I need explanations please about baptism

[TazDinGo]

ah sorry i should of said ‘baptism of desire’ above not ‘of blood’.
just to clarify - baptism of blood, does not mean that blood is poured on someone (dont mean to be condecending if you allready understoood this, thought I’d throw it in just in case)

what I was trying to say is that the thief is considered baptised by his faith shown on the cross and fact that he could not be baptised in water as the eunach was by phillip.Acts 8:36-

this is what is meant by ‘baptism of desire’

baptism of blood refers to an unbaptised martyr that is killed for his/her belief in God.

not true given above

the thief on the cross is a good example.

while
the eunach being baptised by phillip in the water & john 3:5
point to christian baptism in water.

why are you concenred about the need to submit to a water baptism with faith to fullfill john 3:5.

is it because it may be considered a ‘work’
is it though?, isn’t it submission to God.

All what your saying, is baptism of desire. And all this is what Catholics think is right, the Bible does not talk about anything called “baptism of desire”.

How do I know he was not baptized ?

Well he was a thief. He told Christ, he wanted to enter this Kingdom ( correct me please, if the story is not exact".

LUKE 23:39-43

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[a] save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,** remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Did Christ talk about baptism of desire ? Or of blood ? No matter what you call it. No. Did he talk about anything related to baptism ? No. And Christ said, you will be with Me in Paradise.**

 

[panevino]

All what your saying, is baptism of desire. And all this is what Catholics think is right, the Bible does not talk about anything called “baptism of desire”.

How do I know he was not baptized ?

Well he was a thief. He told Christ, he wanted to enter this Kingdom ( correct me please, if the story is not exact".

LUKE 23:39-43

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[a] save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,** remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Did Christ talk about baptism of desire ? Or of blood ? No matter what you call it. No. Did he talk about anything related to baptism ? No. And Christ said, you will be with Me in Paradise.**

before I answer
how do you interpret the word "baptised " In mark 16:16
is it water baptism With faith?
is it baptism by faith(no water included)?

How do interpret the word water
in john3:5?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Explain to me how this happened then.

The thief that died with Jesus on the cross. Jesus told him, beleive on me and you will be saved. He did, he was NOT baptized.

As I said, 1 Peter 3:21, says SYMBOLIZES.

Another:

Acts 8:37-38.

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

It clearly shows that he must BELEIVE in ALL his heart in the Lord Jesus Christ and he can be baptized. Not baptized while being a baby and not knowing what will happen. Tell me this. A baby is born, he is baptized. 20 years later, he becomes the biggest threat in this world. Tell me, how did baptism save him ?

Please answer my questions, don’t diverge.

Another:

Mark 16:16

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Someone stated this in the past in this thread. Well let me enlighten you. You are lost my dear friend. It says, and he who does not BELEIVE will be damned. That means, if you believe and your not baptized you wont be damned. And if you get baptized and dont believe then you will be damned. If the but was not here, i would be 100% with you. Who ever this person was.

Good night now .

The word symbolizes isn’t in 1 Peter 3:21
The eunech was an adult and could speak for himself.

Remember also in Mark 16:16 if you as an adult believe **and **are Baptized you will be saved, if you do not believe you will be condemned. However it does not say what happens to and adult who believes but is not Baptized.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The sad part, is that you never answer my questions. All thought I always answered yours.

How did the thief enter the Kingdom Of God without BEING baptized ? Please answer with concrete reasons.

He believed and made a public profession of that belief in Christ, but because of circumstances outside of his control he was unable to be Baptized.

 

[TazDinGo]

before I answer
how do you interpret the word "baptised " In mark 16:16
is it water baptism With faith?
is it baptism by faith(no water included)?

How do interpret the word water
in john3:5?

Mark 16:16

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If you want that verse to prove that baptism saves then 2 stuff would be missing: “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, none of both above are in the verse.

