I need explanations please about baptism

[Pax]

I see you walked right by my point and refused to answer it. He wasn’t baptized. You know it and I know it.

You are not thinking about what has been said on this thread. If you had read my posts you would know that I tend to agree with your “assumption” that the good thief did not receive water baptism. Nevertheless, the point I made to you is quite valid and I did not simply walk right by your point or refuse to answer it. I answered your view in other posts and believe that I did so thoroughly.

Your efforts to deflect attention away from the point I made does not let you off the hook and obligation for facing up to it.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

2 Timothy 1:9
“who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity…”

Work your way in all you who THINK you know the truth. One day we will all stand before Him and give an account. When I stand before Him it will be relying on His Blood alone. My life, radically changed by His sacrifice I will bow before him. And everything I have done for His sake (the things which are not burned up), I will cast those crowns before Him. And He will say “well done good and faithfull servant”.
You on the other hand, will be surprised when you try to add all those things to the work He has already acomplished. You can pray to whoever you want at that time - it will do you no good.
I am exiting this forum - not to return. Some will say good ridance (and that’s okay). I learned some valuable things which will help me when witnessing to the lost.
May the Lord open your eyes to the Truth of His Word…

mdifrancesco in Christ,

Catholics do not believe that we can work our way into heaven. You are completely off the rails with this accusation and it clearly shows a lack of appreciation and understanding of Catholic teaching.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

You keep making that completely unfounded assumption.
There is no way you can prove it. Period

Ignatius, to be fair, while it is entirely possible that Dismas may have gotten the baptism of John, it seems improbable that he could have gotten baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit prior to Jesus’ resurrection since that formula was not yet in place. Nevertheless, this is not proof that baptism isn’t required now that it is in place.

It is clear from Church teaching that some people who lived before Jesus sacrifice were allowed into heaven. Afterall, that’s why Jesus descended to the dead, right? He preached to the righteous who had died and assumedly those that chose to, were allowed into heaven. We know that Dismas confessed his sins and and asked to be allowed into heaven so he would seem to qualify with the group who died before Jesus’ resurrection.

Further, we believe that if you are physically prevented from being baptized when you desire to be baptized, then God in his fairness and mercy will not hold it against you.

So either way, the fact that Dismas was probably not physically baptized does not detract from Jesus statement that to gain eternal life, you must be born again of water and spirit (John 3)and his directive to baptize all the nations (Matthew 28).

 

[diggerdomer]

I see you walked right by my point and refused to answer it. He wasn’t baptized. You know it and I know it.

I thought you weren’t returning?
Which is it? Is there a point in continuing to respond to you or not?

 

[kepha1]

2 Timothy 1:9
“who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity…”

not according to our works

In this verse, St. Paul means "works of the law”, (“ergon nomou”)
not “good works” (ergois agathois).

 

[JustaServant]

2 Timothy 1:9
“who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity…”

Work your way in all you who THINK you know the truth. One day we will all stand before Him and give an account. When I stand before Him it will be relying on His Blood alone. My life, radically changed by His sacrifice I will bow before him. And everything I have done for His sake (the things which are not burned up), I will cast those crowns before Him. And He will say “well done good and faithfull servant”.
You on the other hand, will be surprised when you try to add all those things to the work He has already acomplished. You can pray to whoever you want at that time - it will do you no good.
I am exiting this forum - not to return. Some will say good ridance (and that’s okay).** I learned some valuable things which will help me when witnessing to the lost.**
May the Lord open your eyes to the Truth of His Word…

Please note the bolded and underlined sentence.
There you have it folks. At least the guy is honest.
So many of these evangelicals come to this forum for the express purpose of ‘soul winning’. Either here or so they can ‘witness’ to those poor, Hell-bound, uncatechized Catholics they know.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

you are now taking the stance that god can break his rules. That is not the way it works. If that was the case, jesus would have never had to die. God would have just changed the rules. He takes his word seriously - he watches over it even before his own name.
And as far as the command of baptism before he died… That one is not even worth responding to. Read the new testament. Jesus was baptized. People got saved and were baptized. (and yes… His command was to be baptized - but not as a requirement for salvation). But now you want to use that as an argument? Why then did people get baptized before jesus died? Answer: His requirements never changed. It was a command of obedience. Period.

Hmmm, not sure what happened with my quote there - almost all of my capitalization went missing. I did read that you have decided to part company with us, but for the sake of lurkers:

God doesn’t make the rules for Himself, but for us. If I, as a parent, tell my child that the rule in this house is that they must be in bed at 9:00 on school nights, does that mean that the parent also has to go to bed at this time?

