I love my asexual wife

[Smugleaf]

At a minimum, there is one thing certainly wrong with her: she has a poorly formed conscience. Unreasonable refusal of the marriage debt is grave matter.

It is not unreasonable if there is no desire. Forcing herself is going to make her upset, which isn’t going to make her husband feel any better.

 

[larsenl1]

And that belief is one of the major reasons why I left the Catholic Church…

OP, I don’t mean to hijack your thread by sharing my story, but I came here looking for some advice and stumbled upon your post. And perhaps sharing my story, which is a different point of view, will shed a little light for some who have commented here.

Welcome to the forum! Your story is heart wrenching. Your marriage is suffering. Have you talked to a counselor? Have you questioned if your marriage is solid? IMO, your husband is abusive and needs to work on self-discipline and the self-sacrifice part of marriage.

You are in my prayers.

 

[tafan]

And that belief is one of the major reasons why I left the Catholic Church…

OP, I don’t mean to hijack your thread by sharing my story, but I came here looking for some advice and stumbled upon your post. And perhaps sharing my story, which is a different point of view, will shed a little light for some who have commented here.

My husband and I were married before we became Catholic. We had a very active and happy sexual relationship before marriage in which we used NFP to prevent pregnancy. It worked well for us for many years. We got married and shortly after joined the Catholic church and continued using NFP as we were not ready to be parents financially and because of depression and some other mental issues, I wasn’t ready emotionally. We continued to have a healthy sexual relationship until stress and weight gain caused my cycles became irregular and I started to fear that a pregnancy would happen and limited our “safe times” to only a week or so every month. Apparently that wasn’t enough for my husband as he began pressuring me to have sex during times I didn’t think was safe and wasn’t comfortable with. The pressure escalated from begging and trying to convince me that it was OK, that it was my duty as his wife, that we’re supposed and should be open to having children, all the while trying to physically get me in the mood, to being forcible. I had to give-in in order to avoid being physically forced into having sex. We conceived our first child the first time I gave in. I was not ready to be a mother. Emotionally I knew that I wouldn’t be able to do it and I was right. I resented him because he forced himself and motherhood on me when I wasn’t ready. After the birth of our first child this continued. His desperation would get to the point that he would keep me up all night, kissing and rubbing me and poking me, trying to get me to give in, and after a couple of days of that it would escalate. I would be so exhausted from lack of sleep and physically exhausted from fighting him off of me for hours, begging him not to, that I couldn’t risk becoming pregnant again. For 2 and a half years I was able to avoid getting pregnant, but he forced himself on me so many times that I knew it was inevitable. I got pregnant with our 2nd child. 15 months later I became pregnant with our 3rd child. After his birth and when I left the Church, I think it finally sunk in for my husband how it has effected me and how much I resent him and the Catholic church for making it seem like the had the right to do that to me. I forgave him for a while, but there is only so many times a person can forgive for the same action.

…

You did not read the post I referenced. Nothing gives a spouse the right to force/coerce sex on the other; not even the unreasonable denial of sex. The church has always been clear that sex is both unitive and procreative, ie it is a matter of love.

Here is the entire section that I referenced:

g) Unreasonable refusal of marital intercourse is a grave matter. As has been explained, each spouse’s right to intercourse has limits, and usually when either is reluctant to have intercourse, the other should not insist. Still, sometimes a spouse has no justifying reason for being unwilling to cooperate. Such unwillingness can be motivated by anger and hatred, an unreasonable desire to avoid offspring, the manipulative use of marital intercourse to compel compliance in other matters, excessive preoccupation with other activities, and so on. Sometimes, too, one spouse without good reason travels alone or stays away from home for some time, thus depriving the other of the opportunity for marital intimacy. In all such cases, when the spouse deprived of marital intimacy makes it clear, by saying so or in any other way, that he or she desires it, the other should cooperate lovingly, and refusal is a grave matter.

The wrong of unreasonable reluctance to engage in marital intimacy admits of parvity but, like other injustices, only in cases in which, typically, the one who suffers the wrong considers it insignificant: for example, because intimacy is not denied for long and the unreasonable motive is not ill will but only some understandable weakness.

Of course, sometimes the spouses disagree about whether a refusal of marital intercourse is reasonable. Then both should try to find a harmonious solution, but if that is impossible, the spouse deprived of desired intimacy must remain faithful. Moreover, such a spouse should be tolerant, for even when a denial of intimacy is plainly unjustified, physical force, psychological coercion, nagging, and resentment are both incompatible with marital love and ineffective for obtaining the loving cooperation required for true marital communion.

