I need ADVICE! Badly!

[Xantippe]

By the way, I have a close relative who is a psychologist, and one of her rules is DON’T MIND READ. Don’t assume that there’s always some self-serving, manipulative plan behind every interaction.

Take whatever he does or says at face value, without assigning some devious motivation to it (even if there probably is). He makes dinner–great! He rubs your back–great! Just accept it and do what you know is the right thing to do, whatever that is. Don’t assume evil intent, but don’t allow yourself to be bought off with back rubs or nice dinners. If you need a cheaper rental or more income, you need a cheaper rental or more income–a back rub doesn’t change that.

 

[EasterJoy]

By the way, I have a close relative who is a psychologist, and one of her rules is DON’T MIND READ. Don’t assume that there’s always some self-serving, manipulative plan behind every interaction.

Take whatever he does or says at face value, without assigning some devious motivation to it (even if there probably is). He makes dinner–great! He rubs your back–great! Just accept it and do what you know is the right thing to do, whatever that is. Don’t assume evil intent, but don’t allow yourself to be bought off with back rubs or nice dinners. If you need a cheaper rental or more income, you need a cheaper rental or more income–a back rub doesn’t change that.

This is very good…that is, not to try to read favors as if they were tea leaves and not to let what you wish were true change what you actually see in front of you. Perfect.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well it’s our anniversary today. I had to be the first one to say something. . He’s back to being pleasant and offering to rub my shoulders etc… But I can still sense he is upset with me.

So I’m also feeling uncomfortable about intimacy. He won’t initiate because he never does (saying he feels like a bother) so I feel like I have to…

Ugh. Am I a terrible wife if I don’t? We haven’t been intimate In a long time.

You can review your life and know what a shoulder rub means or doesn’t mean. Use that, not wishful or pessimistic thinking. When you hear him apologize for putting so much onto you or really offering to make his own phone calls–I do not mean “offering” in a way that is actually a poorly-veiled guilt trip, in the style of the bad Jewish mother jokes–that is when you will have seen a real change.

If you aren’t up for sex and he doesn’t initiate it, don’t force the issue.

You are not a terrible wife. (A truly terrible husband or wife, BTW, almost never asks that question. Think about that, too.)

 

[Xantippe]

EasterJoy said:

“When you hear him apologize for putting so much onto you or really offering to make his own phone calls–I do not mean “offering” in a way that is actually a poorly-veiled guilt trip, in the style of the bad Jewish mother jokes–that is when you will have seen a real change.”

I think that’s sort of a recurrent pattern with the OP and her husband–he makes some sort of outlandishly self-sacrificing (in his opinion) offer, and she is supposed to refuse it, and thus continues to feel irritated, even after he’s made the offer, because it was so unrealistic. I would suggest taking him up on it the next time he offers to do something.

Example:

OP’s husband: I’ll do anything for us to keep this rental and stay out of bankruptcy! I’ll put on a suit and work a 40-hour week! I’ll make 20 cold calls tomorrow!

OP [warmly and with a team player voice]: That’s great, honey. I appreciate that so much. You go ahead and do that. Meanwhile, I’m going to start working on getting us out of this house and into something cheaper. If you manage to get a job or at least $4,000 in freelance income in 30 days, we can stay in the house another month. If you don’t manage to make $4k by the end of the month, I’m going to go ahead with the move plan. We need $4,0000 every month from you to pay for the house. Oh, and by the way, it’s budget night tonight. I’ll see you tonight after little Timmy goes to bed.

Adjust that to your particular circumstances. If you don’t think you can say it to his face, say it by email. And then follow through. There’s a lot of not following through with you two.

 

[mega1]

This is good advice. You are right, there’s not a lot of follow through.

Here’s the thing that I need to decide first. Are we going to move together to a cheaper place…or am I going to move alone. That’s what is weighing on my mind.

I made a therapy appt for this week…to get back in and talk with someone. I know it is critical. And, I have to admit…I’ve gone through a lot over the last couple of months. Started a side business, took a new job, moved across the country, filed bankruptcy and am now responsible for helping facilitate my husband’s income too.