I am fully aware of the accounts of baptisms before Jesus gave up His life for us, but it was not until His ascension that the command was given to baptize, “in the Name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Yes, baptism is a command. One which, if spurned, can result in failing to get to Heaven. If a person desires baptism and is for whatever reason unable to be baptized - if they’re nailed to a cross and about to die it’s just not possible - God knows that they would have kept that command had it been in their power to do so.

 

[adstrinity]

I don’t know if this part of it has been mentioned but, yes, baptizing babies is efficent and effective and saves the baby because of the parent’s (and Godparent’s?) intent for the baby. In one of the Gospels there is an occurance where Jesus is in a full house and they want him to heal a man and the only way they can get the man in there is through the roof. It is because of the belief and intent of the people in the house (I think the man was either unconscience or otherwise able to, with clear ability, mentally accept what was happening) that that man was healed. He didn’t have anything to do with it, but, those surrounding did. It is in the same way, we believe those who are there for the child can, since they have the intent, have the baby baptized into God’s Church.

Also, it was shown to me (via the Catechism?) that babies can be sprinkled, poured over, or immerged.

 

[panevino]

I find strong evidence for infant baptism in the story of the passover.
see ex12 below.

with the parents faith saving the life of the child by following gods word and showing belief by striking the blood of the sacrificed lamb on the door of the house…

this is so clearly a precedent that points to parents showing faith in the blood of christ (lamb) through baptism of the child.

its amazing how these two versus point so strongly (to me anyway) to baptism and the eucharist.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’m going to jump in here. To be honest, I myself am somewhat confused by the concept of baptism. I understand that it is a type of consecration of a person to God, and is followed up by the Sacrament of Confirmation which is when an adult makes the same commitment.

My confusion is about several things: first, why is water necessary?? A few months ago someone asked an apologist if an unborn baby could be baptised, as he/she is surrounded by amniotic fluid, which is well, at least pretty much like water. The answer given was “no.” I don’t understand this and I should have opened a thread then but didn’t. Does this mean that an unborn baby who is removed from the womb before birth, undergoes surgery, and is then placed back into the womb, can’t be baptised while outside of the womb? If this is so, why not? Doesn’t the Church believe that the unborn are human beings?? I know that we are born with Original Sin, perhaps not conceived with Original Sin and this may be the reason but I really don’t know.

Everybody knows that when an infant is baptised, he/she is not aware of the fact that this is being done. Lots of times they cry. I think I did (from what I’ve heard, although the photos show me being fairly content and sucking my thumb). Why water? What is so important about water?

Also, why is this Sacrament even performed?? Is it more for the parents and godparents than for the infant?? What about this “salt” thing, where supposedly salt is sprinkled into the infant’s mouth?? I don’t think this is done any more, but does anyone know why it was done in the first place?? And if it isn’t done any more, why not?? Is it OK for the godparents to participate in the ritual and then completely ignore their responsibilities as soon as the ritual is over (my godparents never helped me grow in my spiritual life and basically ignored me until they died)?

When I was confirmed I had no idea what was going on, which doesn’t surprise me because I had no idea what was going on when I received the Sacrament of Holy Communion for the first time. I didn’t understand Confession either, although I understood it more clearly than the other Sacraments. I’ve been told that my Confirmation is valid, but how can that be? To me it was just something my parents told me I had to do and I did it and the only things I remember are wearing some sort of gown, picking a name, and being (softly) slapped across the face by a bishop. I never agreed to become a member of the Church when I was Confirmed, I did it without full knowledge (or even sufficient knowledge) and it was done against my will (if I had not done it I my life living with my parents would have be intolerable beyond belief).

Don’t infants who are not baptised still go to heaven?? Aren’t they Holy Innocents?? They can’t sin. I realize the Church teaches that we are born with Original Sin and this has something to do with baptism, but I can’t seem to find out why. I just get dizzy and my mind shuts down. This also happened when I tried to read this thread. I have some brain damage from all the pain meds I’ve taken for 16 years and sometimes when I try to read about something a bit complicated I can’t process the information normally (I’ve been told the brain damage is reversible).

I have given myself to God and His Church but I feel like I missed out on something. I would be very happy to be re-Confirmed but I don’t believe it is possible as I already was Confirmed.

I am very confused.

I know we are commanded to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But, WHY??

Please don’t think I am attacking anyone or anyone’s views. I submit in all things to the authority of the Church and the Magisterium. I am 100 percent Catholic and have offered my life and my soul to God. Following God’s word is the most important thing in my life and fighting for Truth is part of my commitment (which is why I have my user name).