So, here I consider it as with water. Because why would 2 same thing be put in one verse ? If baptized in this verse meant baptism without water, then there would be 2 faiths in this verse, and it would not make any kind of sens.

In fact,the Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

Let’s go to your second question.

John 3:3-7

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered,** “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’**

See here, Jesus could of said "unless one is baptized, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. But then, he would b contradicting other passages: John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9: Titus 3:5.

Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. And back then,Baptism was not in effect.

“being born of water and the Spirit” is not referred to baptism as we now know it.

Jesus did not meant to say “water” as physical water, but rather “living water”. The main point that Jesus was making is this: You cannot enter God’s kingdom unless you are CLEAN. And usually to be CLEAN from the outside we use soap and water. To be clean from the inside you need SPIRITUAL CLEANSING.

John 3:3 says that if a person is going to see the kingdom he must be born again. John 3:5 says that if a person is going to enter the kingdom he must be born of water and of the Spirit. Therefore, being born again means the same thing as being born of water and of the Spirit. If a person has been born again, then this person has been born of water and of the Spirit. Clear enough I hope ?

John 3:3 is in bold, just look a little bit above. Why would Jesus contradict him self ? In saying, born again and then born of water, of phrases ? I’m sure he would not do such a thing.

So now, I answered you, now answer me please.

Back to topic:

Did Christ talk about baptism of desire ? Or of blood ? No matter what you call it. No. Did he talk about anything related to baptism ? No. And Christ said, you will be with Me in Paradise.

EDIT: 1 Peter 3:21

21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

here it is, in your own version of the Bible. In mine it does not ( New King James Version).

 

[TazDinGo]

The word symbolizes isn’t in 1 Peter 3:21
The eunech was an adult and could speak for himself.

Remember also in Mark 16:16 if you as an adult believe **and **are Baptized you will be saved, if you do not believe you will be condemned. However it does not say what happens to and adult who believes but is not Baptized.

1 Peter 3:21

21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

here it is, in your own version of the Bible. In mine it does not ( New King James Version).

Answers your first question.

And the second one: well, that means if you believe you will NOT be condemned. I already explained this in my previous post, its just above.

 

[cfrancis]

1 Peter 3:21

21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

here it is, in your own version of the Bible. In mine it does not ( New King James Version).

THe only way Taz’s position stands is if we ignore all grammar rules. For Taz’s position to be correct, 1 Pt 3:21 must read, “baptism symbolizes that which now saves you…”

If I say to you, Taz, that the large yellow circle my child drew symbolizes the sun, you certainly aren’t going to believe and tell us that the sun symbolizes that drawn yellow circle.

Scripture plainly says, most certainly in 1 Pt 3:21, that Baptism now saves, especially when you add the preceding part from v20:

were brought safely through the water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also

 

[juliamajor]

So Catholics think that baptizing a 1 month kid saves the child ?(Saves -no-cleans him of original sin yes.Our salvation is something to be worked on on a daily basis.)
The meaning of all the baptism thing is that, we died with Christ and rose again. The old person of my is dead, and a new one rose. When we are infants and we get baptized the kid has no idea what hes doing or what his parents are doing to him. He does not understand anything. And if baptism saves, then i think everyone in this world would get baptized. The Lord said, believe in the Lord Jesus-Christ and you will be saved. Its not the exact words from the Bible, but its just what I remember. Basically baptism according to the Bible does not save. (even babies are sentient human beings.Just because they are infants doesn’t mean the have no brains or no soul."out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise"What do you think these words mean?You assume too much while the bible says nothing about infant baptism-you make your own assumption of what Jesus meant.If nothing is said against it then why do you think it’s condemned?That’s a jump from point A to Point Z. Silence betokens assent-not condemnation.Again our own "salvation starts at baptism and ends at death.Just saying “Im saved” doesn’t actually mean you are