That’s a lot …when I stand back and look at it from that standpoint. I think this biggest concern is HOW LONG it will take for me to get anywhere in therapy…since there’s SO MUCH to cover!

Not to mention having a really useless situation at home.

Here’s another interesting tidbit…I need to have surgery on my nose. I broke it many years ago and now it’s impossible for me to breathe out of it. It’s just a risk …long term. Anyway, I need to have it fixed and I will have to pay out of pocket …because insurance won’t cover all of it. My husband is WELL AWARE of this and I was talking about how I can’t breathe right when I work out and he got upset and said I should get the surgery! I said…with what $$$? First, he got angry with the insurance provider for not covering all of it and THEN he suggested we put it on a credit card.

That’s is a REALLY good example of how it just won’t sink in…and if he REALLY cared about me…I feel like he would put in EXTRA effort to save money for my surgery. But, clearly, that’s a stretch.

 

[Xantippe]

“Here’s the thing that I need to decide first. Are we going to move together to a cheaper place…or am I going to move alone. That’s what is weighing on my mind.”

If he wants to move with you, take him. Once you have a cheaper place, you’ll be less burdened and hopefully will be able to breathe a little more freely.

“That’s a lot …when I stand back and look at it from that standpoint. I think this biggest concern is HOW LONG it will take for me to get anywhere in therapy…since there’s SO MUCH to cover!”

When you interview therapists, pay particular attention to the timeline they give you. The more effective therapists will not keep you in therapy indefinitely. You can fix particular things quickly, if you have a good therapist and are doing your homework.

“That’s is a REALLY good example of how it just won’t sink in…and if he REALLY cared about me…I feel like he would put in EXTRA effort to save money for my surgery. But, clearly, that’s a stretch.”

I expect he doesn’t really understand the word “save” (I didn’t for a long time, myself). He sounds like a manana kind of guy–he probably doesn’t quite get the idea of wanting something, saving for it, and getting it, rather than getting it and then paying and paying and paying for it.

 

[mega1]

He won’t move. He says we’ve moved already …and that he won’t do it again. He is clear that he won’t allow it. Says it would cost too much to move (he would hire movers or leave it to me) and then we’d have to inconvenience our son. He won’t do it. And says that he would be risking a lawsuit…considering the lease.

Seriously…he ain’t going anywhere. And when I said it’s not his decision…he says it’s not “MY” decision and if I do it alone…than that’s not a marriage. He says he does have income…and he does. At least this month… But, he is NOT moving.

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy said:

“When you hear him apologize for putting so much onto you or really offering to make his own phone calls–I do not mean “offering” in a way that is actually a poorly-veiled guilt trip, in the style of the bad Jewish mother jokes–that is when you will have seen a real change.”

I think that’s sort of a recurrent pattern with the OP and her husband–he makes some sort of outlandishly self-sacrificing (in his opinion) offer, and she is supposed to refuse it, and thus continues to feel irritated, even after he’s made the offer, because it was so unrealistic. I would suggest taking him up on it the next time he offers to do something.

Example:

OP’s husband: I’ll do anything for us to keep this rental and stay out of bankruptcy! I’ll put on a suit and work a 40-hour week! I’ll make 20 cold calls tomorrow!

OP [warmly and with a team player voice]: That’s great, honey. I appreciate that so much. You go ahead and do that. Meanwhile, I’m going to start working on getting us out of this house and into something cheaper. If you manage to get a job or at least $4,000 in freelance income in 30 days, we can stay in the house another month. If you don’t manage to make $4k by the end of the month, I’m going to go ahead with the move plan. We need $4,0000 every month from you to pay for the house. Oh, and by the way, it’s budget night tonight. I’ll see you tonight after little Timmy goes to bed.

Adjust that to your particular circumstances. If you don’t think you can say it to his face, say it by email. And then follow through. There’s a lot of not following through with you two.

Exactly. I had a friend whose parent did the hidden guilt trip thing. He’d take her kind offers and ignore the guilt trips. If she tried to voice the guilt trip, he wouldn’t buy it. He didn’t feel the least bit bound by “hidden” strings. If she wanted this-for-that, he agreed if he was inclined and let it go if he wasn’t. IOW, he let himself be guided by a real sense of right and wrong, not some false thing sense of obligation she might try to make up in order to control him.