Please note the bolded part. So you should not be blaming the Catholic Church for your very unfortunate situation. You husband was wrong, not the Church.

Having said that, it should also be noted that wishing to not get pregnant is not a reasonable cause for refusal. The practice of NFP or abstaining from sex for the purposes of avoiding a pregnancy must be a joint decision between the spouses.

Question 1F) on the page is also worth reading and very pertinent, but will let you go see that.

twotlj.org/G-2-9-E.html

 

[tafan]

It is not unreasonable if there is no desire. Forcing herself is going to make her upset, which isn’t going to make her husband feel any better.

I would disagree. Infifelity, illness, fatigue would make requests for sex unreasonable by the other spouse. Simple lack of desire, barring any medical cause (ie illness) does not seem to suffice in refusing to love one’s spouse.

When you get married, you give yourself totally to your partnet, willingly in love. From the page referenced in my previous post

St. Paul teaches that spouses have an obligation to engage in marital intercourse:

The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to devote yourselves to prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (1 Cor 7.3–5)
Paul’s formulation makes it clear that the obligation is mutual; in this matter, husband and wife are entirely equal. The reason is that in marrying, the two become one so truly that neither may regard his or her body as exclusively his or her own.

Just imagine that a wife wants her husband to get a job, in order to support the family. But he has no desire to do so, so he just says no.

Why does lack of desire imply “forcing herself”? Why does it not just mean, “I don’t feel like it, but I want to love you anyway”.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

And that belief is one of the major reasons why I left the Catholic Church…

OP, I don’t mean to hijack your thread by sharing my story, but I came here looking for some advice and stumbled upon your post. And perhaps sharing my story, which is a different point of view, will shed a little light for some who have commented here.

My husband and I were married before we became Catholic. We had a very active and happy sexual relationship before marriage in which we used NFP to prevent pregnancy. It worked well for us for many years. We got married and shortly after joined the Catholic church and continued using NFP as we were not ready to be parents financially and because of depression and some other mental issues, I wasn’t ready emotionally. We continued to have a healthy sexual relationship until stress and weight gain caused my cycles became irregular and I started to fear that a pregnancy would happen and limited our “safe times” to only a week or so every month. Apparently that wasn’t enough for my husband as he began pressuring me to have sex during times I didn’t think was safe and wasn’t comfortable with. The pressure escalated from begging and trying to convince me that it was OK, that it was my duty as his wife, that we’re supposed and should be open to having children, all the while trying to physically get me in the mood, to being forcible. I had to give-in in order to avoid being physically forced into having sex. We conceived our first child the first time I gave in. I was not ready to be a mother. Emotionally I knew that I wouldn’t be able to do it and I was right. I resented him because he forced himself and motherhood on me when I wasn’t ready. After the birth of our first child this continued. His desperation would get to the point that he would keep me up all night, kissing and rubbing me and poking me, trying to get me to give in, and after a couple of days of that it would escalate. I would be so exhausted from lack of sleep and physically exhausted from fighting him off of me for hours, begging him not to, that I couldn’t risk becoming pregnant again. For 2 and a half years I was able to avoid getting pregnant, but he forced himself on me so many times that I knew it was inevitable. I got pregnant with our 2nd child. 15 months later I became pregnant with our 3rd child. After his birth and when I left the Church, I think it finally sunk in for my husband how it has effected me and how much I resent him and the Catholic church for making it seem like the had the right to do that to me. I forgave him for a while, but there is only so many times a person can forgive for the same action.

My husband is a devout Catholic, he knows what he has done is wrong and has confessed it many, MANY times and believes this is his cross to bear, but I know in the back of his mind he still feels like he owed something from me because I am his wife. I have been celibate for over a year now. He has taken his own matters into his own hands (pun intended) and confesses them regularly. I do sympathize for him. But I don’t feel sorry for him. Perhaps if he had respected me and my sanctity we would be in a completely different situation.

Kudos to you MadMax for respecting and loving your wife enough to make this sacrifice!

Terrible for you.
I am not commenting anything for it would not be fair.
I just pray for you.
If this may motivate you, remember that only God can write straight through crooked lines.
God Bless You.

 

[Nick90]

You’re a very strong person, I commend you for that. I’m sorry that you’re going through this, it must be very hard and difficult for you, but God will help and guide you through it. I also identify as asexual and celibate. I’ll be praying for you. Peace

 

[Nick90]

I would disagree. Infifelity, illness, fatigue would make requests for sex unreasonable by the other spouse. Simple lack of desire, barring any medical cause (ie illness) does not seem to suffice in refusing to love one’s spouse.

