I need Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage

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jochoa said:
If by some means a couple desiring to be married knew they were infertile, I would discourage marriage between the two. Also, I wouldn’t advocate against any valid opposite-sex marriage for any reason.
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If you’d care to clarify how you’d go about discouraging something without advocating against it, that would be helpful.
Furthermore, If a marriage isn’t committed until death, the “marriage” will hurt the community in the long run.
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Thinking about how many years of chicken-souping would need to be negated in order for that math to work, I’m forced to conclude this is an argument based on bad arithmetic.
If a person is straining the community prior to marriage, not only does s/he need a care-provider, s/he shouldn’t be granted the duty to provide for others. This is why communities shouldn’t allow children to marry.
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There’s a lot to be said for the singular they.

So they’d need a caregiver, but that caregiver shouldn’t be a spouse, and those who need care are incapable of providing any.

Well this has been a fun conversation.

Thank you for your thoughts.
 
Freddy said:
So how is this going to work? If you are married, how did you know you weren’t infertile? If you are not married, how are you going to find out?
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In these cases, knowing a lack of sterilization procedures is suffice.
 
jochoa said:
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Freddy:
So how is this going to work? If you are married, how did you know you weren’t infertile? If you are not married, how are you going to find out?
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In these cases, knowing a lack of sterilization procedures is suffice.
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That makes no sense. Can you please clarify what you are trying to say?
 
Juvenal said:
If you’d care to clarify how you’d go about discouraging something without advocating against it, that would be helpful.
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Differing roles in a community need differing permissions.
There’s a lot to be said for the singular they.
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What are some of the things you say about the singular they?
So they’d need a caregiver, but that caregiver shouldn’t be a spouse, and those who need care are incapable of providing any.
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Marriage should be founded on wanting to serve one another and the community. Can you recognize the troubles to come, if a person is getting married in order to be served?
 
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Inquisitor85 said:
This is why solid sex and relationships education is a must, you really should have an understanding of the reproductive system by that age.
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Before you’re 12?! Absolutely not - you’re only further proving my point.
 
Hopefully it won’t, goes back to the old argument of nurture vs nature I suppose.
 
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I have a few explanations based on St. Thomas.

First, regarding sexual orientation. Sodomy, aka homosexuality, is unnatural and therefore bad for it is against the very nature of our species. As living beings, we need to procreate and leave descendants. This is only possible when mature males and females humans engage on the marital act the way it is supposed to be for generation of a new life. If it is done in other ways (wrong manners), alone, with same sex (which is the case discussed here), with non mature female/male, or with other species etc., procreation will not happen…

One more thing. It is important to understand that marriage is defined by the stable union between a man and a woman until one of them dies. Any other kind of union is to be called something else for the sake of good use of language and clarity of communication. And I am sure English is a language rich and flexible enough to give names to these other types of unions.
 
Why? Good sex education reduces the teenage pregnancy rate and reduces the rate of sexually transmitted infections. What’s the problem with that? Let me ask you then, how would you explain to a child under twelve where babies come from?
SuperLawyer said:
Also, normalizing homosexuality puts us on a slope to other horrors, such as transgenderism and eventually pedophilia.
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[Citation Still Needed]
 
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Freddy said:
That makes no sense. Can you please clarify what you are trying to say?
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To the question of how does [one go about finding out if his/her desired spouse is fertile]?
Knowing, prior to marriage, that neither spouse has had any surgically sterilizing procedures is sufficient knowledge going into a marriage that neither fiancé is sterile…in other words, when couples consider marriage, the question comes up: What are your thoughts on having children?
To which the responses are:
  1. I’m open to having children.
  2. I’m closed off to having children right now, but open to having children later.
  3. I can’t because I had a surgery that prevents me from creating children.
 
SuperLawyer said:
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Inquisitor85:
This is why solid sex and relationships education is a must, you really should have an understanding of the reproductive system by that age.
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Before you’re 12?! Absolutely not - you’re only further proving my point.
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Some children reach puberty by age 11, so it would be good for children to know something about sexuality before age 12.
 
