I Need Help with Poem of the Man-God

[Eireann]

But I am showing obedience to the Church’s view, the first view, the Papal Imprimatur given by Pope Pius XII, witnessed by three Priests and logged at the Vatican by a Cardinal.

Although I wanted to bow out of this you force my hand, links please.

 

[Greg11430]

Sure,

cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

advancedchristianity.com/Pages/Father%20Vernard%20Poslusney/011%20The%20Poem%20of%20the%20Man-God.htm

exdeo.com/brC/berti/index.php

heartofjesus.ca/MariaValtorta/M%20A%20R%20I%20A.htm

saveourchurch.org/testpoem.html

valtorta.org/the_poem__reviews_and_critiques.asp

bardstown.com/~brchrys/PoemCompos.htm

members.aol.com/fmrega4/Valtorta.htm

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Imprmatur.htm

 

[adrift]

But I am showing obedience to the Church’s view, the first view, the Papal Imprimatur given by Pope Pius XII, witnessed by three Priests and logged at the Vatican by a Cardinal.

 I'm disregarding the subversion of this Papal Imprimatur by a wayward Cardinal who was offended at being circumnavigated in the process, putting these Holy writings on the index after Pope Pius XII past away.  The same Cardinal whose policy mandated that the Church Hierarchy, under the penalty of excommunication, protect pedophile priests that repeatedly molested young children.  Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani's policy imposed an order of absolute silence on the violated child victims, their aggrieved families and witnesses to the crime, also under penalty of excommunication. Furthermore, it served as a guide to insulate pedophile priests from civil authorities by moving them from parish to parish. Many investigating agencies concluded that this Cardinal Ottaviani policy was the single greatest cause of the recent child molestation scandal in the Roman Catholic Church.

 As I previously stated, the choice is simple: Pope or Pedophile. For me, I choose the Pope.

Greg

This post is an afront to charity. To call Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani a pedophile is a breaking of the 8th commandment. Did the Pope give his approval?

Pope Pius XII did nothing to stop this rejection, which was followed later by a condemnation, when Fr. Berti went to a lay publisher to publish the works (even though he had signed an agreement not to publish the works).

Again, Pope Pius XII did not stop the condemnation. It is believed that if the Pope did originally approve of the writings, it may have been that he only saw excerpts (the Pope’s spiritual director, Cardinal Augustin Bea stated that he (the Cardinal) only read certain small parts of the books, and had no objections, but no one knows which parts he read).

Finally, Pope John XXIII, also, signed a declaration of condemnation.

The works were put on the official Index of Forbidden books in 1959.

saintanthonygroton.org/quest/poem.html

 

[Victorious]

Now, the book was not removed from the banned book list, just to be clear. Rather, the banned book list was eliminated in 1966. That is why Cardinal Ratzinger addressed it in that letter above by saying that it still holds relevance that it was on the list.

I haven’t read this whole thread, because of its length, so it may be that somebody has already commented on this. But as I understand it, the Index of Forbidden Books was abolished on the grounds that the increasing proliferation of books made it simply impracticable to keep track of all the books that were being published. Therefore – as others have commented – abolishing the Index did not constitute a reversal of the Church’s opinion’s on the books listed, including The Poem of the Man-God. The current Pope’s silence on this issue cannot and should not be construed as an official sanction of the book.

 

[Greg11430]

Well let’s see, I don’t think there is another person who ever lived or is alive today who protected more Pedophiles than Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani. I restate my axiom; no one protects a pedophile but another pedophile. Show me where I’m wrong.

Pope Pius XII reviewed Valtorta’s writings for a year before calling a meeting with the three Priests to give his Imprimatur. Obviously Pope Pius XII could not stop the condemnation because Cardinal Ottaviani waited till he past away before putting the Poem on the Index. Obviously Pope Pius XII couldn’t anything if he was dead, that’s a no-brainer. Cardinal Ottaviani gritted his teeth for three years while the Poem was being published with the Papal Imprimatur affixed to the inside front cover. Cardinal Ottaviani had Pope John XXIII sign the condemnation immediately after taking office, after the death of Pope Pius XII.