 

[mega1]

He won’t move. He says we’ve moved already …and that he won’t do it again. He is clear that he won’t allow it. Says it would cost too much to move (he would hire movers or leave it to me) and then we’d have to inconvenience our son. He won’t do it. And says that he would be risking a lawsuit…considering the lease.

Seriously…he ain’t going anywhere. And when I said it’s not his decision…he says it’s not “MY” decision and if I do it alone…than that’s not a marriage. He says he does have income…and he does. At least this month… But, he is NOT moving.

 

[Xantippe]

mega1 said:

“He won’t move. He says we’ve moved already …and that he won’t do it again. He is clear that he won’t allow it. Says it would cost too much to move (he would hire movers or leave it to me) and then we’d have to inconvenience our son. He won’t do it. And says that he would be risking a lawsuit…considering the lease.”

“Seriously…he ain’t going anywhere. And when I said it’s not his decision…he says it’s not “MY” decision and if I do it alone…than that’s not a marriage. He says he does have income…and he does. At least this month… But, he is NOT moving.”

If you stop paying the lease and he doesn’t have the money to pay the lease consistently, he will be moving. Point that out to him. This is an opportunity for that follow-through we’ve been talking about. (Check in with a lawyer to make sure this is all kosher.)

As far as the “this is not a marriage,” tell him that within a certain price range, he gets the choice of the apartment you move to. That’s the compromise. You get to decide how much the apartment will cost, and he gets to decide which one. (This may go badly, but it’s giving him a chance.)

I recently paid something like $1100 (plus some cash tips) to have our family of five’s stuff packed up and moved about 15 blocks–we moved with three kids, one of whom was a 7-month-old baby at the time. It was OK. We also paid for cleaning crews in order to have the old place spotless for handover and there was some spackling of holes in walls. It was a rough couple of days, but it’s not a big deal looking at it from the long term. Within a month, you’ll be settled. Our oldest is 11, and she’s lived in five different homes.

It’s not security to live in a house you can’t afford.

 

[mega1]

Yes, this is true. Well, he just told me that his current projects for this month have already been invoiced. He is definitely coasting on that money…and not proactively looking for anything else…really.

Here’s something else that’s interesting. I am in a business mastermind group. And today, I started tallying up all of the “mishaps” caused by my husband…directly or indirectly. In 2 months, he’s cost me at LEAST 50k worth of work.

And he’s not a dumb guy! He really isn’t. In one case…I landed a huge consulting contract with a company --and they were to pay in advance via wire. So, I called my husband and asked him to handle that …since I was at my “day job”. He invoiced them and then gave them a wire number. He initially gave them the wrong wire number…and I corrected it for him. Then, I found out (too late) that the wire was being refused by our bank…because the names didn’t match up. Turns out he gave them the account in our son’s name. Totally NOT the same name. So…the company bailed on me…and said they had never had so much trouble completing a wire. That was about 35k right there…

I forgave my husband because he said that the bank told him that since he was the trust on the account for our young son…it shouldn’t have made a difference. But, he fought and fought…saying it was okay and it was NOT.

You see …it’s always something.

 

[EasterJoy]

You can throw a piano farther than you can trust him. Get a real administrative assistant, and quit entrusting him with that stuff.

 

[MJJean]

He won’t move. He says we’ve moved already …and that he won’t do it again. He is clear that he won’t allow it. Says it would cost too much to move (he would hire movers or leave it to me) and then we’d have to inconvenience our son. He won’t do it. And says that he would be risking a lawsuit…considering the lease.

Seriously…he ain’t going anywhere. And when I said it’s not his decision…he says it’s not “MY” decision and if I do it alone…than that’s not a marriage. He says he does have income…and he does. At least this month… But, he is NOT moving.

I laughed at this. I really did. Maybe I’m a real pain, but that wouldn’t have come close to flying with me. I remember when I was married to my ex and I was the only one working. I knew we had to move to a cheaper place and my ex was totally against it. I simply pointed out I was the working party and I was moving. If he wanted to stay in the house we were in he was welcome to do so. However, I wasn’t paying for it. Period. End of conversation.