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jochoa said:
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Freddy:
That makes no sense. Can you please clarify what you are trying to say?
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To the question of how does [one go about finding out if his/her desired spouse is fertile]?
Knowing, prior to marriage, that neither spouse has had any surgically sterilizing procedures is sufficient knowledge going into a marriage that neither fiancé is sterile…in other words, when couples consider marriage, the question comes up: What are your thoughts on having children?
To which the responses are:
  1. I’m open to having children.
  2. I’m closed off to having children right now, but open to having children later.
  3. I can’t because I had a surgery that prevents me from creating children.
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You don’t need to have had a medical procedure to be infertile. I know two couples who can’t conceive because of a medical problem with the husband in one case and the wife in another. Problems they only found out about after they were married.

So how are you going to determine if any given couple can have children?
 
Bonds are formed within social environments and are characterized by it. Example; the combat environment provides a powerful bonding experience that unites soldiers.

A fact about bonds that is overlooked is that they are exclusive to certain environments.

Animal pairbonds form so the male and female can safely mate and raise young if necessary depending on the natural requirements of the species.

The human pairbond is no different in that respect. Human bonds are characterized by the requirements of human nature. The fundamental purpose for the human pairbond is to create a safe environment for mating and raising young. If that environment is rejected the bond can’t form. The bond requires that environment to form just as war and combat is required for the powerful bond between soldiers.
 
Benadam said:
Bonds are formed within social environments and are characterized by it. Example; the combat environment provides a powerful bonding experience that unites soldiers.

A fact about bonds that is overlooked is that they are exclusive to certain environments.

Animal pairbonds form so the male and female can safely mate and raise young if necessary depending on the natural requirements of the species.

The human pairbond is no different in that respect. Human bonds are characterized by the requirements of human nature. The fundamental purpose for the human pairbond is to create a safe environment for mating and raising young. If that environment is rejected the bond can’t form. The bond requires that environment to form just as war and combat is required for the powerful bond between soldiers.
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I’d be very careful indeed about comparing what you suggest is good for humans with instinctive animal behaviour.
 
Men and women can have babies.

Two men or two women can’t; why do I have to spend money in my taxes to subsidize their love? Marriage, as the state institution, supports men and women getting married because kids are good for society.

What’s that? We’ve got all kinds of science that can make kids for gay couples, via surrogates or in vitro? Why do I have to support THAT with my tax dollars when hetero couples can do it for free?

Also, kids need a mom and a dad for the best shot in life, period. Having gay parents is much better than having no parents, but having hetero parents is also much better than having gay parents.
 
Freddy said:
I saw your opinion. It was noted. I din’t feel it needed any comment.
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Well, it does if you’re going to selectively snip my post to try and prove your point.

You can do better. I believe in you.
 
Raxus said:
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Freddy:
I saw your opinion. It was noted. I din’t feel it needed any comment.
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Well, it does if you’re going to selectively snip my post to try and prove your point.

You can do better. I believe in you.
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I wasn’t making a point. I was pointing out a contradiction. But you’re right. I can do better. Thank you.
 
How do expect to win any argument when you type and spell like that? If you want people to take you seriously, speak proper English. As for the secular argument against gay marriage, I doubt you’ll be able to find an accredited source that’s more valid than the link from the Ivy League university. Good luck with that. Maybe you should read the article instead of denying the research done by Cornell, because those researchers definitely know more than you or me or any random person on the internet. Not every debate is about winning it. Truly winning is becoming more educated on the matter, expanding your knowledge, and relinquishing hatred towards certain people. Furthermore, “immorality” is your own personal opinion, and it’s not ingrained in scientific research. You’re not going to find a truly scientific scholarly article about if it’s moral or not, only research on the facts and statistics. How you chose to reflect on the research is your own philosphy.
 
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