When you get married, you give yourself totally to your partnet, willingly in love. From the page referenced in my previous post

Just imagine that a wife wants her husband to get a job, in order to support the family. But he has no desire to do so, so he just says no.

Why does lack of desire imply “forcing herself”? Why does it not just mean, “I don’t feel like it, but I want to love you anyway”.

Getting a job to support the family is different from expecting your wife to giver her body to you without her full consent, whenever it’s forced or not.

 

[Nick90]

I am not going to discredit you. You know better.
Simply I do not give up.
Yesterday, I was seeing a program in TV and some experts. One them said: “As much as you use sex, as much you want sex, and the reverse if true”.
You learn to live without sex, as if this were normal in a couple.
You do not feel like eating donuts? Just eat it! You do not need to feel.
If eating is to make you survive and you do not feel like eating, just eat to survive, do not eat because you like it.
To like is misleading. Some people overeat BECAUSE THEY LOVE IT. And they are overweight.
Some people just cannot stand to eat vegetables and they are necessary to your health.
Some people just have a short variety of food BECAUSE THEY DO NOT LIKE BUT DONUTS. That is bad.
If you do not like cauliflower, just eat it, eat it, eat it. Sometimes you are going to like it. It is a question of tradition and using it often.
Chinese eat dogs, Hindus do not eat beef, Jewish and Muslims feel it is dirty to eat pork, some people eat rabbit others not, many Africans eat ants (delicious, I tried!) or flies.
Sex is the same thing. Just do it. Just dot it. Just do it.
In a short time, you will feel the need for it. It is a question of habit and use, like a muscle which is not trained.

I’m not sure if it’s the language barrier or what, but what you’re saying makes me feel very uncomfortable.
If someone persuaded you to try drugs, even though you didn’t want to and the thought of it made you scared, uncomfortable, or even ill, would you do it anyway? Probably not. That’s why there’s a thing called “compromise”. A relationship cannot work without compromise and if your idea of compromise is to force your wife into something she doesn’t want to do, I honestly feel very sad for you.

 

[tafan]

Getting a job to support the family is different from expecting your wife to giver her body to you without her full consent, whenever it’s forced or not.

Again, no spouse has thee right in any circumstance or through any means to force himself/herself on the other. Even in the face if a clearly unreasonable refusal, a spouse has no recourse.

However, please keep in mind that each spouse gave themselves, including their body, to each other at the time of marriage with full consent.
Can a spoise unreasonably quit honoring the other, just because they don’t feel like it? Can a spouse quit being faithful to the other just because they don’t feel like it?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I’m not sure if it’s the language barrier or what, but what you’re saying makes me feel very uncomfortable.
If someone persuaded you to try drugs, even though you didn’t want to and the thought of it made you scared, uncomfortable, or even ill, would you do it anyway? Probably not. That’s why there’s a thing called “compromise”. A relationship cannot work without compromise and if your idea of compromise is to force your wife into something she doesn’t want to do, I honestly feel very sad for you.

When one exaggerates the other person position, the meaning is lost.
I was talking about sex, which is good, You are talking about drugs, which are bad. You have got to teach children and teens to say NO. But I was talking about good things. You did not see there any example of a bad thing.

A relationship cannot work without compromise and if your idea of compromise is to force your wife into something she doesn’t want to do, I honestly feel very sad for you.

Do not be sad. We are not sad.
Take, I want to go to New York, my wife want to go to LA, so we compromise and go to Las Vegas?
I want to spend holidays in the beach, one full week in the beach, not less, my wife wants to go to the mountains, one full week not less, so we go to the planes?
You are confusing words. Look: I am not forcing my wife to do something that she does not want. She is not forcing me to do something that I do not want (that you did not talk: you do not pity me !!!). Se wants to do something she does not like to be with me. I want to do something I do not like to be with her.
To want and to like are different things. Unfortunately our society mixes them up. The ideal of our Society is hedonistic: everybody must want always what he/she likes.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

It is not unreasonable if there is no desire. Forcing herself is going to make her upset, which isn’t going to make her husband feel any better.

The theory of marriage debt should be abolished. It has been already.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

Suppose you woke up one morning and told your wife you were too tired for work and had a headache. All things being equal, and supposing you usually do go to work and support your family, your wife would probably be ok with you staying at home one day. What if you didn’t feel like it the next morning? What if you stayed home for weeks and then months? How long would it be before she changed the locks on you?