 

[Greg11430]

Index?

Here’s a quote from AdvancedChristianity.com: “One example would be how Roman Catholic Church hierarchy placed Galileo’s writings on the Index. They burned his written observations and nearly burned him at the stake in order to force him to retract his ideas regarding the earth being round and orbiting the sun. He was brutally compelled to sign retractions stating that the world was actually flat and located at the center of the universe. In the past, a few Church Officials may have fallen into the trap of persecuting today’s saints, just as the Jewish leaders and the Sanhedrin persecuted the Messiah two thousand years ago. It is important to remember a core teaching found throughout the Bible: That poor fishermen, prostitutes and tax collectors were able to recognize God Incarnate, when the Chief Priests, Doctors of the Law and Pharisees condemned Him.”

 

[adrift]

Well let’s see, I don’t think there is another person who ever lived or is alive today who protected more Pedophiles than Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani. I restate my axiom; no one protects a pedophile but another pedophile. Show me where I’m wrong.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art8.htm

2477
Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:

    * of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;

    * of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279

    * of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

saintanthonygroton.org/quest/poem.html

Fr. Berti, also, stated that the Pope said: “Whoever reads it will understand.”

It should be noted that these statements were never part of any official Church proclamation, and never appeared in the L’Osservatore Romano, the official newspaper of the Holy See.

However, when Fr. Berti tried to have the Vatican Press publish the work, it was rejected by two commissioners of the Holy Office who had studied the works.

Pope Pius XII did nothing to stop this rejection, which was followed later by a condemnation, when Fr. Berti went to a lay publisher to publish the works (even though he had signed an agreement not to publish the works).

 

[adrift]

AdvancedChristianity.com

Not a site that is faithful to the Church or to history.

Try this

newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread pruned of off-topic posts.
Remain on topic or expect the thread to be closed.

 

[Greg11430]

Very interesting Michael Francis, cat got your tongue? When you are unable to respond to a posting regarding Maria Valtorta’s writings with logical reasoning, you just delete it. I guess you will continue misleading the Forum readers and deleting anything that conflicts with your own personal views, no matter how factual and supported it is. Why don’t you do a little research instead of surrendering so easily. Would it kill you to do a little homework?

 

[mosher]

Hi,

 I really enjoy reading Maria Valtorta’s writings, but could not understand how the Church could be so blind in discerning this wonderful gift from God.  After conducting many searches, I found a great site that meticulously explains how the Church fumbled this discernment, thoroughly supporting their documentation with excellent footnotes and powerful references:

advancedchristianity.com/Pages/Father%20Vernard%20Poslusney/011%20The%20Poem%20of%20the%20Man-God.htm

 There are also recorded explanations by the late Father Vernard Poslusney, a famous Roman Catholic Priest who conducted conferences and seminars with Archbishop Fulton Sheen:

advancedchristianity.com/Pages/Father%20Vernard%20Poslusney/010%20Private%20Revelation.htm

 After listening to just a few of these recordings, I think Father Vernard could enlighten even the most steadfast Valtorta critic.

Greg

First of all this lacks humility and in effect proves the danger of the Poem of the Man God. When we separate ourselves from the authority of the Church because of our own subjective disposition fostered by such a writing then we know it is not of God. There are many other examples of this such as the disproved Bay Side Apparition and others. We see from the example of the Saints that when the Church makes a judgment even if we perceive it to be wrong then we still maintain obedience unless it is of grave harm to the soul. The best modern example of that is Padre Pio who was restricted until an investigation was completed. In humble obedience he submitted to the authority of the Church.

Those who feel that this work is profitable also need to follow the example of Padre Pio and submit the judgment of the Church.

Very interesting Michael Francis, cat got your tongue? When you are unable to respond to a posting regarding Maria Valtorta’s writings with logical reasoning, you just delete it. I guess you will continue misleading the Forum readers and deleting anything that conflicts with your own personal views, no matter how factual and supported it is. Why don’t you do a little research instead of surrendering so easily. Would it kill you to do a little homework?

