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eafan
Guest
Interestingly, I have a KJV from 1865 that has all 7 of those books in it in order!
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Defender1
Guest
Interesting it is . These days if A protestant bible has them, they are usually in the back of the book as an option to read but at the same time not acknowledging them as scripture .
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guanophore
Guest
The Deuterocanonical books were actually removed by publishers who were trying to save money. You are right, though, the reason they were removed is because Protestants rejected them as part of the Apostolic faith. That is why there is no Bible prior to the Reformation that does not have them included. Since Jesus and the Apostles used them, they are good enough for us.
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De_Maria
Guest
To this charge, I would say that the Catholic Church has explained the doctrines of Jesus Christ more completely over a period of time. For an exampled, we can take the Trinity. The Trinity is not mentioned explicitly in Scripture. So, the Church infallibly defined this doctrine around the third century.
Search as you may, you won’t find in the Bible, the definition of the Trinity as one God in three Divine Persons.
Of course, this helps only if the people you are dealing with believe in the Trinity. Some Protestant groups don’t.
Like the Trinity, Purgatory is implied in Scripture. We stand upon 1 Cor 3:15 as our most explicit explanation of Purgatory in Scripture. There are others however. I might ask those guys, “What do you call this place where the righteous are sent to suffer before they are permitted into heaven?” And show them this verse:
Revelation 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
The Catholic Church calls it “Purgatory”.
We stand upon John 20:23 for this one:
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
I hope that helps. Feel free to ask any other questions..how would a good Catholic defend the faith here? BTW, I am looking to convert. Thanks.
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
Defender1
Guest
The Deuterocanonical books were actually removed by publishers who were trying to save money. You are right, though, the reason they were removed is because Protestants rejected them as part of the Apostolic faith. That is why there is no Bible prior to the Reformation that does not have them included. Since Jesus and the Apostles used them, they are good enough for us.
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ufamtobie
Guest
I am hoping to convert this Easter and I really need some help understanding this one idea. The Catholic Church, from this website, has added all their doctrines over a period of time. Purgatory came along after the Church was established, then Priest able to forgive sins…how would a good Catholic defend the faith here? BTW, I am looking to convert. Thanks.
Hello JD,
Yes it say in scripture that the Apostlesare able to forgive sins. Read John 20: 21-23 below.
John 20:21-23 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
JD, The Church has the authority to forgive sins or retain sins on they who ask for forgiveness. No other church has this Authority scripture proves this above.
Now you and I we must forgive everyone who has done us wrong70 times seven times . The Church governs us, we must obey the Church therefore the Church has the power to forgive us our sins or retain them.
Regarding Purgatory: is a place of Mercy where Jesus Christ washes the stains of sin that one has committed in life, yes Jesus Christ forgives us our sin but there is a place where we have to pay/washing for a time. Story: A son tells his father, Dad I am sorry I took your car and I have wrecked it, please forgive me… what will the father say to his son? The good father says to his son, I forgive you, but you are grounded/purgatory for a month. The same Jesus will do to us that he forgives and saves.
The word “purgatory” is not in the bible but the meaning of purgatory is. Read the book of maccabees in the old Testament you will find it there it will be found in the Catholic bible, you will not find it the protestant bible.
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PJM
Guest
I need help understanding this of the Catholic Church.
I am hoping to convert this Easter and I really need some help understanding this one idea. The Catholic Church, from this website, has added all their doctrines over a period of time. Purgatory came along after the Church was established, then Priest able to forgive sins…how would a good Catholic defend the faith here? BTW, I am looking to convert. Thanks.
CONGRATULATIONS! Both on your decision and on going about it in a prudent manner. Always ASK when your unsure. One can be assured that everything we Catholics is supportable either biblically, as in the case of both issues you raised or by a combination of Bile, Tradition and logic.
Understand that my response is by necessity limited because of the prudence of limited space allowed per post.
BOTH of the issues you raise have both an OT and NT bible foundation. Priest have at least from the time of Moses on [and maybe even prior to this] been involved all though in differing degrees and ways in the forgiveness of others sins. Here are examples of this truth.
Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … **Lev.6:7 **“and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."
**Numbers 15: 25 -28 **“And the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the people of Israel, and they shall be forgiven; because it was an error, and they have brought their Offering an offering by fire to the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their error. And all the congregation of the people of Israel shall be forgiven.”
The NT has a function of completing, even perfecting practice and traditions of the OT. Now raised to the level of a Sacrament, by Christ, we find not only KNOWN and assured forgiveness; but also a source of God’s grace. 1st. Jn. 1: 8-10 and 1st. Jn.5:16-17 set the foundation, explaining why this Sacrament, is an absolute sense is essential for Ones possible salvation. John 20:19-23 gives us the details of what Christ Himself commands and intends for ALL of us. “ You will find these same teachings in the KJ Bible even though they are id SERIOUS ERROR, not correctly taught. …“On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, [The 1st. Pentecost Sunday] the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. … Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Permit me to explain ALL of what has taken place here. PLEASE look-up Mt.28:18, and Mt. 19:6 and then Mt. 10:1 in this exact order.
God Bless you,
Pat
PJM
I am hoping to convert this Easter and I really need some help understanding this one idea. The Catholic Church, from this website, has added all their doctrines over a period of time. Purgatory came along after the Church was established, then Priest able to forgive sins…how would a good Catholic defend the faith here? BTW, I am looking to convert. Thanks.
