I Need Help with Poem of the Man-God

[JimG]

Quote:
Yet it was through the Medjugorje messages that people were told
to read Poem of the Man-God.

If this is true, then I am even more dubious of the Valtorta writings, since they are promoted by an unapproved and dubious apparition.

As was noted above, no private revelation is binding upon Catholics as a matter of faith. And all private revelations should be treated skeptically until approved by the Church. (And even Church approval would not make a private revelation binding upon Faith.)

I actually read through the first half of the Poem, and after going through it, I must confess that I found it unconvincing; I simply do not believe that God would wish to go through such matters in the same detail as a TV miniseries. It just seemed unfitting. But, that’s just me.

 

[thistle]

Quote:
Yet it was through the Medjugorje messages that people were told
to read Poem of the Man-God.

If this is true, then I am even more dubious of the Valtorta writings, since they are promoted by an unapproved and dubious apparition.

As was noted above, no private revelation is binding upon Catholics as a matter of faith. And all private revelations should be treated skeptically until approved by the Church. (And even Church approval would not make a private revelation binding upon Faith.)

I actually read through the first half of the Poem, and after going through it, I must confess that I found it unconvincing; I simply do not believe that God would wish to go through such matters in the same detail as a TV miniseries. It just seemed unfitting. But, that’s just me.

I agree. Medjogorie is fake and if this supported somehow by Medjogorie then the writings belong in the waste bin.

 

[Eliza10]

…If this is true, then I am even more dubious … I must confess that I found it unconvincing; I simply do not believe that God would… It just seemed unfitting. But, that’s just me.

I really appreciate the humility of your opinion! Its refreshing!

 

[Eliza10]

I agree. Medjogorie is fake and if this supported somehow by Medjogorie then the writings belong in the waste bin.

Hmm. I bet when some people heard Judas Iscariot preach Christ, they said, “If he is with Him, then I *can’t *believe He is the Messiah!”

I would like to comment more on this thread and I will later, before Ash Wednesday, when I make my annual Lenten disappearance. This time of year, snowed in, I spend too much time on the computer and changes for Lent always help me get my balance back.

 

[thistle]

Hmm. I bet when some people heard Judas Iscariot preach Christ, they said, “If he is with Him, then I *can’t *believe He is the Messiah!”

I would like to comment more on this thread and I will later, before Ash Wednesday, when I make my annual Lenten disappearance. This time of year, snowed in, I spend too much time on the computer and changes for Lent always help me get my balance back.

Pretty stupid comment on Judas!!
Comment as much as you want but the Poem of the Man-God is a forbidden reading by the Church.

1. It was put on the Index because it was heretical and not as some suggest because it did not have the Nihil Obstat and Imprimateur.
2. Also some have suggested that with the Index being dissolved it means all books that were on it are no longer forbidden. Show me an official source that says that.

3.The CDF ( Cardinal Ratzinger) condemned it. Show me where this condemnation has been retracted.

1. Also some suggest this is a Public revelation which again is wrong and is heresy. Public revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle.

Refute these 4 points with Church documentation and you might have some credibility. Saying Bishop XYZ approves of the Poem is not evidence of the Church position as there are also priests and bishops around that unfortunately give wrong teachings on contraception, homosexuality etc.

 

[Love4Mary2]

The Poem was written 36yrs before Medjugorje, so it was being read long before the apparitions of Mary advocated it. Mary’s latest message tells us to read the Bible regularly, if your argument was valid, then those who do not believe in the Medjugorje apparitions would have to stop reading the Bible.

“And even Church approval would not make a private revelation binding upon Faith.”

Again, true, no argument there.

“I actually read through the first half of the Poem, and after going through it, I must confess that I found it unconvincing; I simply do not believe that God would wish to go through such matters in the same detail as a TV miniseries. It just seemed unfitting. But, that’s just me.”

Somehow I’m not surprised, but neither did Cardinal Ottaviani.

