I once asked about upraised hands during the "Our Father"

[Splagchnizomai]

Novelty???I don’t recall that at all. I don’t consider the Via Dolorosa a novelty at all–neither should you–actually, a little piece of history for you–medieval pilgrims who were well off financially would travel to the Holy Lands themselves to follow the Via Dolorosa—the poor were never able to make this pilgrimage–in addition, when the Turks closed access to the Holy Lands, nobody could make the pilgrimage—the Stations of the Cross as we know them today are an organic development over time of the faithful attempting to re-create the “sacred way”. Later on, the Franciscans developed the Stations of The Cross into what we know them as today.

Not the Via Dolorosa, but the devotional expression of it erected in churches, aka The Stations of the Cross. They have not always been inside Catholic Churches, though now it is difficult to find one without them. Again, the Via Dolorosa marks a specific geographic place while the Stations mark a devotional practice usually erected within a Church’s nave.

While your history I generally agree with, you still need to read a bit more deeply into it and you’ll understand that the Stations have not been common in all Catholic Churches until just a few centuries ago (in the 18th century). Yours is a common enough mistake to confuse the Via Dolorosa with the Stations.

And to answer your question, one novelty is too many. Apathy or indifference to these “novelties”, regardless of how minor they seem, is what has gotten us into this mess we have today. I reject all novelties, innovations, and modernists garbage that has some crept its way into our Church and The Mass.

If you reject one novelty, then you must reject polyphony – for it was innovation against monophonic chant (Gregorian chant). You must also reject the piano, a novelty when compared to the organ. Your list of novelites will be quite long, don’t you think?

 

[GraceDK]

You should it’s always warm and sunny and endless white beaches. I love going back on holidays, I canoe out and fish for hours. I love the quiet and peace.

The South Pacific where I’m from is like Hawaii without the high-rises.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5_ZBW_MCq...Ax8/yzk5HyXcG6Y/s1600/VANIMOBEACH2-795414.JPG

NICE… I’ll look into it… I would like to go to that beach, and be able to lift my hands at mass without anyone dying of irritation …

 

[BertBlyleven]

A few thoughts:

The lifting of hands in prayer has traditionally been a private jesture, done in your prayer corner and generally not among others. It has never been done at the cue of music, a minister, etc. Why is this? It is distracting to others and to the liturgy. The same applies for prostrations (with a few exceptions). The revival of lifting holy hands among protestants (and now Catholics) is a return to a practice dead in the west, but is far from the spirit of the practice which still exists in the east.

Though [allegedly] only the priest is supposed to say the Lord’s Prayer in the orans position, I would argue the practice of the laity doing is directly in line with the spirit of VII and the Novus Ordo Mass. In Mass, even to the 5th century, the Lord’s Prayer had been said by the priest alone, later codified in the orans position (which is more subdued than the position of most Masses in the Ordinary Form). Secondly, modern theologians and writers of the Novus Ordo emphasized the “priesthood of all believers,” which was more along the lines of inventing a ministerial priesthood of laity. So, since we are all to some extent priests, and the Lord’s Prayer in Mass is a priestly prayer, and we now all say the Lord’s Prayer, we should all extend our hands like the priest. The additional holding of hands fits with the assembly-theology of the OF. Many unique duties/prayers of the priest in the EF have been suppressed in the OF anyway, I’m not sure why this one is such a huge deal among conservative Catholics.

 

[thewanderer]

A few thoughts:

The lifting of hands in prayer has traditionally been a private jesture, done in your prayer corner and generally not among others. It has never been done at the cue of music, a minister, etc. Why is this? It is distracting to others and to the liturgy. The same applies for prostrations (with a few exceptions). The revival of lifting holy hands among protestants (and now Catholics) is a return to a practice dead in the west, but is far from the spirit of the practice which still exists in the east.

