I once asked about upraised hands during the "Our Father"

[mattkubes]

Novelty???I don’t recall that at all. I don’t consider the Via Dolorosa a novelty at all–neither should you–actually, a little piece of history for you–medieval pilgrims who were well off financially would travel to the Holy Lands themselves to follow the Via Dolorosa—the poor were never able to make this pilgrimage–in addition, when the Turks closed access to the Holy Lands, nobody could make the pilgrimage—the Stations of the Cross as we know them today are an organic development over time of the faithful attempting to re-create the “sacred way”. Later on, the Franciscans developed the Stations of The Cross into what we know them as today.

And to answer your question, one novelty is too many. Apathy or indifference to these “novelties”, regardless of how minor they seem, is what has gotten us into this mess we have today. I reject all novelties, innovations, and modernists garbage that has some crept its way into our Church and The Mass.

This.

I must have missed that post. The Via Crucis is rooted in very ancient traditions.

 

[adrift]

Hound Dog, you got awfully quiet…
Whats wrong? You cant find that binding document?

What about raising hands with the priest in mass?

The Roman Missal does not allow for the faithful to raise their hands in the “orans” position (or hold hands) during Mass. Such posture is reserved for the priest.

Article 6:

§ 2. … In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.”

ICP

Recommended reading:

About That Orans Posture

 

[Elizium23]

What about raising hands with the priest in mass?

The orans posture is an ancient posture of prayer for Christians. I have never known it to be a priestly posture or a posture proper to those leading prayer.

I believe that the spirit of this law was to prevent things like having a layman elevate the host, or wash his hands in the lavabo.

Let me give you a few examples of gestures and postures that I personally make and let’s see if you feel that they are improper for the liturgy.

When my hands are empty, I join them at my chest. I have been doing this since my training as an altar server. Joined hands are not proper to the priest, but the priest does adopt this posture.

When the priest opens the tabernacle, I genuflect or kneel. The priest also genuflects, but genuflection is not proper to the priest.

During the offertory, the thurifer can incense the people in the assembly if there is no deacon. Swinging the thurible is an action done by the priest, but not proper to the priest.

 

[adrift]

The orans posture is an ancient posture of prayer for Christians. I have never known it to be a priestly posture or a posture proper to those leading prayer.

The Church does regard it as a priestly posture. Now you know.

I believe that the spirit of this law was to prevent things like having a layman elevate the host, or wash his hands in the lavabo.

It could be but it is also to make a clear distinction between the priesthood and laity.

Let me give you a few examples of gestures and postures that I personally make and let’s see if you feel that they are improper for the liturgy.

When my hands are empty, I join them at my chest. I have been doing this since my training as an altar server. Joined hands are not proper to the priest, but the priest does adopt this posture.
When the priest opens the tabernacle, I genuflect or kneel. The priest also genuflects, but genuflection is not proper to the priest.

During the offertory, the thurifer can incense the people in the assembly if there is no deacon. Swinging the thurible is an action done by the priest, but not proper to the priest.

O.K. what does it have to do that there are gestures proper to a priest only and that the congregation are not to do them?

 

[Elizium23]

The Church does regard it as a priestly posture. Now you know.

Documentation on that point, please?

 

[CesarAugustus]

What about raising hands with the priest in mass?

Excellent!

Thanks for sharing.

Blessings!

 

[thewanderer]

(Snip)
As far as a mortal sin goes, IF the time comes and I decide not to attend Mass any longer I will take my chances when my time comes.
(Snip)

You will take your chances???

You’re willing to chance losing your eternal soul by failing to attend a valid Catholic Mass every Sunday because of the actions(or inactions) of others???

In other words deliberately with full knowledge comitting a grave sin because you don’t like the way that others behave???

I will say a prayer for you that you never make this decision. I certainly would not want to be in your shoes come judgement day if you do so.

God Bless

 

[GraceDK]

What about raising hands with the priest in mass?

Thanks. Im not sure which documents these are. The first one seems to be something official, which frankly is a bit long, the other is a church bullitin which refers to another document wherein its not said people are not allowed to pray a certain way.