He is a moderator and not a poster. He has a job to keep things on task. We are fortunate, if he deleted posts that were going off topic it would have been just as easy to close the thread. However, he chose to keep it open with a warning to stay on topic.

 

[Eireann]

Very interesting Michael Francis, cat got your tongue? When you are unable to respond to a posting regarding Maria Valtorta’s writings with logical reasoning, you just delete it. I guess you will continue misleading the Forum readers and deleting anything that conflicts with your own personal views, no matter how factual and supported it is. Why don’t you do a little research instead of surrendering so easily. Would it kill you to do a little homework?

Charming ! …anyway apart from the insults, if your going to post on this forum, post links so we can all see where your coming from.

You just post up stories with no links, therefore the credibility of them have to be questioned, I always post up links.

Are we just to take your word for it ?

 

[Greg11430]

Sorry Mosher, as you are aware, a factual supported response would be promptly deleted, so it makes no sense to post it. But from my previous replies, if you had a chance to even read them, you already know that your arguments and positions are incorrect and unsupportable.

Greetings Eireann, I see that you have no problem with fallacious testimony and false witness, just love that Christian integrity! Insults? No, only the most factually supported arguments you encountered to date, basically you were checkmated. Contrary to your posting, there were no stories, only facts that were supported with more links than the previous 280 postings on this thread. In fact, when you asked for more links, I promptly posted about ten in a row. How could anyone take my word for it when even the response, full of links, was promptly deleted by Michael Francis.

 

[Eireann]

Greetings Eireann, I see that you have no problem with fallacious testimony and false witness, just love that Christian integrity! Insults?

When I checked in you had 3 posts, so others were deleted, not my problem, no you didn’t check me, I never even got started with you.
Regardless of your previous links, all your replies to me were without links, so can’t be verified.

Your post below is lacking in charity, and you now don’t deserve an answer on this thread, from me at least.

And you accuse me of being UnChristian… and you have the nerve to talk about false witness.

Very interesting Michael Francis,** cat got your tongue**? When you are unable to respond to a posting regarding Maria Valtorta’s writings with logical reasoning, you just delete it. **I guess you will continue misleading the Forum readers **and deleting anything that conflicts with your own personal views, no matter how factual and supported it is. Why don’t you do a little research instead of surrendering so easily. Would it kill you to do a little homework?

As this is all off topic and posts were deleted, definitely my last, as it lacks continuity.

Greetings Greg11430 :tiphat:

 

[Greg11430]

Hi Eireann,
Then please check with Michael Francis to see if he saved any records of the postings he deleted, as it would be illogical for me to re-post them.

 

[lvande]

Hi Eireann,

 Then please check with Michael Francis to see if he saved any records of the postings he deleted, as it would be illogical for me to re-post them.

All right you guys - enough bravado! Greg11430 thank you for posting your links - I found them very helpful and I encourage all of you to check them out. Unfortunately, Greg, your posts, after I read them, left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. Please do, all of you stick to enlightening one another. There is truth to be found in both sides of the argument. This all very much reminds me of when I left my sheltered parochial school background to go off to public university (some 20 years ago). I was unprepared for the intense confrontations regarding my catholic faith. Fortunately I didn’t turn a blind eye and go along with their side of the argument. However, in learning more about my faith I began to understand more and more with COMPASSION their arguments and confusion regarding catholic teaching. This only lead me to a desire to learn more and more about the church I love so much. Reading Maria Valtorta’s works does NOT go against catholic teaching - all of you who say that one must have humble obedience and go along with the church on this one are in some ways wrong. The church (again if you really want to know what’s going on in both sides of the argument - check the other side out) has not shut the door on this one - so be careful. Especially for those of you who are strong in your catholic faith (which I’m assuming most of you are) there is no harm in reading these books - they will neither turn you away from the church itself or scramble catholic doctrine. I would like to hear from those of you who have read all of the Poem (not bits and pieces) and believe otherwise. That wasn’t meant to be sarcastic or a challenge - I really do want to hear from you.