Here are only a few who found it convincing: Padre Pio, Mother Theresa, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, Blessed Gabriel Allegra, OFM., Father Gabriel Roschini, OSM, Archbishop Soosa Pakiam M., Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, The Secretary Of The Sacred Congregation Of Rites Archbishop Monsignor Alphonse Carinci, Father Bea, S.J., from The Dean Of The Lateran Theological Faculty and Consultant To The Holy Office, Monsignor Lattanzi, from The Dean Of Consistorial Counselors for the Holy See and a teacher at the Lateran Professor Camilo Corsanego, Fr. Dreyfus, of the French Biblical and Archeological School, Jerusalem, John Haffert, Fr, Marco Giraudo, 0.P. Commissioner of the Holy Office in 1961, Sister Monica Foltier, Jean Aulagnier, specialist in ancient calendars, Msgr. Gianfranco Nolli, director of the Vatican Museum, Dr, Vittorio Tredici, geologist and mineralogist, Italy, Prof, Fabrizio Braccini, and University of Palermo.

The question is: who would you trust with your kids?

 

[Love4Mary2]

Hi Eliza10, did you catch the Mary Angela Nangini program last night? If not, a recording of it will usually be on AdvancedChristianity.com in a few days.

advancedchristianity.com/Pages/Mary%20Angela%20Nangini/Mary_Angela_Nangini.htm

 

[Liz101]

Sometimes I feel like placing our faith and morals in the hands of the Holy Office under Cardinal Ottaviani may be like placing our faith and morals in the hands of John Carr, Pee Wee Herman or Michael Jackson.

I feel much more confident with placing faith and morals in the hands of those who were able to recognize the finger of God in Maria Valtorta’s writings, such as: Padre Pio, Mother Theresa, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, Blessed Gabriel Allegra, OFM., Father Gabriel Roschini, OSM, etc.

That’s just me though.

 

[thistle]

Sometimes I feel like placing our faith and morals in the hands of the Holy Office under Cardinal Ottaviani may be like placing our faith and morals in the hands of John Carr, Pee Wee Herman or Michael Jackson.

I feel much more confident with placing faith and morals in the hands of those who were able to recognize the finger of God in Maria Valtorta’s writings, such as: Padre Pio, Mother Theresa, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, Blessed Gabriel Allegra, OFM., Father Gabriel Roschini, OSM, etc.

That’s just me though.

I go along with Pope Benedict XVI who condemned the writings when he was Cardinal Ratzinger and who has not retracted his condemnation.

 

[Liz101]

Not very smart. Pope Benedict XVI never studied and made his own Condemnation. He only upheld Cardinal Ottaviani’s condemnation. He may have been reluctant because he served directly under Cardinal Ottaviani. He was personally groomed by him, and eventually became Cardinal Ottaviani’s successor.

 

[Love4Mary2]

You go girl!

It makes a lot of sense. I guess a lot of these Saints were as smart as they were Holy, to see through all that.

 

[childofmary1143]

Pretty stupid comment on Judas!!
Comment as much as you want but the Poem of the Man-God is a forbidden reading by the Church.

1. It was put on the Index because it was heretical and not as some suggest because it did not have the Nihil Obstat and Imprimateur.
2. Also some have suggested that with the Index being dissolved it means all books that were on it are no longer forbidden. Show me an official source that says that.

3.The CDF ( Cardinal Ratzinger) condemned it. Show me where this condemnation has been retracted.

1. Also some suggest this is a Public revelation which again is wrong and is heresy. Public revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle.

Refute these 4 points with Church documentation and you might have some credibility. Saying Bishop XYZ approves of the Poem is not evidence of the Church position as there are also priests and bishops around that unfortunately give wrong teachings on contraception, homosexuality etc.

