I need to let out my frustation

[Mirdath]

The correlation=causation fallacy is in your own mind, as I never said it was causitive. Correlation is enough for me to take notice…

Yup, if the kids hadn’t been goth, I would have surely viewed these killings as “ordinary”… hmmm, let’s think about THAT…

You rather heavily implied it by saying that their being goths is reason to sit up and take notice of the subculture’s ‘desire to be contrary, countercultural, and dark’. Something to be worried about, that might have had something to do with the murders, no?

 

[sandraladeda]

Well, you seem to have that “the whole world is against us” angst of the typical goth all wrapped up…

I have done a fair bit of work with youth groups. I have dealt with kids who have been attracted to goth. They have not been the more well-adjusted kids. This is not to say that all goths are not well-adjusted, or even that most goths are not well-adjusted. But I can say with certainty that the ones I have met have had issues. They are the ones from broken homes, the ones who have suffered abuse. In my experience, these young people are casting about for a defiant identity, and find that in goth. In a Catholic youth group, I am disturbed by kids who are into goth who are also attracted to vampires and other dark arts, many are also fascinated by cutting, and a lot of generally violent stuff. I am glad to see kids like this come to a youth group, we love them right where they are and if they show up dressed in black, odd hairdos, black nails, interesitng piercings, we just keep on loving them. I have seen kids like this, over the course of many weeks or months, and definitely over the course of a weekend retreat, grow into a deeper faith in Christ, and ultimately abandon the dark identity they had previously sought. I have never seen a young person move toward Christ and then goth, but I have seen them move towards Christ and abandon goth.

I am not saying this is the way it is for all goths. I just haven’t met the well-adjusted ones. So when a 12 year old girl becomes goth, and shortly thereafter, participates in the killing of her own family, I believe that, in her foray into the world of goth, she encountered some seriously disturbed influences. Do you not concede that there are some seriously disturbed influences in the world of goth?

I will happily visit any websites you direct me to which show me the love and sunshine and Christ-centeredness of goth which has eluded me thus far. Until then, I will have to rely on my own experiences of youth involved in goth, in order to form my opinions. for now, as a parent, I would be very worried about my child if he/she became interested in goth.

Have a lovely evening…and may the peace of Christ be with you…

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Goths have been around since my highschool days. Now, as a parent, I’d have to say that if you google “goth” there’s little I’d be thrilled with. Does this mean all goths are the same? No but I’d have to say, in general, no matter how much they frown on generalizations, the morality contained on goth sites is not what I’d want for my kids and thankfully, they agree.

I’ll google more today but the first 6 or 7 actually goth sites I googled (not wikipedia or answer.com types)for weren’t exactly in line with Catholic teaching. Maybe Goth-Catholic could point us to a site she thinks is in line with Church teachings.

I’ve always got to snicker when I hear about what free thinkers goths are but then they all choose to wear black. What if they wanted to consider themselves goth and wear magenta?

www.christiangoth.com

Like Mirdath said, there are many shades of black. A goth is not limited by the color of his/her clothing. It is not the clothes that make the goth, it’s the soul. Black is a symbol to us. Our Catholic Crucifix, so to speak. It stands for the darkness we shround ourselves in, the shadows we dwell in, the world through our eyes. We wear black because it’s meaningful to us. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t and sometimes do wear other colors, it’s just that black is the dominate forse of our expression. The mystery, the darkness, the symbolism, it draws us because it is us.

 

[Mirdath]

Like Mirdath said, there are many shades of black. A goth is not limited by the color of his/her clothing. It is not the clothes that make the goth, it’s the soul. Black is a symbol to us. Our Catholic Crucifix, so to speak. It stands for the darkness we shround ourselves in, the shadows we dwell in, the world through our eyes. We wear black because it’s meaningful to us. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t and sometimes do wear other colors, it’s just that black is the dominate forse of our expression. The mystery, the darkness, the symbolism, it draws us because it is us.

Okay, even I cracked up at that

I wear black because it looks good and I don’t have to worry about matching!

sandra: the world against me? Nah, just this part of it The rest of it’s going for me full tilt, to hear all the angst and the wailing and gnashing of teeth in the Social Justice forum.

You’ve never seen a young Christian turn goth? That was me, not too long ago. ‘Turn’ is perhaps the wrong word, it was something of a natural tendency And I’m perfectly well-adjusted! Ask anyone!

Seriously disturbed influences, yes, but you’ll find those everywhere. Isn’t crass materialism a disturbed influence that permeates our entire society? Isn’t scrupulosity a disturbed influence that has a grip on entirely too many Catholics? No place is free from the darker (ahem) side of human nature.