John 1:12-13
John 3:15
John 3:16
John 3:18
John 3:36
John 5:24
John 6:35
John 6:40
John 6:47
John 7:38-39
John 11:25-26
John 20:31
Acts 2:21
Acts 10:43
Acts 11:17
Acts 13:38-39
Acts 15:11
Acts 16:31
Acts 20:21
Romans 1:16
Romans 3:22
Romans 3:26
Romans 3:28
Romans 3:30
Romans 5:1
Romans 10:9
Romans 10:11
Romans 10:13
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 3:2-9
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 3:26
Ephesians 2:8-9
2 Thessalonians 2:10
2 Thessalonians 2:12
1 Timothy 4:10
2 Timothy 3:15
Titus 3:8
1 John 5:1
1 John 5:11-13

Take the verse you want, and it will prove to you that baptism does not save.

Mark 16:16
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned”

Allow me to explain. This verse clearly says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be save”. But dont understand it wrong. It says he that BELEIVES and THEN BAPTIZED that be saved. Not baptized alone. And the unbeliever shall be damned (judged, or any other similar word.

Also, baptism is a work (something that man does to please God). According to the Bible you are not saved by works.

2 Timothy 1:9—“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS.”

Ephesians 2:8-9—“For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.”

Titus 3:5—“Not by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which WE HAVE DONE, but according to His mercy He saved us.”

These 3 versus prove that we are not saved by works, and baptism = works.

If salvation could be earned by anything we do, then Christ’s death was a waste (Galatians 2:21). Read the passage your self, its clear.

And again, good works are not what a man DOES in order to be SAVED; good works are what a SAVED MAN DOES (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8)(you again are very ignorant of catholic theology-but I’m sure that doesn’t mean anything to you and your buddies.the truth never stopped you-you just believe what you believe 'cause someone told you so.)

If salvation is based (at least in part) on what we do, then our salvation can never be secure because we may do something to lose our salvation. If we are responsible to keep ourselves saved, then we may fall short, lose our salvation and be lost forever.(
Please, read some of the versus(verses) I gave you, maybe you would understand me better .

Did you read anything that has been posted.?Your somewhat limited view of scripture and and no-immersion baptism has has tainted anything you.First we were invaded by SDA’s now by baptists.give us a break! How about looking into what you really believe?How about perfecting yourself?I never see any of that with your ilk.You assume your own perfection and self righteousness that is truly astounding and an arrogance way out of proportion to your knowledge.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

1 Peter 3:21

21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

here it is, in your own version of the Bible. In mine it does not ( New King James Version).

Answers your first question.

And the second one: well, that means if you believe you will NOT be condemned. I already explained this in my previous post, its just above.

Try using a good and accurate translation of the Bible.

It means exactly what it says: If you believe AND are Baptized you will be saved. If you do not believe, you will be condemned. It does not say anything about those who say that they Believe but refuse Baptism.

Christ addresses this when He says: Many will say Lord, Lord, but only those who DO the will of His Father will enter the kingdom. Matthew 7:21

Which is why James says we are NOT saved by faith alone.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Hello.

Well, the word baptism itself means IMMERSION in greek. Why do Catholics do it by sprinkling and not immersion ? Also, i would like someone explain to me why are babies baptized ?

First off, baptism is NOT done by sprinking in the Latin Church, but by POURING–though immersion is becoming more and more frequently the practice.

Read 1 Cor 10 about how ALL the Israelites went through the Bpatism of Moses in the cloud and in the sea. What would have happened if the little ones had been left on the shore to decide for themselves whether they wished it?

Note also, they ALL ate the same spiritual food and ALL drank the same spiritual drink.

So there you see the precedent for infant communion.

 

[estesbob]

The sad part, is that you never answer my questions. All thought I always answered yours.

How did the thief enter the Kingdom Of God without BEING baptized ? Please answer with concrete reasons.

**1258 **The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

From the Cathecism of the Catholic Church

Before criticizing the Church for that that you do not understand i suggest your first go to scborromeo.org/ccc.htm and find out what it is the church actually teaches

 

[Ignatius]

baptism that now saves you .