CONGRATULATIONS! Both on your decision and on going about it in a prudent manner. Always ASK when your unsure. One can be assured that everything we Catholics is supportable either biblically, as in the case of both issues you raised or by a combination of Bile, Tradition and logic.
Understand that my response is by necessity limited because of the prudence of limited space allowed per post.
BOTH of the issues you raise have both an OT and NT bible foundation. Priest have at least from the time of Moses on [and maybe even prior to this] been involved all though in differing degrees and ways in the forgiveness of others sins. Here are examples of this truth.
Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … **Lev.6:7 **“and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."
**Numbers 15: 25 -28 **“And the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the people of Israel, and they shall be forgiven; because it was an error, and they have brought their Offering an offering by fire to the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their error. And all the congregation of the people of Israel shall be forgiven.”
The NT has a function of completing, even perfecting practice and traditions of the OT. Now raised to the level of a Sacrament, by Christ, we find not only KNOWN and assured forgiveness; but also a source of God’s grace. 1st. Jn. 1: 8-10 and 1st. Jn.5:16-17 set the foundation, explaining why this Sacrament, is an absolute sense is essential for Ones possible salvation. John 20:19-23 gives us the details of what Christ Himself commands and intends for ALL of us. “ You will find these same teachings in the KJ Bible even though they are id SERIOUS ERROR, not correctly taught. …“On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, [The 1st. Pentecost Sunday] the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. … Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Permit me to explain ALL of what has taken place here. PLEASE look-up Mt.28:18, and Mt. 19:6 and then Mt. 10:1 in this exact order.
- Twice Jesus imparts HIS Peace. WHY? Because the LACK of true inner peace is most often caused by our sins, and IF we are prudent and correctly informed; by our concerns about whether or NOT they HAVE actually been forgiven?
- Only through the Sacrament of Catholic Confession can one know with absolute certainty that one HAS really been forgiven because this is the ONLY manner APPROVED by Christ Himself. The “sinners prayer is a man-made-invention” and a lie.
- It remains Jesus who actually forgives our sins; BUT He does so ONLY if asked to do so by His Catholic Priest. Space prohibits a fuller explanation. Send Me a Private Message if you want more information.
God Bless you,
Pat
PJM
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PJM
Guest
A CAF responseon Purgatory
Information on the Biblical foundation for purgatory.
Like a great many other terms and concepts in use today: Catholic, Protestant, Sinners-Prayer, Hell, and Sacraments; one does not find the use of these precise terms; BUT except for the “Sinners-Prayer” which is a very recent human invention and myth; they all are Bible teachings with other words. And All except the “SP” have a foundation in both the OT and the NT.
Before getting into the bible; permit me to explain how “Purgatory” conforms fully and necessarily with God’s Divine Nature.
God is perfect and we too MUST in an absolute sense be “perfect or perfected” in order to be allowed in the very Presence of our God. Mt. 5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” 1Pet.1: 15-16 “but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
Sin, which by itself a huge discussion topic, has two parts. An offence God which the Sacrament of Catholic Confession remits, and an element of effecting our fellow humanity. Sin is NOT a private affair. It has consequences for us; for the one we offended, for the Church and even for the world we live in. These consequences require a “pay-back.” Baptism takes care of removing ALL sin as well as these necessary pay-back effects of our sin UP TO THE POINT of the actual Baptism; but has no effect on all sins committed after we are baptized.
2 Mac. 12: 39 –45 “On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
And these NT also supports this Theology as an absolute necessity:
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Again PM me if you desire more information.
God Bless you,
Pat
PJM
Information on the Biblical foundation for purgatory.
Like a great many other terms and concepts in use today: Catholic, Protestant, Sinners-Prayer, Hell, and Sacraments; one does not find the use of these precise terms; BUT except for the “Sinners-Prayer” which is a very recent human invention and myth; they all are Bible teachings with other words. And All except the “SP” have a foundation in both the OT and the NT.
Before getting into the bible; permit me to explain how “Purgatory” conforms fully and necessarily with God’s Divine Nature.
God is perfect and we too MUST in an absolute sense be “perfect or perfected” in order to be allowed in the very Presence of our God. Mt. 5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” 1Pet.1: 15-16 “but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
Sin, which by itself a huge discussion topic, has two parts. An offence God which the Sacrament of Catholic Confession remits, and an element of effecting our fellow humanity. Sin is NOT a private affair. It has consequences for us; for the one we offended, for the Church and even for the world we live in. These consequences require a “pay-back.” Baptism takes care of removing ALL sin as well as these necessary pay-back effects of our sin UP TO THE POINT of the actual Baptism; but has no effect on all sins committed after we are baptized.
2 Mac. 12: 39 –45 “On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
And these NT also supports this Theology as an absolute necessity:
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Again PM me if you desire more information.
God Bless you,
Pat
PJM
E
eafan
Guest
Yes, and as a returning Catholic from the Bible thumping realm, I just got me 7 more books of Scripture!The Deuterocanonical books were actually removed by publishers who were trying to save money. You are right, though, the reason they were removed is because Protestants rejected them as part of the Apostolic faith. That is why there is no Bible prior to the Reformation that does not have them included. Since Jesus and the Apostles used them, they are good enough for us.
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