In my mind it is about time to tell her to put out or get out. ** Do what it takes to get over your problem and do it quickly. ** I don’t see how you put up with it. I wouldn’t tolerate that kind of treatment from my wife, nor would she tolerate it from me.

Wow. Just…wow. This is so lacking in compassion and love, I can’t even wrap my head around it.

To the OP: I am sorry for your troubles. I hope you and your wife get together soon to discuss this in detail. I wonder if your telling her you are willing to forgo sex altogether will give her the courage to talk to you openly about how she feels.

I think an important topic in your discussion would be whether or not she WANTS to want sex.

 

[tafan]

The theory of marriage debt should be abolished. It has been already.

Two points:

1. it is not a theory, it is a teaching of the Church.
2. If you make the claim this teaching has been abolished, you should provide evidence. Ample evidence has been presented to the contrary on this and other threads of this forum

 

[MadMax73]

Thank you to all who have sent prayers my way. Despite times of sorrow I am doing well in my suffering.

For the many who have mentioned that their is a sin in withholding the marriage debt from your spouse. This is another reason I choose celibacy. If I don’t ask it is not a sin on her part.

There is a great deal of this that is my problem as well. I don’t want someone to have sex with who has no interest in it done as a favor to me. I am not an animal, there is no biological necessity for me to have sex. If I were to “instruct the ignorant” and she made love to me out of obligation that would not make the situation that I first described better.

More thoughts later.

Peace

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Two points:

1. it is not a theory, it is a teaching of the Church.
2. If you make the claim this teaching has been abolished, you should provide evidence. Ample evidence has been presented to the contrary on this and other threads of this forum

I am a man and I feel that this is a man-balanced item.
Am I wrong? I think man wishes more that women. So, I want it, come on, dear wife, if you say no you are committing a sin. And the poor wife, there she goes, not to go to well, to do the job… That is what I feel.
The question is not that my body belongs to my wife and my wife’s body belongs to me. It is the was it is said: “debt”? Is this a way of saying things? I know that this is a translation from latin and that the word has got 1000 years but I feel the wording is unfortunate.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Thank you to all who have sent prayers my way. Despite times of sorrow I am doing well in my suffering.

For the many who have mentioned that their is a sin in withholding the marriage debt from your spouse. This is another reason I choose celibacy. If I don’t ask it is not a sin on her part.

There is a great deal of this that is my problem as well. I don’t want someone to have sex with who has no interest in it done as a favor to me. I am not an animal, there is no biological necessity for me to have sex. If I were to “instruct the ignorant” and she made love to me out of obligation that would not make the situation that I first described better.

More thoughts later.

Peace

Boy, I think you are overdoing it.
I do not believe she has no interest in you. I simply cannot believe that.
From my experience, there is a way of entering with one’s wife that she likes. Other ways, she doesn’t, and it is not because she does not love you.
The woman’s body is like a high-tech marvelous piece of God’s work. You must know how to touch, what to say, when to move forward or backward, the sequence of moves, the music on her ears. It is not easy for she is a fragile piece of jewelry. Not like men who are bulldozers.
Dont feel hurt. Dont go into celibacy. Never give up. She is your best friend and I think she is hurt too by the lack of sex. But understanding women is not human, it is God-given gift and you must work hard (me, after 25 years of marriage and know nothing !!!) to understand them. But…it is worhtwhile…

 

[larsenl1]

I am a man and I feel that this is a man-balanced item.
Am I wrong? I think man wishes more that women. So, I want it, come on, dear wife, if you say no you are committing a sin. And the poor wife, there she goes, not to go to well, to do the job… That is what I feel.
The question is not that my body belongs to my wife and my wife’s body belongs to me. It is the was it is said: “debt”? Is this a way of saying things? I know that this is a translation from latin and that the word has got 1000 years but I feel the wording is unfortunate.

You are wrong, and in my opinion somewhat of a misogynist. Women have great desire. I have a much more active libido than my husband. I want it and he does not. How do you manage that? A woman’s sex drive often gets intense in her 40’s and a man’s sometimes decrease after 30’s.

I am sure that you mean well but your blanket statements can come off as chauvinistic,

Me Tarzan You Jane.

Please give more consideration to your words, unless of course you really are a chauvinist. Then I guess you are just being yourself.