You are apparently not reading the scriptures you yourself posted - “baptism now saves you” also, “baptism is the new circumcision”.

Also, you are also under a false impression, you seem to think that the folks here are unaware of Protestant teaching. Adcording to a resent poll, the majority of folks here are formerly from Protestant/Baptist/Evangelical/Nondenom denominations. Some were even Pastors of sizable Baptist congregations before discovering the Truth of The Catholic Church.

BTW, the purpose of this forum is to illuminate the Catholic Faith for those sincerely seeking to learn more about it. This does not seem to be your purpose, is it?

If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, “He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.” And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[TazDinGo]

Well, always the sad part, I ask questions and you can NEVER EVER answer them with logical and CONCRETE answers. Well, I guess your right, this is not the right place to do such things !

God bless you all ! And I will be praying for you

Mods: Please be kind and close this thread.

Good bye

 

[estesbob]

Well, always the sad part, I ask questions and you can NEVER EVER answer them with logical and CONCRETE answers. Well, I guess your right, this is not the right place to do such things !

God bless you all ! And I will be praying for you

Mods: Please be kind and close this thread.

Good bye

I gave you direct quotes from the Cathecism of the Catholic Church, How can you get more logical and cioncrete answers than that?

Thanks for the offer to pray for me-could you say a Rosary for me? Thanks!

 

[panevino]

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
If you want that verse to prove that baptism saves then …

do you realize your arguing the point with a church that teaches that you can be saved without a water baptism in some cases.
I’m sorry but the 1st part of the verse has 2 conditions “believes and is baptised” . It does not get much more clearer than that. As many have said before the 2nd part of the verse highlights that a faithless baptism or simply no faith will not get u far.

**The 2nd part does not eliminate the word ‘baptism’ from the 1st part of the verse… **Sorry. U have to say much more to convince me of that.

I also note that you accept that it is water baptism in mark 16:16.
Some Protestants don’t.

I also note that Jesus tells the aposltes to go and baptise in the name of the f, s &hs…
And then also says that they that “do his will Of the father will enter kingdom”. Mat 7:21

So, here I consider it as with water. Because why would 2 same thing be put in one verse ? If baptized in this verse meant baptism without water, then there would be 2 faiths in this verse, and it would not make any kind of sens.

In fact,the Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

I hear you, but Jesus does says that “he that doeth the will of my father shall enter the kingdom…”. He also tells apostles to baptise in trinity, bible also says in mark 16 he who “believes and is baptised”. It is only called baptised when the eunach get out of the water with phillip not after his declaration of belief prior to the water. And Peter says that the water of Noah symbolizes the baptism that now Also save you. And there is John 3:5 which u discuss below, but I don’t buy, particularly given what Ihave just written and the precedent of water and spirit in the OT ezek 36:24-27.

Let’s go to your second question.

John 3:3-7

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered,** “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’**

See here, Jesus could of said "unless one is baptized, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. But then, he would b contradicting other passages:
John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9: Titus 3:5.

To me it is certainly real water, particularly given verses like that from Peter “baptism now saves also” and the story of the eunach and the Ezek verse that clearly relates water and spirit to a new begining. The word “believe” in the verse you listed (ie Jon 3:16) need to be understood with Jesus words"who ever doeth the will"… I mean why would Jesus bother sending apostles to baptise

Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. And back then,Baptism was not in effect.

“being born of water and the Spirit” is not referred to baptism as we now know it.

there are a few early church fathers that disagree with you with that last scentence.