Though [allegedly] only the priest is supposed to say the Lord’s Prayer in the orans position, I would argue the practice of the laity doing is directly in line with the spirit of VII and the Novus Ordo Mass. In Mass, even to the 5th century, the Lord’s Prayer had been said by the priest alone, later codified in the orans position (which is more subdued than the position of most Masses in the Ordinary Form). Secondly, modern theologians and writers of the Novus Ordo emphasized the “priesthood of all believers,” which was more along the lines of inventing a ministerial priesthood of laity. So, since we are all to some extent priests, and the Lord’s Prayer in Mass is a priestly prayer, and we now all say the Lord’s Prayer, we should all extend our hands like the priest. The additional holding of hands fits with the assembly-theology of the OF. Many unique duties/prayers of the priest in the EF have been suppressed in the OF anyway, I’m not sure why this one is such a huge deal among conservative Catholics.

I think the reason people make such a big deal about it is that they are afraid it will only help confuse the role of the laity and the priest. While it is true that there is a “priesthood of all believers” it is not the same as the priesthood of the actual priest. I think that especially since there is already so much in the OF that emphasizes the priesthood of the laity it is important to keep what distinctions are still in place between the priest and the laity so that the real distinction of the roles is not lost.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I think the reason people make such a big deal about it is that they are afraid it will only help confuse the role of the laity and the priest. While it is true that there is a “priesthood of all believers” it is not the same as the priesthood of the actual priest. I think that especially since there is already so much in the OF that emphasizes the priesthood of the laity it is important to keep what distinctions are still in place between the priest and the laity so that the real distinction of the roles is not lost.

I agree with you. I think that is a very good answer. I don’t think sometimes people realize it can cause confusion in the priest and the laities role.

 

[clem456]

IF I wanted to go to the pentecostal church I would. I am not into speaking in tongues or snake handling or the constant preaching of end time prophesies.

As a Catholic from birth I have seen more “evangelical” or “pentecostal” things slowly showing up in Mass.

IF the Mass starts to become too “protestant” then I will cease to attend.

Are you a convert? That could explain your reply.

I occasionally get upset at attitudes and practices I see around me, at Mass and otherwise. Over the years I have discovered it is spiritually profitable to stop…and discern what it is that I am upset about, why I am upset, and whether I should be upset. And then to discern whether the issue is outside my scope of authority and concern, and whether it is profitable for anyone to pursue the issue. If not, then why am I upset? The answer usually is, willfull pride on my part. It seems to me that praying with hands raised, is not something to get upset about, even though you may see it as false piety or self aggrandizement.

 

[thewanderer]

I occasionally get upset at attitudes and practices I see around me, at Mass and otherwise. Over the years I have discovered it is spiritually profitable to stop…and discern what it is that I am upset about, why I am upset, and whether I should be upset. And then to discern whether the issue is outside my scope of authority and concern, and whether it is profitable for anyone to pursue the issue. If not, then why am I upset? The answer usually is, willfull pride on my part. It seems to me that praying with hands raised, is not something to get upset about, even though you may see it as false piety or self aggrandizement.

Just to add to this, I heard a wonderful homily recently in which the priest brought up the fact that every single person’s faith is going to be tested. It must be tested so that it can be purified and proven true. And our faith will be tested in one of two ways, martyrdom or scandal. Either we will be forced with the decision of our faith or our life, or we will face scandal and confusion and be faced with the trial of making sure to hold firm to our faith despite it all. This means that we continue to follow all the teachings of the Church, including going to Mass every Sunday unless one has a dispensation, no matter what. We might be discouraged because of the sexual abuse scandals within the Church, we might be confused because of the many differing opinions spouted by so called Catholics, we may dislike many actions that go on in our church, holding hands, clapping, dancing, but we must realize that when we are faced with such things it is the test of our faith. We must recognize it as a test and so make the decision to hold firm to our faith and follow the teachings of the Church no matter what we see around us, because this is the path to our salvation.

 

[GraceDK]

A few thoughts:

The lifting of hands in prayer has traditionally been a private jesture, done in your prayer corner and generally not among others. It has never been done at the cue of music, a minister, etc. Why is this? .

Hm, I don’t know what you mean by a “cue of music or a minister”… everyone knowing that the body gestures that Catholics do at church are the most controlled an on-cue of all christians. You stand, sing, kneel, answer, and bow your head and make the cross precisely when and where its prescribed, whether you are conscious or not, during mass.