Regarding Point Number 1, it was put on the because it didn’t have a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. Here is the link to substantiate it:

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/VALTORTA.TXT

*The article complained that the “Poem” broke Canon Law. “Though they treat
exclusively of religious issues, these volumes do not have an
“imprimatur,” which is required by Canon 1385, sect. 1, n. 2.” *

Regarding Point Number 2 Read what Colin B. Donovan, STL said: *Is it forbidden? In the strict canonical sense (legal prohibition and sanctions for violating), no. *

Here is the website link to substantiate the above quote: ewtn.com/expert/answers/poem_of_the_man.htm

Regarding the 3rd Point, the CDF said that people could read it if it put the disclaimer on it:
*
In 1993 Bishop Boland of Birmingham, AL wrote the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith about “Poem” on behalf of an inquirer. Cardinal Ratzinger responded by letter, which the bishop then quoted in his response to the person, who shared it with us. The response noted that because of continuing interest in the books the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had requested the Italian Bishops Conference to ask the publisher (who as I noted never in the past has complied with Roman decisions) to have a disclaimer printed in the volumes that “clearly indicated from the very first page that the ‘visions’ and ‘dictations’ referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin.” Whether this has been done I don’t know. *

See the same website link for verification of that.

Regarding Point number 4, I don’t know or care what others say. I know that I certainly don’t consider it Public Revelation.

 

[shannyk]

Mary’s latest message tells us to read the Bible regularly, if your argument was valid, then those who do not believe in the Medjugorje apparitions would have to stop reading the Bible.

Please explain to me how this makes ANY sense. We don’t HAVE to believe in Medjugorje that’s what the Church through public revelation of the Gospels, and Sacred Tradition tells us. No one is bound to obey what any apparition might say to do or not do, nor are we sinning in ANY WAY if we don’t. By your reasoning, since I don’t accept Medjegorje, I should not read the bible. That’s rediculous.

I could have a dream where Mary tells me to read the Bible more. Just because what is said in my dream isn’t in contradiction to the Church’s teachings, doesn’t in any way make it an authentic private revelation. nor would anyone be bound to think that, myself included.

It seems to me that there is a gross misunderstand of the place that private revelation has in the Faith.

 

[adrift]

I thought this thread was dead.

n an advertisement for Poem Of The Man-God: “Imprimatur by Pope Pius XII in a private audience, February 26, 1948.” It is impossible to give an imprimatur in a private audience, not even if we were told that it was given by Pope Saint Pius X! A nihil obstat is required by any bishop, since he has not read the book, to assure us readers that nothing, in the book, is contrary to our Holy Faith. Even if there is an Italian edition of a book, with an imprimatur, and it is later published in other languages, it requires an imprimatur in each language.

jloughnan.tripod.com/critique.htm

My first objection to this book, was its title. Never have I heard of our Holy Redeemer referred to as Man-God, but God-Man. Our Eternal Word took on flesh, not man taking on God.

You will notice that Valtorta’s vision is a soap-opera. Her description, at times, of events, clothing, flowers, and persons, are superb; other times, she is banal, cheap, vulgar, and stupid. She was a teacher! Some of her quotes: “He can see nothing.” “Mary is thinking of Her little house.” “Joseph is concerned about his work.” “sleeping unaware of it all” probably withdraws to the kitchen for a little while, etc. Valtorta cannot read minds!

I will first quote some choice morsels! The text is either so bad, or self-explanatory, therefore few comments are needed. Valtorta’s Jesus = V’s Jesus!

“Mary begins to sing in a low voice, then She raises Her voice slightly. But She does not sing loudly. Still, it is a voice vibrating in the little room and one can perceive the vibration of Her Soul in it. I do not understand the words as they are spoken in Hebrew. But as now and again She repeats ‘Jehova’ I realize that it is a sacred song, perhaps a psalm. Mary is probably remembering the songs of the Temple…”

The next paragraph is as follows:

"The song changes into a prayer:‘Mary’ asks God to send Christ into the world; she offers herself; she repeats ‘Send the Redeemer to your maidservant…Come, come, O Spirit of the Lord…Come, Prince of Peace!’ F.J.L. summary.]
In summary: Valtorta has her “Mary” singing, in Hebrew (which Valtorta does not understand) a word which did not exist until later Christians mistakenly and erroneously used for the name of God - but, in Jesus and Mary’s time, for Jews to utter it was a capital offense!!!
Then, for the convenience of Valtorta’, “Mary” switches to a language that Valtorta can understand - very probably, to Italian!