Jesus did not meant to say “water” as physical water, but rather “living water”. The main point that Jesus was making is this: You cannot enter God’s kingdom unless you are CLEAN. And usually to be CLEAN from the outside we use soap and water. To be clean from the inside you need SPIRITUAL CLEANSING.

see the Ezek verse for precedent & Rom6:4

John 3:3 says that if a person is going to see the kingdom he must be born again. John 3:5 says that if a person is going to enter the kingdom he must be born of water and of the Spirit. Therefore, being born again means the same thing as being born of water and of the Spirit. If a person has been born again, then this person has been born of water and of the Spirit. Clear enough I hope ?

yes clear. but to me ‘born again’ is clealry a faithfull baptism ie water and spirit . Have u read

rom6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Sounds like “born again” also sounds like the Ezek verse, also relevant to mark 16:16 as you accept it is a ‘water’ baptism in that verse. The rom6:4 verse also sounds like water and spirit in John 3

John 3:3 is in bold, just look a little bit above. Why would Jesus contradict him self ? In saying, born again and then born of water, of phrases ? I’m sure he would not do such a thing.

he uses the word “born of water and spirit” as one event to describe how we are “born again”
as interpreted by the early church fathers

So now, I answered you, now answer me please.
Back to topic:

Did Christ talk about baptism of desire ? Or of blood ? No matter what you call it. No. Did he talk about anything related to baptism ? No.
And Christ said, you will be with Me in Paradise.

sure the actual words “baptism of desire” are not in the bible. It’s a merely a title used to describe how the thief was saved without being baptised as commanded by Jesus.

EDIT: 1 Peter 3:21

21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

here it is, in your own version of the Bible. In mine it does not ( New King James Version).

do you now accept that the word “symbolizes” relates to the water of Noah not the water of Christian baptism.

 

[TazDinGo]

I gave you direct quotes from the Cathecism of the Catholic Church, How can you get more logical and cioncrete answers than that?

Thanks for the offer to pray for me-could you say a Rosary for me? Thanks!

Why not give me answers from the Bible it self ? Can’t eh … ? Sad.

I won’t continue, I already told you, this is a catholic forum, not a place to argue.

One day, we will get answers, and its then youll tell me if baptism saves or not.

Good-bye for the last time.

Just close this thread for your sake -.-…

 

[Murphs10]

Explain to me how this happened then.

The thief that died with Jesus on the cross. Jesus told him, beleive on me and you will be saved. He did, he was NOT baptized.

Well, wouldn’t the thief have died before Jesus was resurrected and opened the gates to heaven? Wouldn’t the thief had first gone to join the other unbaptised “spirits in prison” until Jesus brought them the good news? Help me out with this…I may be way off.

 

[panevino]

Why not give me answers from the Bible it self ? Can’t eh … ? Sad.

I won’t continue, I already told you, this is a catholic forum, not a place to argue.

One day, we will get answers, and its then youll tell me if baptism saves or not.

Good-bye for the last time.

Just close this thread for your sake -.-…

dont give up - forums are no value without a different point of view.

you are the most valuable member on this thread - challenging us … thats why we are all here i think, at least thats why I am here, to learn, to test my understanding.

 

[estesbob]

Why not give me answers from the Bible it self ? Can’t eh … ? Sad.

I won’t continue, I already told you, this is a catholic forum, not a place to argue.

One day, we will get answers, and its then youll tell me if baptism saves or not.

Good-bye for the last time.

Just close this thread for your sake -.-…

You mean the Bible the Catholic Church gave you? You were given the appropriate Scripture verses as well as the what the Cuurch has said on this matter for the last 2,000 years. The idea that Baptism is not necessary is a fairly recent idea and is not ot supported by either scripture, tradition or the consistent teachings of the Magestrium.

 

[TazDinGo]

dont give up - forums are no value without a different point of view.

you are the most valuable member on this thread - challenging us … thats why we are all here i think, at least thats why I am here, to learn, to test my understanding.

I am not giving up at all. I would never give up for my faith. Though, im doing something called, you are too stubborn. Because we show you proofs from the Bible and you deny and get some reason. Ex: Baptism of desire…

The Bible never EVER mentioned that he desired baptism. And he WAS saved. Discussion ends here about the thief. You want to accept it, do so, its my pleasure. You want to deny, do so, its your choice. But you will be just rejecting the truth.