You say the lifting of hands has always been private jesture, although I have proven by means of the Bible that the early Christians did this, and I have shown by videos from Africa, and through my own experience, that people have done and continue to do this throughout history.
Some people don’t like the culture of old and they dont like certain present cultures… Especially the Catholics that call themselves traditional… But we live in a globalised world, and you cannot control the African or the Middle Eastern or the other people that come into your mass, and who unintentionally irritate your ego.

As of yet no single quote has been given on this thread by a binding Church document where its written that a lay person may not use his hands moderately in prayer during Mass… there has been a lot of fuss, but no clear evidence. Only interpretations made subjectively by - seeminly - anti-charismatic Catholics.

I once took a young non-believer with me to a Catholic Mass. You know what he said when he came out? He said: “You all looked like robots in there. Can you please take me to a church where people don’t look like robots?”

Now THAT irritated me… and it wasn’t him, but the robotic stone faced Catholics that irritated me… Normally I don’t get irritated through. I suppose that the stone-faces had good intentions and true worship in their hearts. Maybe you guys can also learn to think better of your brothers and sisters in Christ, instead of calling them “apers of priests”, and “self-gratifying”, “emotion seeking” abusers of the Mass.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I once took a young non-believer with me to a Catholic Mass. You know what he said when he came out? He said: “You all looked like robots in there. Can you please take me to a church where people don’t look like robots?”.

I think that young non-believer needed someone to explain to him why we all look like robots and what liturgical worship is and what makes the Catholic church one and explain the rubrics. I hope you explained to him what the mass was about and that it isn’t about us and what we can and feel like doing at mass but it is about Jesus and the sacrifice he made for us at Calvary and how it is re-presented at mass and why we do what we do, instead of taking him where he could find people who don’t look like robots so he can enjoy worship to his liking.

Now THAT irritated me… and it wasn’t him, but the robotic stone faced Catholics that irritated me… Normally I don’t get irritated through. I suppose that the stone-faces had good intentions and true worship in their hearts. Maybe you guys can also learn to think better of your brothers and sisters in Christ, instead of calling them “apers of priests”, and “self-gratifying”, “emotion seeking” abusers of the Mass.

It seems to me that charity is a two way street on this thread as I pointed out in an earlier post on this thread. I don’t believe anyone is trying to be insulting of anyone but are trying to be the best Catholics they can and get the most out of mass.

You said in this post “moderately” raise hands. That is the thing. It isn’t always moderately and then that is when it bothers people as I said in an earlier post about the dad that has his kids giggling raising hands while others were praying. People get confused. People coming into the church don’t understand what is going on and we need to be witnesses to them of what mass is.

Blessings.

 

[Irishgal49]

Do what I did…start going exclusively to the Traditional Latin Mass—absolutely nothing protestant/pentecostal about that–You will love it

I am going to start going to the Latin Mass, I’m sick of all this “poetic license” going on. The priest at the church I attended this past weekend said, “Now let’s all join hands and pray the Lord’s Prayer”. I shook my head no and kept my hands folded. Then he had the children “gather around the altar” --one had his elbows on it with his head in his hands, while the prayer of consecration was prayed. As for “Pentecostal stuff” I say keep THAT to yourself.

Lorrie

 

[Rich_C]

I think the reason people make such a big deal about it is that they are afraid it will only help confuse the role of the laity and the priest. While it is true that there is a “priesthood of all believers” it is not the same as the priesthood of the actual priest. I think that especially since there is already so much in the OF that emphasizes the priesthood of the laity it is important to keep what distinctions are still in place between the priest and the laity so that the real distinction of the roles is not lost.

I think this is the only good reason to oppose the popular use of the orans position during the Pater Noster, and for the sake of many of our brothers and sisters whose only catechism is the Mass, I think it is worth opposing it. But as a layman, the only opposition that’s really appropriate for me is to not do it, and kindly explain why if I’m asked about it.

 

[Rich_C]

I am going to start going to the Latin Mass, I’m sick of all this “poetic license” going on. The priest at the church I attended this past weekend said, “Now let’s all join hands and pray the Lord’s Prayer”. I shook my head no and kept my hands folded. Then he had the children “gather around the altar” --one had his elbows on it with his head in his hands, while the prayer of consecration was prayed. As for “Pentecostal stuff” I say keep THAT to yourself.