I know that the moral force of the index exist because the present Pope says it does. I know that it has not been approved and I know that it began with a disobedient priest. The Church has said that it is dangerous. I believe the Church. The Church has said not to read it. Those who do knowing that the Church says not to are disobedient. They are substituting the Church’s judgment for their own. All the great Saints submitted to Church authority even when they were right. I don’t claim authority. I submit to it.

 

[adrift]

Regarding Point Number 1, it was put on the because it didn’t have a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. Here is the link to substantiate it:

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/VALTORTA.TXT

*The article complained that the “Poem” broke Canon Law. “Though they treat
exclusively of religious issues, these volumes do not have an
“imprimatur,” which is required by Canon 1385, sect. 1, n. 2.” *

Regarding Point Number 2 Read what Colin B. Donovan, STL said: *Is it forbidden? In the strict canonical sense (legal prohibition and sanctions for violating), no. *

Here is the website link to substantiate the above quote: ewtn.com/expert/answers/poem_of_the_man.htm

Regarding the 3rd Point, the CDF said that people could read it if it put the disclaimer on it:
*
In 1993 Bishop Boland of Birmingham, AL wrote the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith about “Poem” on behalf of an inquirer. Cardinal Ratzinger responded by letter, which the bishop then quoted in his response to the person, who shared it with us. The response noted that because of continuing interest in the books the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had requested the Italian Bishops Conference to ask the publisher (who as I noted never in the past has complied with Roman decisions) to have a disclaimer printed in the volumes that “clearly indicated from the very first page that the ‘visions’ and ‘dictations’ referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin.” Whether this has been done I don’t know. *

See the same website link for verification of that.

Regarding Point number 4, I don’t know or care what others say. I know that I certainly don’t consider it Public Revelation.

Point one from the article you use to substantiate your claim

When volume four appeared, the Holy Office examined the “Poem” and
condemned it, recommending that it be placed on the Index of Forbidden
Books Dec. 16, 1959. Pope John XXIII signed the decree and ordered it
published. L’Osservatore Romano, on Jan. 6, 1960, printed the
condemnation with an accompanying front-page article, “A Badly
Fictionalized Life of Jesus,” to explain it.

Point 2 from your source

But people claim that never have they understood Scripture as when they have read “Poem.” Understood in a certain way, as explained by Maria Valtorta! But this way the Church has said is not according to its mind. Catholics do well to follow the Holy See in this.

 

[Love4Mary2]

Hi Shannyk, it is you who are not making any sense. You argued that the Poem should be avoided because is was recommended by the Medjugorje apparitions, which have yet to be approved. Notwithstanding that the Medjugorje apparition messages have been telling us to read the Bible often. Using the same logic, it would mean to also avoid the Bible.

Hi Adrift, the original title was “The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me”. Well after Maria Valtorta’s death, the publisher chose “The Poem Of The Man-God”, because there was something already copyrighted with the original title that Maria used.

Why would the Holy Office go through the whole procedure of abolishing the index if it meant nothing to do so? It doesn’t make sense.

As pointed out in posting #289, the Index was abolished for a good reason, because no one in their right mind could possibly take it seriously any longer.

“One example would be how Roman Catholic Church hierarchy placed Galileo’s writings on the forbidden book list. They burned his written observations and nearly burned him at the stake in order to force him to retract his ideas regarding the earth being round and orbiting the sun. He was brutally compelled to sign retractions stating that the world was actually flat and located at the center of the universe”.

In 1966, Pope Paul VI took the action of suppressing the Index of Forbidden Books, which liberated the Poem from ecclesiastical restriction. There are many people who argue that this action was taken specifically to liberate the Poem, allowing Church compliance to the original Papal Order by Pope Pius XII. As a note Pope Paul the VI is the same Pope who endorsed “The Virgin Mary In The Writings of Maria Valtorta” by Father Gabriel Roschini, OSM. A book that enthusiastically supports Valtorta’s writings. The first two pages contain a letter of endorsement by Pope Paul VI. One page is a photocopy of the original letter complete with Vatican insignia, the other is the English translation. Father Gabriel Roschini was commissioned to discredit Valtorta’s works. He was like Saul who saw the light and became St. Paul.