I made the arrangements and began packing. He ranted and raved and whined and cajoled and I just ignored it. He even tried the “its not a marriage” thing. I pointed out that me being the only responsible party wasn’t a marriage, either, and that he should be happy I was willing to let him come with me when I moved…

You should try it. It’s empowering. If your husband wants to be an equal partner then he can hop on the grown up bus and start being responsible. If not, he can accept your judgement. Either put up or shut up, in a nutshell.

You can throw a piano farther than you can trust him. Get a real administrative assistant, and quit entrusting him with that stuff.

No joke! If you are already having financial issues and in bankruptcy (which may not have been necessary had you been able to keep the estimated 50k he has cost you through his irresponsibility) then it seems pretty obvious you cannot trust this man nor can you rely on him and need to either handle these transactions yourself or find someone who would be willing to do it for you on a pay as you go basis.

For example, me. I am a stay at home mom and trustworthy. If we knew each other you could offer to pay me a very small fee to handle things such as the wire transfer or whatever. I’m sure there is a young person going to college or a stay at home mom or part time working mom or maybe even a retired person in the area who would be happy to act as your assistant on an as needed basis for a bit of extra cash here and there. Lord knows you’d have more money to put toward debt and living expenses and you’d be helping someone else out, too.

 

[EasterJoy]

I laughed at this. I really did. Maybe I’m a real pain, but that wouldn’t have come close to flying with me. I remember when I was married to my ex and I was the only one working. I knew we had to move to a cheaper place and my ex was totally against it. I simply pointed out I was the working party and I was moving. If he wanted to stay in the house we were in he was welcome to do so. However, I wasn’t paying for it. Period. End of conversation.

I made the arrangements and began packing. He ranted and raved and whined and cajoled and I just ignored it. He even tried the “its not a marriage” thing. I pointed out that me being the only responsible party wasn’t a marriage, either, and that he should be happy I was willing to let him come with me when I moved…

You should try it. It’s empowering. If your husband wants to be an equal partner then he can hop on the grown up bus and start being responsible. If not, he can accept your judgement. Either put up or shut up, in a nutshell.

No joke! If you are already having financial issues and in bankruptcy (which may not have been necessary had you been able to keep the estimated 50k he has cost you through his irresponsibility) then it seems pretty obvious you cannot trust this man nor can you rely on him and need to either handle these transactions yourself or find someone who would be willing to do it for you on a pay as you go basis.

For example, me. I am a stay at home mom and trustworthy. If we knew each other you could offer to pay me a very small fee to handle things such as the wire transfer or whatever. I’m sure there is a young person going to college or a stay at home mom or part time working mom or maybe even a retired person in the area who would be happy to act as your assistant on an as needed basis for a bit of extra cash here and there. Lord knows you’d have more money to put toward debt and living expenses and you’d be helping someone else out, too.

I think you can find an administrative person who works for several clients out of his or her home that will handle things like this for a small fee. If you know someone who used to work in an administrative capacity before becoming a SAHM or a caretaker for an elderly parent, that might be a good candidate.

Maybe her husband has some sort of attention-deficit issues, and just should not be in charge of organizing anything.

 

[mega1]

Well, here’s the rub with that…

I never ever trusted him with this type of stuff…because I knew it was trouble. But, when we went to therapy …the therapist said I HAD to start trusting him and delegating. I was trying to control everything and then getting upset that I was doing it all…so she said I had to start giving him things to do.

So…that’s why I started delegating some. Handling the invoice and account number verification …should be administrative and NOT high pressure. I thought that was a good thing to delegate. But, it burned me… to the tune of 40k.

Setting up a lead page (something he is familiar with)…should have been another administrative thing. I should NOT have to avoid having him do these little things…you know?

I realize now…that I must. It’s just impossible to avoid…but I was trying to follow what the therapist said…

Clearly -that can’t work.

 

[Jessie5000]

First time poster. Thank you for your time and insight.