As to websites, I don’t have much to offer beyond Jesus Was Gother Than You, which isn’t exactly a serious site. But then there’s only so much doom and gloom and moping and doping one can take Really, I’d recommend checking out a concert or two, listening to some of the music – and before you ask, Marilyn Manson is not goth! If you want something intelligent, articulate, and devilishly funny I’d recommend Voltaire (not the dead Frenchman, the modern musician, artist, and writer… quite a guy, much like his namesake).

 

[Nevarlander]

@OP: You know, the test of if you’re truly goth is if you deny it when asked. Ask Mirdath, she was part of the old-school goth (er, notgoth) scene. I never was at that point because I was never really goth to begin with. Couldn’t do the makeup and still can’t deal with a lot of the constant rebellion.
@Sandra: There are those who just like the aesthetic of it, for what reason I don’t know. I was one of them and I think the OP is another of those. I don’t know the OP very well, though.
Again @OP: christiangoth.com makes Christian goths look bad. I read them a couple years ago. Don’t remember if it was on their site or one of their links but the way some of them get about Christians who are mainstream and vanilla (like me) was decidely snooty and obnoxious. It’s like they’re more interested in being goth than Christian. Have you considered not identifying yourself with a subculture? I think it’s limiting and regret having done it.

 

[Mirdath]

Ask Mirdath, she was part of the old-school goth (er, notgoth) scene. I never was at that point because I was never really goth to begin with.

I’m actually not quite that old – I just know my history better than some of the people who lived through it Nepenthe was around for that scene, and never left

Have you considered not identifying yourself with a subculture? I think it’s limiting and regret having done it.

I don’t identify with the subculture, the subculture identifies with me Didn’t really have a choice about that.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Whats Goth?

It’s an attempt to elongate oneself and look like a gargoyle. On most people it looks hideous. On a very few who have the money and time to do it right there is a certain attractiveness to it.

CDL

 

[edwest2]

I was heavily involved in the punk scene, and though I liked some of the music, there is no way you can call any sub-culture neutral. There were good, creative aspects to it, but there were also the parties, drugs and overdone “sensuality” that caused a few people problems.

It was fun to live in an alternate version of the real world but, for some, the dark aspects literally hurt them. For most, it was like running to the edge of a cliff, looking over the edge, screaming, and running back. (I went to a David Bowie concert dressed as David Bowie.) But for a few, it was as if they were following a script and they acted out things that they knew were wrong.

To parents: You know your children. Even among brothers, one could be a troublemaker and the other is not. One could be obsessive and easily led astray while the other is not. Sometimes it’s just a phase and mostly harmless, but other times it can lead to the problems I mentioned above.

God bless,
Ed

 

[rayne89]

It’s an attempt to elongate oneself and look like a gargoyle. On most people it looks hideous. On a very few who have the money and time to do it right there is a certain attractiveness to it.

CDL

 

[Nevarlander]

I don’t identify with the subculture, the subculture identifies with me Didn’t really have a choice about that.

That comment about subcultures was aimed at the OP, who’s still a teenager. I’m barely not a teenager, but I still feel like I’ve escaped an abyss by turning 20 and am able to look back and say “Wow, I should have done this”.

 

[bear06]

Like Mirdath said, there are many shades of black

:doh2: What? You mean dark black, darker black, light black?

It is not the clothes that make the goth, it’s the soul. Black is a symbol to us. Our Catholic Crucifix, so to speak.

Black is the Catholic Crucifix??? And the crucifix is so insufficient that you have to use the color black?

It stands for the darkness we shround ourselves in, the shadows we dwell in, the world through our eyes.

This is one of the places you lose me. As Catholics we are called to be a light to the world. We are not supposed to dwell “in the shadows” or under a bush.

We wear black because it’s meaningful to us. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t and sometimes do wear other colors, it’s just that black is the dominate forse of our expression.

It’s a color. It’s not a dominate force.

The mystery,

Yes, I’m sure that this is what attracts most to it. I’m not sure why the Catholic Church isn’t enough and that we need to develop some sub-culture that sets you apart.

Well, I’m sure I’m not going to convince you. I’m just trying to show you why some of us, as parents, are concerned by the Goth sub-culture. I’m not interested in my family being in a sub-culture. I’m interested in them being in the Church with the crucifix and not the color black as the primary focus. I want them to be a light in the world. I don’t want them to be living in shadows.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Have you considered not identifying yourself with a subculture? I think it’s limiting and regret having done it.