I need some help with the concept and reality of the Sacrament of Baptism. Can anyone help me?? Please??

 

[paul_c]

I’m going to jump in here. To be honest, I myself am somewhat confused by the concept of baptism. I understand that it is a type of consecration of a person to God, and is followed up by the Sacrament of Confirmation which is when an adult makes the same commitment.

My confusion is about several things: first, why is water necessary?? A few months ago someone asked an apologist if an unborn baby could be baptised, as he/she is surrounded by amniotic fluid, which is well, at least pretty much like water. The answer given was “no.” I don’t understand this and I should have opened a thread then but didn’t. Does this mean that an unborn baby who is removed from the womb before birth, undergoes surgery, and is then placed back into the womb, can’t be baptised while outside of the womb? If this is so, why not? Doesn’t the Church believe that the unborn are human beings?? I know that we are born with Original Sin, perhaps not conceived with Original Sin and this may be the reason but I really don’t know.

Everybody knows that when an infant is baptised, he/she is not aware of the fact that this is being done. Lots of times they cry. I think I did (from what I’ve heard, although the photos show me being fairly content and sucking my thumb). Why water? What is so important about water?

Also, why is this Sacrament even performed?? Is it more for the parents and godparents than for the infant?? What about this “salt” thing, where supposedly salt is sprinkled into the infant’s mouth?? I don’t think this is done any more, but does anyone know why it was done in the first place?? And if it isn’t done any more, why not?? Is it OK for the godparents to participate in the ritual and then completely ignore their responsibilities as soon as the ritual is over (my godparents never helped me grow in my spiritual life and basically ignored me until they died)?

When I was confirmed I had no idea what was going on, which doesn’t surprise me because I had no idea what was going on when I received the Sacrament of Holy Communion for the first time. I didn’t understand Confession either, although I understood it more clearly than the other Sacraments. I’ve been told that my Confirmation is valid, but how can that be? To me it was just something my parents told me I had to do and I did it and the only things I remember are wearing some sort of gown, picking a name, and being (softly) slapped across the face by a bishop. I never agreed to become a member of the Church when I was Confirmed, I did it without full knowledge (or even sufficient knowledge) and it was done against my will (if I had not done it I my life living with my parents would have be intolerable beyond belief).

Don’t infants who are not baptised still go to heaven?? Aren’t they Holy Innocents?? They can’t sin. I realize the Church teaches that we are born with Original Sin and this has something to do with baptism, but I can’t seem to find out why. I just get dizzy and my mind shuts down. This also happened when I tried to read this thread. I have some brain damage from all the pain meds I’ve taken for 16 years and sometimes when I try to read about something a bit complicated I can’t process the information normally (I’ve been told the brain damage is reversible).

I have given myself to God and His Church but I feel like I missed out on something. I would be very happy to be re-Confirmed but I don’t believe it is possible as I already was Confirmed.

I am very confused.

I know we are commanded to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But, WHY??

Please don’t think I am attacking anyone or anyone’s views. I submit in all things to the authority of the Church and the Magisterium. I am 100 percent Catholic and have offered my life and my soul to God. Following God’s word is the most important thing in my life and fighting for Truth is part of my commitment (which is why I have my user name).

I need some help with the concept and reality of the Sacrament of Baptism. Can anyone help me?? Please??

Thhis section on baptism in the catechism should answer all your questions. if not, post again and I’ll try to help you…scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm

 

[Kay_Cee]

The thief that died with Jesus on the cross. Jesus told him, beleive on me and you will be saved.

I don’t recall seeing this anywhere in the Bible. According to my Bible, the only thing Jesus told the good thief was “Amen I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

I don’t see Jesus telling him anything whatsoever about believing. Would you please enlighten me by showing me where Jesus used the word “believe” when talking to the good thief? Book, chapter, and verse, please. Thanks!

 

[Ignatius]

it seems improbable …

God back and read the thread of my conversation rather than take one post inisolation.

mdifrancesco made the manifestly false statement that Dismas was definately not baptized. That is a manifestly false statement. I told him:
There is no way you can prove it. Period

 

[Ignatius]

it seems improbable …

God back and read the thread of my conversation rather than take one post in isolation.

mdifrancesco made the manifestly unsupportable statement that Dismas was definitely not baptized. It is only fair that the one who made the claim has to prove it and so it is up to him to prove it. If you make such a claim you have to prove it.
There is no way you can prove it. Period

 

[diggerdomer]

God back and read the thread of my conversation rather than take one post in isolation.

mdifrancesco made the manifestly unsupportable statement that Dismas was definitely not baptized. It is only fair that the one who made the claim has to prove it and so it is up to him to prove it. If you make such a claim you have to prove it.
There is no way you can prove it. Period

No one can prove whether Dismas was baptized, or not. Period.