Lorrie

I never really decided to start assisting at the traditional Latin Mass all the time, it just happened; I got hooked. I have no doubt it will be as much of a blessing to you as it has been to me, but don’t allow bitter feelings towards irreverent OF Masses to cloud your heart. I feel so much joy and gratitude for the fortress of faith I’ve found in the EF Mass and when I’m tempted to disdain what I left I remember that I’ve been given a gift, not become “better” than anyone. God bless you on your way.

 

[GraceDK]

I think that young non-believer needed someone to explain to him why we all look like robots and what liturgical worship is and what makes the Catholic church one and explain the rubrics. I hope you explained to him what the mass was about and that it isn’t about us and what we can and feel like doing at mass but it is about Jesus and the sacrifice he made for us at Calvary and how it is re-presented at mass and why we do what we do, instead of taking him where he could find people who don’t look like robots so he can enjoy worship to his liking.

**Well, actually not all Catholics look like robots… but in that particualar parish they did. We should never look like robots… our eyes, expressions and gestures made with sincerety and heart will never look robotic. **

It seems to me that charity is a two way street on this thread as I pointed out in an earlier post on this thread. I don’t believe anyone is trying to be insulting of anyone but are trying to be the best Catholics they can and get the most out of mass.

Well, saying that people “ape the priest”, make a “spectacle of themselves”, or “look like protestants” is pretty hard language… to just take a few examples. Is that the best Catholics they can be? I don’t think so. I think they expose their pettiness here where we cannot see their faces. They assume that the man who lifts his hands do so with bad motives, like getting an emotional high or undermining the role of the priest… all these accusations show more about the superficiality of those who write them, than about those who, unknowing cause this repulsion and irritation while they worship the Lord.

You said in this post “moderately” raise hands. That is the thing. It isn’t always moderately and then that is when it bothers people as I said in an earlier post about the dad that has his kids giggling raising hands while others were praying. People get confused. People coming into the church don’t understand what is going on and we need to be witnesses to them of what mass is.

I have seen many raised hands in masses, but never immoderately. Never even higher than the shoulders. People on this thread take offence even if a the hands of a layman are turned upward as receiving gesture as he prays or wishes peace to the priest. These accusations have nothing to do with pentecostal-like movements in our church, but everything to do with petty feelings in people who pretend to know whats happening in another man’s soul. Their eyes are dark, so they see darkness, Thats how I understand these posts. They cannot accept that not everyone is exactly like them when it comes to taste.

Blessings.

Blessings to you too.

 

[GraceDK]

I am going to start going to the Latin Mass, I’m sick of all this “poetic license” going on. The priest at the church I attended this past weekend said, “Now let’s all join hands and pray the Lord’s Prayer”.
Lorrie

Good idea Lorrie. Since you cannot keep your peace in a mass where people hold hands, you indeed should leave and join another mass where people share your sentiment.
I myself like holding hands with others. It gives a tangible feeling of a unity that we desperately need… what is interesting is that sharing Holy Communion is a much more intimate act with the Body of Christ - each other - than holding the hand of your neighbour during a prayer.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

I occasionally get upset at attitudes and practices I see around me, at Mass and otherwise. Over the years I have discovered it is spiritually profitable to stop…and discern what it is that I am upset about, why I am upset, and whether I should be upset. And then to discern whether the issue is outside my scope of authority and concern, and whether it is profitable for anyone to pursue the issue. If not, then why am I upset? The answer usually is, willfull pride on my part. It seems to me that praying with hands raised, is not something to get upset about, even though you may see it as false piety or self aggrandizement.

If your excellent advice were followed, CAF would have a hard time existing!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If your excellent advice were followed, CAF would have a hard time existing!

Maybe we could just redeploy our resources to actually have fellowship and unitive discussion?

Nahhh…

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Well, actually not all Catholics look like robots… but in that particualar parish they did. We should never look like robots… our eyes, expressions and gestures made with sincerety and heart will never look robotic.