I’ve been married for 13 years. Coming up on our anniversary this week. We have one child.
We have had a tumultuous past. We’ve separated a couple of times, considered divorce (I have) and gone through therapy and religious counseling.

I’m writing now, because I am miserable. I am the breadwinner in the family and I work SO much. A few months ago, I was offered a job transfer and my husband encouraged me to take it, claiming that the extra money and lack of state taxes would help him branch out and start his own business… He WAS in the same industry that I’m in…and he was quite successful, although he made about half of my salary because of his area of expertise. Without getting into every detail, I followed his “gut feeling” and took the job and now I am working 50 plus hrs a week on my “day job” and he is counting on ME to get leads for his “business”. I am having to learn advertising, marketing, business plans etc…because he says “it’s over his head”. He seems to have no desire to learn and grow in other areas of business and I am basically working 80 hours a week. I never see our son…because I am always working.

Why, you ask? Because “I” am in bankruptcy. My hsubad always had expensive taste etc and I was the enabler. Then, he said he wanted ME to file bankruptcy to save his credit status …so ONE of us could still get credit and home lease etc.

So…that’s where we are at…I’m in bankruptcy. He’s avoided ALL elements of it…including going to the hearing with me. He didn’t go or do any of the LENGTHY paperwork. I am now trying to dig us out of this enormous hole and I can’t do it alone. I’ve told him this…and he said “I’m trying”. He got a temporary consulting job for a couple of months where he works 15 hours a week…then he’s Mr. Mom. Picks up our son, does homework, makes dinner, laundry…and doesn’t do any work to grow “his” business. I asked him for help recently…to set something up online for a webinar I was doing to recruit leads for him and he stalled and stalled and didn’t even do it. I had to pay someone…

He watches his football games…plays video games with our son… and is overall…a decent father. But, I have lost all respect for him…and there wasn’t much to begin with…considering how poorly he’s treated me in other areas over the years.

For example, he calls me at work to find out if I’ve called xyz repair man…or if I have set up xyz appt for the dog… I want to just SCREAM! I am truly ready to walk out…I just don’t want to do that to our son. But, he isn’t getting a great example of a husband/wife.

He refuses therapy…says been there…done that…and he didn’t like it. At this point, is this marriage worth saving? No sex…mainly because I have no desire to initiate and he doesn’t.

I don’t laugh anymore…I don’t sleep well because I’m so scared about money and taxes…he seems to care less…

Thoughts?

Dump the bum. I know this sounds harsh but your marriage is a farce. You have enabled, tried therapy but a marriage is a partnership and this is not evident.

I say, outline your expectations for him. This should include, going for therapy, getting a job, taking responsibility for his financial mistakes and growing his business, providing you a rest so you are not working around the clock, acting like a husband. If he can not do this, kick him to the curb and move on. I had a priest once sing to me in confession…he saung, “You have to wash that girl right out of your hair.” It was good advice. Marriage is not enabling and that is what you are doing. To stay means you are teaching your son how to treat his future wife. As Christians we are always told to love others but forget we are also to love ourself. This marriage is a joke and you need to quit being a dorrmat. Go to the lawyer and work on the divorce in conjunction with bankruptcy where he takes responsibility. Nowhere does the church teach you are a dorr mmat for your husband. Pull up your socks and shock the so called man into reality. One can always be open to reconciliation later when he is acting like a responsible adult and has a well established track record (at least a year or two) of functioning like a grown man instead of a man spoiled by an enabling wife.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, here’s the rub with that…

I never ever trusted him with this type of stuff…because I knew it was trouble. But, when we went to therapy …the therapist said I HAD to start trusting him and delegating. I was trying to control everything and then getting upset that I was doing it all…so she said I had to start giving him things to do.

So…that’s why I started delegating some. Handling the invoice and account number verification …should be administrative and NOT high pressure. I thought that was a good thing to delegate. But, it burned me… to the tune of 40k.

Setting up a lead page (something he is familiar with)…should have been another administrative thing. I should NOT have to avoid having him do these little things…you know?

I realize now…that I must. It’s just impossible to avoid…but I was trying to follow what the therapist said…

Clearly -that can’t work.