So what’s your real point?

 

[LittleSoldier]

I don’t recall seeing this anywhere in the Bible. According to my Bible, the only thing Jesus told the good thief was “Amen I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

I don’t see Jesus telling him anything whatsoever about believing. Would you please enlighten me by showing me where Jesus used the word “believe” when talking to the good thief? Book, chapter, and verse, please. Thanks!

I think he left the forum.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Thhis section on baptism in the catechism should answer all your questions. if not, post again and I’ll try to help you…scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm

Thank you for the link. I have been reading it and it is very helpful, although I am having some problems understanding it (I’m on a lot of pain meds right now). It will take me some time.

One thing I am having problems with is that, from what I know, my godparents dumped me after my Baptism and never took any responsibility for teaching me what they were supposed to teach me. I know that shouldn’t matter, but I felt a bit cheated and a bit angry at them (they are both passed on) for agreeing to take on this task and then not even attempting it.

But then I’m supposed to forgive them and I have, but one of the problems I have in understanding the Sacraments is that the people who were supposed to teach me were not there. Ever. I never received any real instruction on the Sacraments so I didn’t know what they meant and I went through the motions in confusion and fear and I wonder how many people like me there are.

 

[paul_c]

Thank you for the link. I have been reading it and it is very helpful, although I am having some problems understanding it (I’m on a lot of pain meds right now). It will take me some time.

One thing I am having problems with is that, from what I know, my godparents dumped me after my Baptism and never took any responsibility for teaching me what they were supposed to teach me. I know that shouldn’t matter, but I felt a bit cheated and a bit angry at them (they are both passed on) for agreeing to take on this task and then not even attempting it.

But then I’m supposed to forgive them and I have, but one of the problems I have in understanding the Sacraments is that the people who were supposed to teach me were not there. Ever. I never received any real instruction on the Sacraments so I didn’t know what they meant and I went through the motions in confusion and fear and I wonder how many people like me there are.

There are many, many people like you. I teach two CCD classes. One of them is a confirmation class (8th graders). Only a few of these kids parents take them to mass. So you know most of them are getting very little religious instruction at home. Yet, some of these kids are very devout in their own right. God attends to each one of us individually. We all get what we need, when we need it. Its just a matter of whether we respond to his will when we are called.

There are many people on this forum who will help you understand what you need to know. The simple truth of it is that when we are baptized we get the necessary grace to gain eternal life. This is a pure gift from God and it will enable you to do his will. But it will not force you to. You must cooperate with God, chosing to love him and your neighbor. Every time you worthily take communion, it adds to this grace and makes you more like Jesus, whether you realize it or not. If you fall from grace through sin, but are truly sorry that you did sin, you can regain grace through the sacrament of reconciliation. If you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven and remember, if you are truly repentent, God will take you back, right until your last breath.

Does this help?
.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thank you for the link. I have been reading it and it is very helpful, although I am having some problems understanding it (I’m on a lot of pain meds right now). It will take me some time.

One thing I am having problems with is that, from what I know, my godparents dumped me after my Baptism and never took any responsibility for teaching me what they were supposed to teach me. I know that shouldn’t matter, but I felt a bit cheated and a bit angry at them (they are both passed on) for agreeing to take on this task and then not even attempting it.

But then I’m supposed to forgive them and I have, but one of the problems I have in understanding the Sacraments is that the people who were supposed to teach me were not there. Ever. I never received any real instruction on the Sacraments so I didn’t know what they meant and I went through the motions in confusion and fear and I wonder how many people like me there are.

From what I understand, godparents are there to assist the parents in raising the child in the Faith. The primary source of your catechesis should have come from your parents, not your godparents. If your parents failed to do that, I’m sorry, truly.

You would really benefit from attending the RCIA classes at your parish, and doing some studying on your own. There are a couple of places online where you can read some excellent articles - catholic.com (click on Library at the top of the page) of course, and www.catholicbridge.com - or get lectures either on CD or in MP3 format, such as www.biblechristiansociety.com and www.catholicity.com.

 

[Pax]

Little Soldier,

I will say some prayers for your needs and pain.

May God generously bless you in all things.