If you or the OP wants to prove something you have to give me a solid quote from a disciplinary or doctrinal church document which is for all faithful. Not something from a local diocese in America. I am not from America.

In Europe we have quite many people who lift their hands moderately or turn their palms upward during the Lords prayer and other songs and prayers. It does not disturb anyone. Neither is it innapropriate, I have never heard anyone who thinks its irritating to see it, before stepping into this part of Catholic Forums, which seem to be full of people who are not particularly representative for the whole Catholic Church, but whose specialty it is to want to have everything fixed in stone.

The hand gesture is a universal gesture of prayer which has been done from the beginning… (see the letter to Timothy) and its still done today.
You can go into the Kaldean Mass and I promis you you will be very irritated if you think this prayerful gesture is such, for they almost all do it.

In other Christian churches as well as in other abrahamic religions this gesture is also used during prayer… not for show (! I cant believe how condescendingly is spoken here of other Christians) Its not in order to “imitate” priests", but an inward movement which, like kneeling and lifting your face, comes from the inside.

May you all be more and more irritated until the day you drop your irritation, see with the eyes of your soul, and focus on the Lord during your prayers. Im sure you are also the kind of people who will be annoyed at the old weeping ladies, or the young fully prostrate lay people after Mass…

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Thanks. Im not sure which documents these are. The first one seems to be something official, which frankly is a bit long, the other is a church bullitin which refers to another document wherein its not said people are not allowed to pray a certain way.

Here you go. Scroll down to Article 6:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

That certain things are or were done in other rites or other times or in other circumstances is not a justfication to insert them into the Roman rite, at this time. They have to make sense. They have to help people acheive sanctification rather than emotional gratification. And they have to be within the rules.

A layman aping the priest at crucial points of the mass just looks stupid and to anyone with him in their line of site, he is distracting.

It also confuses people: is the layman (now) a co-celebrant?

 

[Elizium23]

I found this document on orans to be instructive and banishes the arguments I had about orans being a common gesture for Christians.

I am hereby convinced that those adopting the orans posture are improperly mimicking the priest - the question becomes, what in the world am I going to do about it? I have never done it personally. Should I preach to my friends about orans being improper? That seems rather petty. Should I talk to my pastor and convince him to put the kibosh on orans forever? Folks have been doing it for thirty years. I guess I will just instruct my future children that they should avoid it, and thereby raise a new generation that doesn’t indulge in silly things.

What can Rome do about it? Send twelve Swiss guards to arrest them all! Speaking of which, here is Francis Cardinal Arinze speaking about hand posture during the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

What can Rome do about it? Send twelve Swiss guards to arrest them all! Speaking of which, here is Francis Cardinal Arinze speaking about hand posture during the Lord’s Prayer.

I really like this Arinze. I think I’ll watch more videos of him. Thanks!

Alan

 

[GraceDK]

Here you go. Scroll down to Article 6:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

That certain things are or were done in other rites or other times or in other circumstances is not a justfication to insert them into the Roman rite, at this time. They have to make sense. They have to help people acheive sanctification rather than emotional gratification. And they have to be within the rules.

A layman aping the priest at crucial points of the mass just looks stupid and to anyone with him in their line of site, he is distracting.

It also confuses people: is the layman (now) a co-celebrant?

Thanks. I guess you refer to this: “Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity”.

You use this to mean that a universal gesture of prayer, known among the lay from the beginning, is not to be used among the people of God as they worship and pray. I am sorry, but I think you read into the text what you wishes.
I have been in countless normal masses where people lift their hands moderately in prayer, as they communicate with their Father in Heaven. Never have I, or any one I know, been confused about who the Priest is. Now if some lay person takes over the Gospel reading, does the homily or kissed the Bible or stands at the alter speaking during the liturgy then I would agree with you. However, my experience from my self and so many others is that your idea of gentures included in “proper to the priest celebrant” is bigger than what the Church has actually said.