 

[shannyk]

You argued that the Poem should be avoided because is was recommended by the Medjugorje apparitions, which have yet to be approved.

Hi love,

I’m afraid that’s not what I said.

I said, it seemed problematic to me that for 1.) people would heed advice given from an unapproved apparition. 2). that the locutions recommended by this unapproved apparition is also, unapproved. And formerly condemned. 3). To try to give credibility to Poem based on the Medjugorje recommendation of it, is odd since Medjugorje has no credibility to begin with. I wouldn’t either avoid or read the bible regardless of what Medjugorje has to say about it since I give it absolutely no weight in faith matters. The Church tells us we can read the Bible, so that trumps anything any apparition would say on the matter.

 

[adrift]

The Satanic Bible was also on the index. Do you think it is wise to read that?

Hi Adrift, the original title was “The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me”. Well after Maria Valtorta’s death, the publisher chose “The Poem Of The Man-God”, because there was something already copyrighted with the original title that Maria used.

You cannot copyright a title. Why the title was changed could not have been for that reason.
Mary would not have said God it would have been a deed punishable by death. In the quotes you posted earlier you have Mary not only saying God but calling Him Father. We did not know of this relationship until Jesus. He is the one who told us to call Him Father. This “Poem” although it is hardly a poem, is riddled with theological problems.

COMMENT by Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Volume IV Page 240. Another strange and imprecise statement made by Mary is that she will “be second to Peter with regard to ecclesiastical hierarchy…” Our Lady surpasses St Peter’s holiness, but she is not in the hierarchy, let alone second to Peter.

One example would be how Roman Catholic Church hierarchy placed Galileo’s writings on the forbidden book list. They burned his written observations and nearly burned him at the stake in order to force him to retract his ideas regarding the earth being round and orbiting the sun. He was brutally compelled to sign retractions stating that the world was actually flat and located at the center of the universe

Your understanding of this is flawed.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=309362&Forums=0&Experts=3&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=Galileo&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=1&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

In the first place, we have to remember that the Church NEVER SAID it was heresy to say that the earth revolves arounc thd sun. The first to say that was Copernicus, a Catholic monk, and his book was never condemned. What the Church did was to insist that this theory was still unproven in Galileo’s time, which scientists like Stanley Jaki confirm. For a full discussion of Galileo and the Church’s treatment of him, see my latest book, THE CLEAVING OF CHRISTENDOM, which you may obtain from Christendom Press in Front Royal, Virginia by calling toll-free 1-800-698-6649, or at your local library by inter-library loan. - Dr. Carroll

 

[Love4Mary2]

Hi Shannyk, I apologize, it appeared to me that you were reasoning that the Poem should be avoided because it was endorsed by the Medjugorje apparitions, in which you obviously consider false. On that topic, as I stated in previous postings, I’m not a big follower of Medjugorje, but I have a hard time believing that something could be masquerading as the Mother of God for 25yrs without God doing something to halt it. It’s basically the longevity that personally refrains me from considering it false.

To me the following seems a little far-fetched, but I have been told by a Medjugorje devotee that after the last appearance, God will miraculously place some sort of proof at the site of the first apparition. Purportedly being the most convincing permanent sign God ever left on earth. It is supposed to be indestructible and last for eternity. In addition there would be no other visions or locutions of any kind till the end of the world, because this sign will be far greater than anyone would ever need to believe. It sounds a little dubious to me, but I’ll have to wait and see. I was also informed that there are supposed to be ten secrets that will be revealed sequentially, each one three days before some kind of huge catastrophic event. I haven’t looked into the apparitions enough to make any other comments.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Father Benedict Groeschel discussed this very topic just last week or the week before on his live TV program on EWTN. … Sunday Night Live at 7pm. Repeated frequently.

He also discusses this topic, of private revelation, in his book “A Small Still Voice”.