Been there, hear that, pretty happy with who I am.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Okay, even I cracked up at that

I wear black because it looks good and I don’t have to worry about matching!

Lol

Of course, but I thought that part was ovious! hahahaha.

 

[Mirdath]

:doh2: What? You mean dark black, darker black, light black?

Yes, actually. :dts: Can’t wait for that to get on clothes. And grey is what we like to call ‘pastel black’. And then there’s reddish blacks and purplish blacks and bluish blacks – a whole spectrum of black! :extrahappy:

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Yes, actually. :dts: Can’t wait for that to get on clothes. And grey is what we like to call ‘pastel black’. And then there’s reddish blacks and purplish blacks and bluish blacks – a whole spectrum of black! :extrahappy:

Pastel black is what color my clothes eventually turn. Hey Mirdath, do you use woollite dark on your clothes? If so, does it work?

Blue black annoys me. I tried to dye my hair that color one time, complete rip off. The dye was 5 dollars more then my normal brand, and only for a glimpse of blue when the sun hit it just right. Never doing that again.

 

[Mirdath]

Pastel black is what color my clothes eventually turn. Hey Mirdath, do you use woollite dark on your clothes? If so, does it work?

I just let 'em go, it’s not that bad. One of the advantages of being in the punk scene too I’ve never had to dye anything, but sharpies are great for small light stains.

 

[CCM08]

It’s merely natural for parents to reject when children chose pointless “subcultures” just to make a scene of themselves. It’s conformity to the idea of “teenage rebellion” to the point of stupidity. Across the pond kids are dressing up like skinheads to “stick it to the man” and be shocking. There are, of course, always a collection of losers and assorted misfits that never grow out of this.
Oh wow, you wear black and paint yourself pale white, how shocking and controversial.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

It’s merely natural for parents to reject when children chose pointless “subcultures” just to make a scene of themselves. It’s conformity to the idea of “teenage rebellion” to the point of stupidity. Across the pond kids are dressing up like skinheads to “stick it to the man” and be shocking. There are, of course, always a collection of losers and assorted misfits that never grow out of this.
Oh wow, you wear black and paint yourself pale white, how shocking and controversial.

Ooof, that hurts.

Btw, my pale skin is the product of minium sun exposure. The sun hates me and I hate the sun. And given the gapping holes in ozone layer that allow UV radiation to pentatrate through and cause skin cancer, I won’t be changing my skin color any time soon.

Mirdath, I’m gonna try the sharpy thing.

 

[rayne89]

Pastel black is what color my clothes eventually turn. Hey Mirdath, do you use woollite dark on your clothes? If so, does it work?

Blue black annoys me. I tried to dye my hair that color one time, complete rip off. The dye was 5 dollars more then my normal brand, and only for a glimpse of blue when the sun hit it just right. Never doing that again.

Can I ask you something? Feel free not to answer if it’s too personal. Are you drawn to the Goth culture because you’ve had a lot of difficulties in life and don’t feel particularly “pink and perky” if you know what I mean? As in, you relate better to things that are darker, (not in the evil sense)more somber as opposed to “happy happy joy joy” type things. I don’t know if this is making sense.

I have a theory about those that are drawn to Goth culture. When I was a teen (back in the day ) Goth was in it’s beginning stages, we didn’t even really have a name for it yet. I remember looking in my closet one day and realizing every artcle of clothing I owned was was either black or gray. Even my winter coat and my shoes. It wasn’t something I had planned on or thought of doing purposefully.

I was more of the head banger variety, listened to music like Metallica, Guns n Roses an such. My hubby (who was my boyfriend at the time) was pretty much the same but was into harder stuff like Danzig, The Mistfits, and bands like Tool etc.

We both came from difficult homes that were abusive. My theory is that kids that experience a lot of pain growing up are drawn to somber (even angry) type music and culture because that’s is what they relate to.

Just wondering if that has been your experience. (By the way I read your signature, thought was interesting cause my hubby has a black rose tattoo.)

 

[CCM08]

Ooof, that hurts.

Btw, my pale skin is the product of minium sun exposure. The sun hates me and I hate the sun. And given the gapping holes in ozone layer that allow UV radiation to pentatrate through and cause skin cancer, I won’t be changing my skin color any time soon.

Mirdath, I’m gonna try the sharpy thing.

Well when you want to stop playing dress up and join us in the adult world it’ll still be here, Ozone holes or no. I’ve got cousins that pretend to be vampires, but they’re six, what’s your excuse?