You can always be irritated at things… but look, we in the Western world have bodies too. We are not stones. I’m happy I am Catholic and not part of a small sect lead by leaders who fuss when someone is actually doing a private action from his heart to worship God. The fact that you call this gesture of prayer “aping” and “emotional gratification” makes me realize there certainly is a huge different of perspective in the Church. I can only be glad your petty remarks do not represent the church.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You can always be irritated at things… but look, we in the Western world have bodies too. We are not stones. I’m happy I am Catholic and not part of a small sect lead by leaders who fuss when someone is actually doing a private action from his heart to worship God. The fact that you call this gesture of prayer “aping” and “emotional gratification” makes me realize there certainly is a huge different of perspective in the Church. I can only be glad your petty remarks do not represent the church.

I have a theory in progress about the “hard shell” of the Church, and the “soft and chewy inside.”

Since the law of sin and death were instituted, the Church has developed a hard, crusty exterior. This exterior does what it believes it must, to uphold tradition – even if it means going to war and murdering blasphemers. Even if it means crucifying an innocent Man. Jesus planted a seed of life that those with Church background built a hard shell around, so we still have the hard exterior; just that we have mercy and love on the inside. Today I’d roughly split it into the parish priests and bishops on the outside holding the boundaries, and the mystics and monastics on the inside.

Since Jesus was the first Catholic mystic, it is His job, as well as the other mystics, to look for internal peace and harmony, and to call out those on the “external” as being self-righteous hypocrites because they are doing things ostensibly to protect the Church and her laws, when that protection turns against the sheep themselves rather than actual enemies.

The external’s job, is to call the internal people “relativists” and “heretics.” The sheep must never act individually but must always wait for orders and never deviate.



This strange concoction has both preserved the spirit of the word, and the letter of it. For example, if the Church had not committed certain acts such as burning heretics, the Inquisition, etc. would she still be standing today? And if not, who today would even have access to the Good News?

Without the mysticism, the Church would have no life and no purpose. Without tradition, it would have no form and would never have lasted this long.

I admit, this model is dualistic – but I think it’s a model that helps explain why there is and possibly must continue to be adversarial posturing until the Second Coming.

So those we insist on externals such as outward behavior appearances, and those of us who generally don’t see why a seemingly innocent gesture should cause a big enough deal that we should fight over it, are parts of the same body. Maybe they are the skin and we’re the lymph node.

So I have gratitude for those who have sacrificed it all, and if I call them lawyers and pharisees that doesn’t necessarily mean I think they are bad people or are not needed – at least I realize that now. Jesus didn’t say to ignore the lawyers and pharisees, but to listen to them. Just don’t do what they do. Honestly, because of the interior peace that the Lord has given me, I wish they too could share what I have … but that’s for God to call us each when it’s time. I have to remind myself of what I preach to others; 1) do I believe the Holy Spirit is really in charge, and 2) is God’s will done on earth? Then I can calm down and accept the other half because to say the Church is in a terrible state would be to second-guess the work of the Spirit.

So let the games continue. Fighting these Catholic-against-Catholic “wars” keeps both sides alive and healthy so that when “real” enemies attack, we may be strong to face them. I support the Church financially, by serving in parish leadership, by giving her my children, and by playing music at Mass, and in other ways. Meanwhile she is allowing me to access her mysteries through the contemplative and mystical sides of her, and the writing of saints like St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross. From a mystical standpoint, the details don’t matter so I’ll conform to whatever my pastor wants from me, I try to give him. If my pastor says never to use orans position, then at least at his Masses, I won’t.

Alan

 

[GraceDK]

I have a theory in progress about the “hard shell” of the Church, and the “soft and chewy inside.”

Since the law of sin and death were instituted, the Church has developed a hard, crusty exterior. This exterior does what it believes it must, to uphold tradition – even if it means going to war and murdering blasphemers. Even if it means crucifying an innocent Man. Jesus planted a seed of life that those with Church background built a hard shell around, so we still have the hard exterior; just that we have mercy and love on the inside. Today I’d roughly split it into the parish priests and bishops on the outside holding the boundaries, and the mystics and monastics on the inside.