You did what the therapist said, and he failed to do what he said he needed. Now… when he starts coming through on commitments to himself, maybe he can ask you to re-visit that. Until then , if he wants you to trust him, trust him with the care of his career and reputation, not yours.

“Fool me once: Shame on you.
Fool me twice: Shame on me.”

If you ever go back for more therapy, get somebody who has experience with alcoholics, addicts, borderline personalities and others prone to try to manipulate. You need somebody who won’t be played by a client.

 

[Xantippe]

mega1,

Your husband has a pattern of choking when the stakes are high. Bear that in mind.

 

[MJJean]

I think you can find an administrative person who works for several clients out of his or her home that will handle things like this for a small fee. If you know someone who used to work in an administrative capacity before becoming a SAHM or a caretaker for an elderly parent, that might be a good candidate.

Maybe her husband has some sort of attention-deficit issues, and just should not be in charge of organizing anything.

Could also go to the local community college and ask the professors for recommendations. There are usually some young people close to business or related degrees looking for real world experience and/or extra cash.

Well, here’s the rub with that…

I never ever trusted him with this type of stuff…because I knew it was trouble. But, when we went to therapy …the therapist said I HAD to start trusting him and delegating. I was trying to control everything and then getting upset that I was doing it all…so she said I had to start giving him things to do.

So…that’s why I started delegating some. Handling the invoice and account number verification …should be administrative and NOT high pressure. I thought that was a good thing to delegate. But, it burned me… to the tune of 40k.

Setting up a lead page (something he is familiar with)…should have been another administrative thing. I should NOT have to avoid having him do these little things…you know?

I realize now…that I must. It’s just impossible to avoid…but I was trying to follow what the therapist said…

Clearly -that can’t work.

Yeah, sometimes therapists fail to recognize the reality of a situation. Seems like this one got conned by your husband and gave advice based on that. The good news is, you tried. The bad news is it cost you a lot more than it should.

If you’re going to stay in this marriage you’re going to have to accept that you cannot trust your husband to handle anything important like finances (including access to the bank account…start one in your name if you don’t already have one, put all the money there, instruct the bank NOT to allow him any information, and give him pocket money as needed and in amounts you are comfortable with) or business related things or even the paperwork at school. You’re going to have to resign yourself to living almost as if you were single. And that does include making decisions such as where to live.

If you want out, get a lawyer and move on.

I, personally, don’t see a person like your husband making any real and lasting changes. He’s already done counseling more than once, he’s made mistakes that cost you a lot of needed money as if it was no big deal, his behavior has damaged your business reputation (word of mouth and customer/client reviews are everything!) and he’s even endangered your son by failing to fill out a simple form, get it signed, and return it in a timely manner. If he was going to wake up he would have done it long before now.

My ex blamed me for everything for a time. Heck, maybe he still does He behaved badly because I didn’t love him enough, because I was a witch (only w a B in place of the W), I didn’t blah blah…I did blah blah. I started to wonder if maybe it was me. Then I couldn’t take it anymore, filed for divorce, and moved on with my life. We’ve been divorced for 11 years and separated nearly 14 years ago.

He’s still the exact same. He’s remarried, he and his new wife have 2 children under the age of 6, they all live with his parents, he hasn’t had a job in 5 years and the jobs he had before that didn’t last for more than 6 months at a stretch. He’s just turned 40 years old. Obviously, if it was truly me, he would have gotten his life straight. But he didn’t because the truth is that it really was him. He was/is just incapable of growing up and behaving as a husband and father should. He was/is just simply incapable of impulse control and of assuming responsibility.

Maybe he’s mentally ill, maybe he’s just an arse. Doesn’t matter. What matters is that I did the right thing in removing both myself and my kids from the situation. We’re physically, emotionally, and financially much better off.

 

[MJJean]

mega1,

Your husband has a pattern of choking when the stakes are high. Bear that in mind.

Eh, some people aren’t able to handle pressure. I get that. But a simple wire transfer or filling out a medication form at school aren’t exactly high stakes. It seems this guy chokes whenever a stake appears, high stake or not.