Perhaps. To an outsider, especially a nonbeliever our actions are going to look strange. I have heard similar comments from unbelievers after taking them to mass. We all move the same way, say the same things and act the same at mass but then isn’t that one of the things that makes us one. Our unity in Christ. There will always be people who just go through the motions but we can’t judge someone’s heart based on their facial expression or movements or what their “away from mass” personality might be like based on how they pray at mass. I am very serious when I am at mass and I expect the same from my family. We are there to pray and show reverence to what is going on so to an outsider we may look pretty stone like. We are in prayer and I have some pretty serious things to be praying about. I, also want my family to respect others around them to know that they too have come to pray and not be a distraction to them.

Well, saying that people “ape the priest”, make a “spectacle of themselves”, or “look like protestants” is pretty hard language… to just take a few examples. Is that the best Catholics they can be? I don’t think so. I think they expose their pettiness here where we cannot see their faces. They assume that the man who lifts his hands do so with bad motives, like getting an emotional high or undermining the role of the priest… all these accusations show more about the superficiality of those who write them, than about those who, unknowing cause this repulsion and irritation while they worship the Lord.

I was talking more of calling traditionalists legalistic who care about lesser things rather than essential or grumpy or a bitter person who would die of shock, petty and superficial.
Most traditionals have seen a lot of the things you talk about at mass and that is why they are traditionalists. To many Catholics these things that seem lesser are extremely important to them.

I have seen many raised hands in masses, but never immoderately. Never even higher than the shoulders. People on this thread take offence even if a the hands of a layman are turned upward as receiving gesture as he prays or wishes peace to the priest. These accusations have nothing to do with pentecostal-like movements in our church, but everything to do with petty feelings in people who pretend to know whats happening in another man’s soul. Their eyes are dark, so they see darkness, Thats how I understand these posts. They cannot accept that not everyone is exactly like them when it comes to taste.

Blessings to you too.

I have seen things happen during the Our Father such as people insisting one hold hands after they said no or raise their hands and make like a victory cheer and it can be disturbing to others. It is rare but it does happen.

Personally, I have come to the point where if people want to raise their hands in such a fashion it doesn’t bother me, I close my eyes and pray but I do feel that is a gesture that should be only for the priest.

We can’t know what is in the man’s soul who posted this thread either. Only God knows what is in ones heart.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

You say the lifting of hands has always been private jesture, although I have proven by means of the Bible that the early Christians did this, and I have shown by videos from Africa, and through my own experience, that people have done and continue to do this throughout history.

This is not an excuse for it do be done in a Roman Catholic diocesan church in the 21st century.

It’s truly weird that people think they can add their own touches to a sacred rite. I guess after the bombshell of the introduction of the Novus Ordo, Catholics now see innovation and alteration as normal.

As of yet no single quote has been given on this thread by a binding Church document where its written that a lay person may not use his hands moderately in prayer during Mass… there has been a lot of fuss, but no clear evidence. Only interpretations made subjectively by - seeminly - anti-charismatic Catholics.

This is the excuse: *“If it’s not forbidden, I can do it.” *

The Church assumes Her children have a some idea of what Her rites should look like. For example, she also doesn’t forbid screaming, stomping and juggling at Mass: She assumes that we will not do these things and if She had to expressly forbid all the things one shouldn’t do at Mass, it would be a huge list.

 

[Hound_Dog]

Hound Dog, you got awfully quiet…
Whats wrong? You cant find that binding document?

I posted from a Parish website what the Bishops say. If you care to find out more then you do the research.

Your attack on me shows your true character.

It is always the converts that try to bring in things from their previous denominations. IF it was so good before you became a Catholic and want your protestant ways, why did you become a Catholic?

 

[Hound_Dog]

You will take your chances???

You’re willing to chance losing your eternal soul by failing to attend a valid Catholic Mass every Sunday because of the actions(or inactions) of others???

In other words deliberately with full knowledge comitting a grave sin because you don’t like the way that others behave???

I will say a prayer for you that you never make this decision. I certainly would not want to be in your shoes come judgement day if you do so.

God Bless

Thank you for your concern but you are not the one to decide the fate of my eternal soul. I will let the Supreme Judge decide my fate when the time comes.