Thats probably true… sometimes however the prophets were killed… and lets not forget that Jesus wept over Jerusalem, because she had become all shell and no love and mercy.

Since Jesus was the first Catholic mystic, it is His job, as well as the other mystics, to look for internal peace and harmony, and to call out those on the “external” as being self-righteous hypocrites because they are doing things ostensibly to protect the Church and her laws, when that protection turns against the sheep themselves rather than actual enemies.

Well we don’t have any bishops on this thread good brother… but I do see the last sentence as true. Some people wish to preserve themselves from irritation felt when one sees someone praying like they really mean it. We cannot have that in our proper churches of course… so we project out own oppinion on church documents which are often vague enough to please both sides of its self-procliamed interpreters. The most zealous say: air plus air equals a firm rock… and I shall now beat you in the head with that rock if you don’t have the same taste as I do.

The external’s job, is to call the internal people “relativists” and “heretics.” The sheep must never act individually but must always wait for orders and never deviate.

Some sheep pretend to be the pope.

http://theboldsoul.lisataylorhuff.com/the_bold_soul/images/farside_sheep1_1.jpg

Good picture… Is that you?

This strange concoction has both preserved the spirit of the word, and the letter of it. For example, if the Church had not committed certain acts such as burning heretics, the Inquisition, etc. would she still be standing today? And if not, who today would even have access to the Good News?

Oh yes, and she would be standing stronger. Violence gives birth to more violence… today the majority of those who never look into Christianity say its because, well look at church history. Violence is a language of weakness… same when Jesus was crucified. They didn’t like his miracles and his words so they took their hollow tool, earthly power, and used it ill.

Without the mysticism, the Church would have no life and no purpose. Without tradition, it would have no form and would never have lasted this long.

I too believe in Tradition. Otherwise I were no Catholic. But violence and tyranny is not true Catholic tradition. Its a spot of shame on our history… like when Padre Pio was persecuted by the Church leaders who had little faith.

I admit, this model is dualistic – but I think it’s a model that helps explain why there is and possibly must continue to be adversarial posturing until the Second Coming.
So those we insist on externals such as outward behavior appearances, and those of us who generally don’t see why a seemingly innocent gesture should cause a big enough deal that we should fight over it, are parts of the same body. Maybe they are the skin and we’re the lymph node.

True… I am here because I find it entertaining to debate. I have studied enough church documents to smell pretty fast if there is a fire really, or if the fire is in someone’s subjective nostrils. When people get very specific about details, you can almost always be sure of the latter.

So I have gratitude for those who have sacrificed it all, and if I call them lawyers and pharisees that doesn’t necessarily mean I think they are bad people or are not needed – at least I realize that now. Jesus didn’t say to ignore the lawyers and pharisees, but to listen to them. Just don’t do what they do. Honestly, because of the interior peace that the Lord has given me, I wish they too could share what I have … but that’s for God to call us each when it’s time. I have to remind myself of what I preach to others; 1) do I believe the Holy Spirit is really in charge, and 2) is God’s will done on earth? Then I can calm down and accept the other half because to say the Church is in a terrible state would be to second-guess the work of the Spirit.

A agree with you.

So let the games continue. Fighting these Catholic-against-Catholic “wars” keeps both sides alive and healthy so that when “real” enemies attack, we may be strong to face them. I support the Church financially, by serving in parish leadership, by giving her my children, and by playing music at Mass, and in other ways. Meanwhile she is allowing me to access her mysteries through the contemplative and mystical sides of her, and the writing of saints like St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross. From a mystical standpoint, the details don’t matter so I’ll conform to whatever my pastor wants from me, I try to give him. If my pastor says never to use orans position, then at least at his Masses, I won’t.

