I need explanations please about baptism

[diggerdomer]

So Catholics think that baptizing a 1 month kid saves the child ?

The meaning of all the baptism thing is that, we died with Christ and rose again. The old person of my is dead, and a new one rose. When we are infants and we get baptized the kid has no idea what hes doing or what his parents are doing to him. He does not understand anything. And if baptism saves, then i think everyone in this world would get baptized. The Lord said, believe in the Lord Jesus-Christ and you will be saved. Its not the exact words from the Bible, but its just what I remember. Basically baptism according to the Bible does not save.

John 1:12-13
John 3:15
John 3:16
John 3:18
John 3:36
John 5:24
John 6:35
John 6:40
John 6:47
John 7:38-39
John 11:25-26
John 20:31
Acts 2:21
Acts 10:43
Acts 11:17
Acts 13:38-39
Acts 15:11
Acts 16:31
Acts 20:21
Romans 1:16
Romans 3:22
Romans 3:26
Romans 3:28
Romans 3:30
Romans 5:1
Romans 10:9
Romans 10:11
Romans 10:13
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 3:2-9
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 3:26
Ephesians 2:8-9
2 Thessalonians 2:10
2 Thessalonians 2:12
1 Timothy 4:10
2 Timothy 3:15
Titus 3:8
1 John 5:1
1 John 5:11-13

Take the verse you want, and it will prove to you that baptism does not save.

Mark 16:16
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned”

Allow me to explain. This verse clearly says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be save”. But dont understand it wrong. It says he that BELEIVES and THEN BAPTIZED that be saved. Not baptized alone. And the unbeliever shall be damned (judged, or any other similar word.

Also, baptism is a work (something that man does to please God). According to the Bible you are not saved by works.

2 Timothy 1:9—“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS.”

Ephesians 2:8-9—“For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.”

Titus 3:5—“Not by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which WE HAVE DONE, but according to His mercy He saved us.”

These 3 versus prove that we are not saved by works, and baptism = works.

If salvation could be earned by anything we do, then Christ’s death was a waste (Galatians 2:21). Read the passage your self, its clear.

And again, good works are not what a man DOES in order to be SAVED; good works are what a SAVED MAN DOES (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8)

If salvation is based (at least in part) on what we do, then our salvation can never be secure because we may do something to lose our salvation. If we are responsible to keep ourselves saved, then we may fall short, lose our salvation and be lost forever.

Please, read some of the versus I gave you, maybe you would understand me better .

If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches about Baptism, see the Catechism for a good starter (para 1213-1284)

As to what individuals think, well, that’s up to each individual.

 

[Pax]

I will get back to you about Peter’s case.

For the person above, well no one is obliging you to accept what i say, ur always free to ignore my thread.

For instance, can you explain this to me.

If Christ died on the cross to wash away our sins, in other words to save us. Why would baptism save too ? I mean, did you reject his death and put baptism instead ? Or, both ?

TazDinGo in Christ,

Baptism is necessary because Jesus made it so. Jesus also requires repentance. Scripture also says that we must have faith. Scripture also says that we must confess our belief in Jesus with our lips. Shall I go on?

It is improper to separate all of these things and the many others mentioned in scripture from Jesus sacrifice on the cross. Accepting all of these other things in scripture is not a rejection of Jesus’s work on the cross.

God bless.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I will get back to you about Peter’s case.

For the person above, well no one is obliging you to accept what i say, ur always free to ignore my thread.

For instance, can you explain this to me.

If Christ died on the cross to wash away our sins, in other words to save us. Why would baptism save too ? I mean, did you reject his death and put baptism instead ? Or, both ?

Christ died on the cross to obtain the possibility of forgiveness of our sins, Baptism is one way of applying that forgiveness to a particular soul.

Unfortunately your idea that Christ’s death on the cross instantly eliminated all sin, past, present and future at the moment of His death is wrong. Either that or St. Paul and St. Peter and the Scriptures themselves are incorrect.

 

[TazDinGo]

Baptism is a work. And the Lord clearly told us that we are NOT saved by works.

 

[Murphs10]

Baptism is a work. And the Lord clearly told us that we are NOT saved by works.