 

[Greg11430]

Posting 1

Dear Ivande, I refrained from making additional postings until I had a thought on how to cope with the deleting issue. I decided to re-post it as it is deleted. The number in the upper left-hand corner is intended to reflect how many times this entry was deleted and re-posted. I’m also a concerned over the site moderator’s (Michael Francis), threat of wiping out the entire thread because of my previous three removed postings. Nevertheless, if he chooses to do so, it would at least be an admission to himself and the site’s staff, that their views are unsupportable. In a nutshell, the three deleted postings reflect as follow:

1. Pope Pius XII was presented with Maria Valtorta’s writings in 1947, after spending a year studying them, he summoned and gave his approval before three Priests witnesses in 1948. Consider that a “Last Will and Testament” is held valid in the United States with two ordinary citizen witnesses. Also consider that the Papal Imprimatur for Maria Valtorta’s writings was witnessed by three distinguished Priests, and logged at the Vatican by Cardinal Edourd Gagnon. Pope Pius XII was know for being one of our most intellectual Popes, promulgating 46 encyclicals. In addition to giving his approving to Maria Valtorta’s writings before three Priest witnesses, Pope Pius XII is one of few Popes in recent history to exercise his Papal infallibility by issuing an apostolic constitution, which defined the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The following links offer testimonies to the 1947 Papal order:

exdeo.com/brC/berti/index.php

advancedchristianity.com/Pages/Father%20Vernard%20Poslusney/011%20The%20Poem%20of%20the%20Man-God.htm

bardstown.com/%7Ebrchrys/Corberti.htm

 

[Greg11430]

1. The fundamental differences between Valtorta supports and opponents can be summarized as follows; Supporters of Maria’s writings place their assurance in Pope Pius XII’s Papal discernment, the three Priest witnesses and the record of the event. Opponents stake their confidence in Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, the chief force responsible for spearheading Valtorta’s writings and placing them on the Index of forbidden books.

In all honesty, what sparked the frantic deleting of my postings, is that these entries shined a light on the character of this hero, of those opposing the Poem. The site moderator had an immediate response; turn the light back off. Essentially, remove the postings and choose darkness. This is due to the fact that Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani is even more famous for single handedly defaming the credibility, respect and veracity of the Roman Catholic Church. I’m referring to the recent Pedophile scandal as uncovered by CBS News and disclosed in an August 6, 2003 article entitled, “Sex Crimes Cover Up by Vatican”. The following link supports this fact, of which Valtorta opponents endeavor to conceal (clearly demonstrated by this site’s moderator):

cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

The policy authored by Cardinal Ottaviani mandated the Church Hierarchy, under the penalty of excommunication, to protect pedophile priests that repeatedly molested young children. His directive imposed an order of absolute silence on the violated child victims, their aggrieved families and witnesses to the crime, also under penalty of excommunication. Furthermore, it served as a guide to insulate pedophile priests from civil authorities by moving them from parish to parish. Many investigating agencies concluded that this Ottaviani policy was the single greatest cause of the recent child molestation scandal in the Roman Catholic Church.

What kind of person would be compelled to shipwreck the entire Holy Roman Catholic Church to protect pedophiles and silence molested children? This mysterious answer lies deep within Valtorta opponents who joined Ottaviani’s cunning efforts to suppress the Papal order of Pope Pius XII.