 

[MadMax73]

Boy, I think you are overdoing it.
I do not believe she has no interest in you. I simply cannot believe that.
From my experience, there is a way of entering with one’s wife that she likes. Other ways, she doesn’t, and it is not because she does not love you.
The woman’s body is like a high-tech marvelous piece of God’s work. You must know how to touch, what to say, when to move forward or backward, the sequence of moves, the music on her ears. It is not easy for she is a fragile piece of jewelry. Not like men who are bulldozers.
Dont feel hurt. Dont go into celibacy. Never give up. She is your best friend and I think she is hurt too by the lack of sex. But understanding women is not human, it is God-given gift and you must work hard (me, after 25 years of marriage and know nothing !!!) to understand them. But…it is worhtwhile…

Does your wife touch you spontaneously? Does she embrace you back when you hug her? Does she snuggle into you when move close to her in bed (non sexual situations) or does she roll over and move away?

I am trying to explain to you that my wife attaches no importance to physical contact and clearly shows signs that she enjoys freedom of personal space. I am saying that marital debt aside that is what I miss. To me those are all part of sexuality not even as parts of foreplay. Even more than the rejection from lovemaking those rejections are painful.

I truly feel that I have been called to be Christ and suffer for my bride lest she undergo the test herself.

I am no longer rejected so I don’t have that sorrow, and I can sleep well at night not worrying about the what-if-this-is-the-night issues, and through increased prayer I am closer to God now more than ever.

As for our relationship, nothing is different. We have gone out to dinner and enjoyed each other’s company at home.

My problem is that I am almost 40 going on 18 and she is 40 going on 81.

 

[tafan]

I am a man and I feel that this is a man-balanced item.
Am I wrong? I think man wishes more that women. So, I want it, come on, dear wife, if you say no you are committing a sin. And the poor wife, there she goes, not to go to well, to do the job… That is what I feel.
The question is not that my body belongs to my wife and my wife’s body belongs to me. It is the was it is said: “debt”? Is this a way of saying things? I know that this is a translation from latin and that the word has got 1000 years but I feel the wording is unfortunate.

You have obviously not read the references I posted, and have little understanding of the marriage debt. No it is not a way of saying things between a husband and a wife. But it is a very good way of understanding obligations between a husband and a wife. We owe each other ourselves, completely and unreservedly. And we owe it in love.

 

[tafan]

Thank you to all who have sent prayers my way. Despite times of sorrow I am doing well in my suffering.

For the many who have mentioned that their is a sin in withholding the marriage debt from your spouse. This is another reason I choose celibacy. If I don’t ask it is not a sin on her part.

There is a great deal of this that is my problem as well. I don’t want someone to have sex with who has no interest in it done as a favor to me. I am not an animal, there is no biological necessity for me to have sex. If I were to “instruct the ignorant” and she made love to me out of obligation that would not make the situation that I first described better.

More thoughts later.

Peace

MadMax, I can understand how, in concern for your wife’s soul, you find that not placing her in the near occasion of sin is the correct course of action. You very well may be right. That is your decision and I will not comment on that sacrifice you are making.

I would add the following advice:

I am assuming your wife is a good Catholic and is simply ignorant of some of her marital responsibilities. So I do not believe she is culpable for the sins, but any objective observer based on the comments of your first couple of posts, would say she is committing sins, which are grave in nature.

I would say, as a Catholic spouse, I believe you have an actual obligation in helping her form her conscience in this matter. We are all supposed to help our spouses get to heaven. Sin, even if no one is culpable for it due to ignorance, still brings evil into the world. In this case, that eveil is the suffereing you have endured. And a person who committs sins, even through not culpable due to ignorance; will still have to answer for not forming their conscience correctly (especially if they are Catholic and had the teachings available to them and have no ingrained rejection instinct to all things Catholic) and will likely have to atone for the pain brought into the world as a result of those sins.

Even if we disregarding the the sin of unreasonable denying the marital debt, she still may have atonement. Sin has an effect on us: making us be blind to other sins. From a moral standpoint your wife may have no idea about her maritial obligations, but she would have to be blind and completely insensitive to at least not know she has caused you pain. And it is possibly the sin which has made her insensitive to this.

So, your wife can atone for these sins now, in this life, or later in purgatory; it is somewhat up to you to decide, IMO. And while she struggles with all of this, again, you very well may be right to not place on her the burden of further decisions along these lines.

And it might have the side effect, once she really understands the situation, to making her have actual desire again. Obligations, which are founded in love, owed to others bring joy to our lives when we fulfill them. Almost always. Is there any reason to believe this obligation would be any difference for your wife.

Those are some of my thoughts, I admit to making assumptions about your exact situation, and they are all meant to be expressed with the best of intentiongs.

I cannot stress enough to read section 1f and 1g in the page I posted before. twotlj.org/G-2-9-E.html (but all of section 1 is very applicable) Use it as a resource.

God bless you always