It is now obvious that your problem isn’t simply with the Catholic Church, but with Scripture itself. Your personal view of salvation doesn’t have room for Baptism when it is clearly taught by Christ and the apostles as being an important part in the overall plan.

ALL Scripture must be considered when understanding its teachings. Otherwise, you end up having to argue against scipture itself which you are doing now. Even faith is a work! Real faith in God is not just believing He exists. It means completely trusting in Him, putting Him first in your life and doing His will. Without that it is a dead faith.

 

[paul_c]

Baptism is a work. And the Lord clearly told us that we are NOT saved by works.

We are not saved by WORKS ALONE, just as we are not saved by FAITH ALONE.

 

[Pax]

Baptism is a work. And the Lord clearly told us that we are NOT saved by works.

TazDinGo,

Faith is also a work…it is something we do by the grace of God. I can also provide specific scriptural passages that clearly declare faith to be a work if you need them.

God bless.

 

[estesbob]

Baptism is a work. And the Lord clearly told us that we are NOT saved by works.

So then do you agree with the following:

“Accepting Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior is a work. And the Lord clearly told us that we are NOT saved by works.”

 

[diggerdomer]

Baptism is a work. And the Lord clearly told us that we are NOT saved by works.

Catholics believe that Sacraments are “works” yes…works of God (who also “works” by saving, creating, redeeming, sanctifying, etc.).

Have you looked at the Catechism as I suggested?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Baptism is a work. And the Lord clearly told us that we are NOT saved by works.

I take it that you don’t believe what is written in the Scriptures?

Sins are washed away through Baptism - Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38

We are now saved by Baptism - 1 Peter 3:21

 

[TazDinGo]

Explain to me how this happened then.

The thief that died with Jesus on the cross. Jesus told him, beleive on me and you will be saved. He did, he was NOT baptized.

As I said, 1 Peter 3:21, says SYMBOLIZES.

Another:

Acts 8:37-38.

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

It clearly shows that he must BELEIVE in ALL his heart in the Lord Jesus Christ and he can be baptized. Not baptized while being a baby and not knowing what will happen. Tell me this. A baby is born, he is baptized. 20 years later, he becomes the biggest threat in this world. Tell me, how did baptism save him ?

Please answer my questions, don’t diverge.

Another:

Mark 16:16

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Someone stated this in the past in this thread. Well let me enlighten you. You are lost my dear friend. It says, and he who does not BELEIVE will be damned. That means, if you believe and your not baptized you wont be damned. And if you get baptized and dont believe then you will be damned. If the but was not here, i would be 100% with you. Who ever this person was.

Good night now .

 

[panevino]

Explain to me how this happened then.

The thief that died with Jesus on the cross. Jesus told him, beleive on me and you will be saved. He did, he was NOT baptized.

look up baptism of blood or desire

As I said, 1 Peter 3:21, says SYMBOLIZES.

the word sybolizes refers back to the water of noah not the new water of christian baptism.

NIV…who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledgee of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,…

john 3:5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit

Another:

Acts 8:37-38.

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

It clearly shows that he must BELEIVE in ALL his heart in the Lord Jesus Christ and he can be baptized. Not baptized while being a baby and not knowing what will happen. Tell me this. A baby is born, he is baptized. 20 years later, he becomes the biggest threat in this world. Tell me, how did baptism save him ?
Please answer my questions, don’t diverge.

infant is baptised under the faith of the parents.
declaration of belief is made by the infant at confirmation.

note examples of those healed in bible based on faith of another.
(ie: centurion’s servant) etc.

and jesus entering the old covenant via circumcision on his eight day under the faith of Mary and Joseph.

notice that the children’s lives were saved by the parents faith, by the parents spreading the lambs blood on the doorposts during the passover.

Another:

Mark 16:16

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Someone stated this in the past in this thread. Well let me enlighten you. You are lost my dear friend. It says, and he who does not BELEIVE will be damned. That means, if you believe and your not baptized you wont be damned.

are you sure, not sure i agree with you here, it specifically says at the begining of the verse “he who believes AND is baptised will be saved…”

And if you get baptized and dont believe then you will be damned. If the but was not here, i would be 100% with you. Who ever this person was.