Moreover, the surreptitious methods Cardinal Ottaviani utilized in placing Maria Valtorta’s writings on the Index, offers additional insight into his character. Personally offended at being bypassed in the Church approval process, he waited until Pope Pius XII passed away before pouncing on the Poem. In Italy “The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me” (“The Poem Of The Man-God” in USA because that title was used elsewhere), was published in 1956 with the Popes approval affixed to the inside front cover. Cardinal Ottaviani laid in wait for three years until Pope Pius XII past away in 1958. As soon as the next Pontiff, Pope John XXIII took office, he hastily had Valtorta’s writings placed on the Index in 1959, manipulating the new Pope who was unaware the approval, into signing the decree.

advancedchristianity.com/Pages/Father%20Vernard%20Poslusney/011%20The%20Poem%20of%20the%20Man-God.htm

 

[Greg11430]

1. In addition, let’s also take a closer look at this Index of forbidden books that Valtorta opponents place all their pride in. It was abolished for a good reason, because no one in their right mind could possibly take it seriously any longer. The following is a quote taken directly off the AdvancedChristianity.com site:

“One example would be how Roman Catholic Church hierarchy placed Galileo’s writings on the forbidden book list. They burned his written observations and nearly burned him at the stake in order to force him to retract his ideas regarding the earth being round and orbiting the sun. He was brutally compelled to sign retractions stating that the world was actually flat and located at the center of the universe. A few Church Officials may have fallen into the trap of persecuting today’s saints, just as the Jewish leaders and the Sanhedrin persecuted the Messiah two thousand years ago. It is important to remember that poor fishermen, tax collectors and prostitutes were able to recognize the Christ when the Chief Priests, Doctors of the Law and Pharisees condemned Him.”

The choice is simple; Valtorta supporters chose Pope Pius XII’s discernment. Valtorta opponents have sided with Cardinal Ottaviani.

 

[adrift]

The site moderator had an immediate response; turn the light back off. Essentially, remove the postings and choose darkness.

Unfortunately, you did not shine a light what you did was slander and a sin against charity.

The web site you are so found of citing from is unfaithful to the Church and should not be relied on to substantiate anything.

Now the claim is made that Pope Pius XII gave approval. What is the proof of this statement? It comes from those who promoted this book even when told not to.

Confident of papal approval, Father Berti brought the books to the Vatican
press. However, in 1949, two commissioners of the Holy Office, Msgr.
Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the “Poem,” ordering
Berti to hand over every copy and sign an agreement not to publish it.
Father Berti returned the manuscripts to Valtorta and handed over only his
typed versions

In other words, the first fruit of this book was disobedience. Note that this occurred before the death of Pope Pius XII.

What about the suppose acceptance of Pope Pius XII
saintanthonygroton.org/quest/poem.html

It should be noted that these statements were never part of any official Church proclamation, and never appeared in the L’Osservatore Romano, the official newspaper of the Holy See.
However, when Fr. Berti tried to have the Vatican Press publish the work, it was rejected by two commissioners of the Holy Office who had studied the works.
Pope Pius XII did nothing to stop this rejection, which was followed later by a condemnation, when Fr. Berti went to a lay publisher to publish the works (even though he had signed an agreement not to publish the works).
Again, Pope Pius XII did not stop the condemnation. It is believed that if the Pope did originally approve of the writings, it may have been that he only saw excerpts (the Pope’s spiritual director, Cardinal Augustin Bea stated that he (the Cardinal) only read certain small parts of the books, and had no objections, but no one knows which parts he read).
Finally, Pope John XXIII, also, signed a declaration of condemnation.

I do not believe Pope Pius XII read the entire book and never gave his approval. I do know that Pope John XXIII condemned it as well as the present Pope. That is good enough for me that this book is dangerous.

COMMENT by Fr. Mitch Pacwa,

Volume I, pp. 195, 223: The use of screwdrivers is the blunder of blunders for a book said to be dictated by Jesus and Mary. Screws were not even invented at the time of Christ.
There are theological errors, as when “Jesus says” (vol. 1, p. 30) that
Eve’s temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent
sensuously “caressed” her. While she “began the sin by herself,” she
“accomplished it with her companion.” Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta
may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not.

I also want to point out that this book was written in volumes the last one printed after Pope Pius XII died. It was only after all were printed that they were put on the Index ( a prudent descion having nothing to do with the death of Pope Pius XII) and had already been condemned during the life of Pope Pius XII. As others have pointed out that even though the Index has been eliminated the force of it remains to this day. Promotion and printing of the book is in direct disobedience, which I have already said, is the fruit of this book.