again. For 2 and a half years I was able to avoid getting pregnant, but he forced himself on me so many times that I knew it was inevitable. I got pregnant with our 2nd child. 15 months later I became pregnant with our 3rd child. After his birth and when I left the Church, I think it finally sunk in for my husband how it has effected me and how much I resent him and the Catholic church for making it seem like the had the right to do that to me. I forgave him for a while, but there is only so many times a person can forgive for the same action.
My husband is a devout Catholic, he knows what he has done is wrong and has confessed it many, MANY times and believes this is his cross to bear, but I know in the back of his mind he still feels like he owed something from me because I am his wife. I have been celibate for over a year now. He has taken his own matters into his own hands (pun intended) and confesses them regularly. I do sympathize for him. But I don’t feel sorry for him. Perhaps if he had respected me and my sanctity we would be in a completely different situation.
Kudos to you MadMax for respecting and loving your wife enough to make this sacrifice!
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