Good night now .

agree with you here - and this is what I think the 2nd part of the above verse is also trying to convey…

did you know that the
Catholic church teaches that the fruits of the sacrament are dependant on the dispostiion of the recipient…(its in the catechism somewhere)

no faith - no fruit.

there is more to it, but above is a key message.

 

[Pax]

…

As I said, 1 Peter 3:21, says SYMBOLIZES.
…

I explained what was wrong with this claim in post #15. Panevino has just explained what’s wrong with it again in his post above.

Please read and absorb what we present to you.

God bless.

 

[TazDinGo]

The sad part, is that you never answer my questions. All thought I always answered yours.

How did the thief enter the Kingdom Of God without BEING baptized ? Please answer with concrete reasons.

 

[paul_c]

The sad part, is that you never answer my questions. All thought I always answered yours.

How did the thief enter the Kingdom Of God without BEING baptized ? Please answer with concrete reasons.

The Catholic church teaches that if you desired to be baptized but were physically kept from doing so, God will recognize your baptism of desire. In the case of the St. Dismas, the good thief, he clearly desired baptism but was physically restrained from Doing so by being nailed to a cross.

 

[TazDinGo]

The Catholic church teaches that if you desired to be baptized but were physically kept from doing so, God will recognize your baptism of desire. In the case of the St. Dismas, the good thief, he clearly desired baptism but was physically restrained from Doing so by being nailed to a cross.

Says who, that he desired baptism ?

 

[panevino]

The sad part, is that you never answer my questions. All thought I always answered yours.

How did the thief enter the Kingdom Of God without BEING baptized ? Please answer with concrete reasons.

did you see my previous post.
i’m no expert but if you look up
’ baptism of desire’ or ‘blood’ on the net,
you’ll come up with some information.
bassically catholic church understanding is per jesus own words
'…must be born of water and spirit… 'in john 3:5

however catholic church also recognises Gods mercy and as in the case of the thief on the cross and a martyr who is killed for his/her view of God before able to be baptised… that they are baptised by blood.

 

[TazDinGo]

did you see my previous post.
i’m no expert but if you look up
’ baptism of desire’ or ‘blood’ on the net,
you’ll come up with some information.
bassically catholic church understanding is per jesus own words
'…must be born of water and spirit… 'in john 3:5

however catholic church also recognises Gods mercy and as in the case of the thief on the cross and a martyr who is killed for his/her view of God before able to be baptised… that they are baptised by blood.

But the thief was not baptized. Basically according to your doctrine, he did not go to heaven. But Christ clearly told him that he will inherit the Kingdom of Christ if he believes.

Does the Bible say anything about “baptism of desire” ?

 

[Des]

But the thief was not baptized.

How do you know He wasn’t Baptized?

Man steals. Time passes and man then hears Jesus. Man gets Baptized. Man then gets found and convicted of being a thief and hanged on a cross right along side Jesus.

 

[panevino]

Originally Posted by panevino
did you see my previous post.
i’m no expert but if you look up
’ baptism of desire’ or ‘blood’ on the net,
you’ll come up with some information.
bassically catholic church understanding is per jesus own words
'…must be born of water and spirit… 'in john 3:5

however catholic church also recognises Gods mercy and as in the case of the thief on the cross and a martyr who is killed for his/her view of God before able to be baptised… that they are baptised by blood.

But the thief was not baptized.

ah sorry i should of said ‘baptism of desire’ above not ‘of blood’.
just to clarify - baptism of blood, does not mean that blood is poured on someone (dont mean to be condecending if you allready understoood this, thought I’d throw it in just in case)

what I was trying to say is that the thief is considered baptised by his faith shown on the cross and fact that he could not be baptised in water as the eunach was by phillip.Acts 8:36-

this is what is meant by ‘baptism of desire’

baptism of blood refers to an unbaptised martyr that is killed for his/her belief in God.

Basically according to your doctrine, he did not go to heaven.

not true given above

But Christ clearly told him that he will inherit the Kingdom of Christ if he believes.

Does the Bible say anything about “baptism of desire” ?

the thief on the cross is a good example.

while
the eunach being baptised by phillip in the water & john 3:5
point to christian baptism in water.

why are you concenred about the need to submit to a water baptism with faith to fullfill john 3:5.

is it because it may be considered a ‘work’
is it though?, isn’t it submission to God.