**Would you define an orans position and why he would say such a thing? I have never heard any pastor say one mustnt use ones hands moderately during worship and prayer. If he did, I would probably ask him why, and what exactly he thought was in the gesture? **

Alan

**You are good at writing Alan. Im sorry I “toar up” your essay. You sound like a wise man. **

 

[loko]

I pray the Our Father with my palms face up and elbows close to my body. My Priest does not have a problem with it, mind you I grew up in the Pacific Islands where many women weep during the Mass, so much more emotional than I what I experience in Western countries.

 

[GraceDK]

I pray the Our Father with my palms face up and elbows close to my body. My Priest does not have a problem with it, mind you I grew up in the Pacific Islands where many women weep during the Mass, so much more emotional than I what I experience in Western countries.

I don’t have a problem with it either… heaven forbid, I might even get inspired and moved to prayer by these gestures of yours and the weeping old ladies… It happend once to me when I was in Sweden of all places, up in the cold north where people are as controlled as can be… It was the day of the Passion, the church was full to the brim… I was unable to concentrate, my soul was as dry as a stick for most of the liturgy… until a small noise was heard. I spotted a lady who walked bent through the church weeping as though in deep agony of the heart. It hit me like a door in the face… this woman is crying because of what we did to Jesus. At that moment my spirit came alive… I suppose maybe one day in heaven I can tell her: thank you sister, that you preached the Gospel to me that day.

Maybe I should go to the Pacific Islands. Sounds like a nice and warm place…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Good picture… Is that you?

How could you tell? Was it my new perm?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Oh yes, and she would be standing stronger. Violence gives birth to more violence… today the majority of those who never look into Christianity say its because, well look at church history. Violence is a language of weakness… same when Jesus was crucified. They didn’t like his miracles and his words so they took their hollow tool, earthly power, and used it ill.

Shhh… I’m trying to create a scenario where everything the Church has done is wonderful and proper, and necessary, and all part of The Plan. Please don’t let it get around that preservation of the Church doesn’t necessarily require sinful acts or you’ll upset the balance of the universe and guilt and shame will prevail.

I too believe in Tradition. Otherwise I were no Catholic. But violence and tyranny is not true Catholic tradition. Its a spot of shame on our history… like when Padre Pio was persecuted by the Church leaders who had little faith.

Church leaders who had little faith? Is that redundant? (j/k )

Would you define an orans position and why he would say such a thing? I have never heard any pastor say one mustnt use ones hands moderately during worship and prayer. If he did, I would probably ask him why, and what exactly he thought was in the gesture?

No, my pastor has real problems to worry about. I was just sayin’ – I’m obedient to the pastor so if he says we need to face Mecca and kneel for 10 seconds during the consecration, then at his Masses I’m going to be doing it. Let the Church Militants tell him he’s wrong.

Alan

 

[loko]

I don’t have a problem with it either… heaven forbid, I might even get inspired and moved to prayer by these gestures of yours and the weeping old ladies… It happend once to me when I was in Sweden of all places, up in the cold north where people are as controlled as can be… It was the day of the Passion, the church was full to the brim… I was unable to concentrate, my soul was as dry as a stick for most of the liturgy… until a small noise was heard. I spotted a lady who walked bent through the church weeping as though in deep agony of the heart. It hit me like a door in the face… this woman is crying because of what we did to Jesus. At that moment my spirit came alive… I suppose maybe one day in heaven I can tell her: thank you sister, that you preached the Gospel to me that day.**

Maybe I should go to the Pacific Islands. Sounds like a nice and warm place**…

You should it’s always warm and sunny and endless white beaches. I love going back on holidays, I canoe out and fish for hours. I love the quiet and peace.

The South Pacific where I’m from is like Hawaii without the high-rises.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[adrift]

Thanks. Im not sure which documents these are. The first one seems to be something official, which frankly is a bit long, the other is a church bullitin which refers to another document wherein its not said people are not allowed to pray a certain way.

It came from the Roman Missal.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

This.

I must have missed that post. The Via Crucis is rooted in very ancient traditions.

As is the orans posture.

Stations of the Cross are novelties inside of Catholic Churches. They have not been in all Catholic Churches since the Church began. They were introduced by the Franciscans (and only allowed in Franscisan churches), and then later added to all Churches.