I really am trying to Return to Catholicism BUT!

[Huguenot]

intellectual honesty, where is the** intellectual** honesty?

In other words, the fact remains, as most protestants seem to think that the Bible was written as Jesus walked the earth, the Gospels and the epistles, along with Revelation, are a compilation of the Good News and what it means to be a Christian as understood in a Catholic perspective; as it was written by Catholics, and the Canon of Sacred Scripture was approved by Catholics, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I never questioned your honesty. I question the overall intellectual honesty in these fora.

As to confession, I agree that any man who examines his conscience and recognizes his sin is indeed sorry for the same. Sadness definitley fills the soul over ones failure to obey God. However, does the protestant continue to disobey God and remain in jeopardy, by not availing himself of the grace{James 4:6-7} necessary to sin no more?

I think I am as “intellectually honest” as any serious Catholic, and I think that Protestants who really repent of their sins are also given, by God, the grace to sin no more : there is a “walk” with God, the general direction of our lives is changed when we become believers, I see the difference since I’ve not been brought up in a Christian background, so there is a clear “before” ( conversion ) and a clear “after” …

 

[Huguenot]

Huguenot;3614128:

Whether you confess directly to God or through a priest, I agree with you that the intention of repentance is the most important thing ; on French forums some atheists tell the Catholics ( usually they don’t think about attacking Protestants, we form such a small minority that we are “invisible”, although on some atheist sites there is also an “anti-Protestant” section … but apparently they don’t use it … even if maybe they read it … ) that it is easy : you sin and you confess, and you are forgiven, so the fact of knowing it allows you to sin and confess, to sin and confess, endlessly …
well the same could be said about Protestants too ( but as I have said we are not on the atheists’ “radar” ) so I answer that only Catholics who don’t take their religion seriously would do that … and then I add that if they don’t take their religion seriously probably they wouldn’t even bother to go to confession, so … what they ( the atheists ) say must happen extremely rarely …

The major difference is in the psychology of Confession. A practicing Catholic Christian needs to be grounded in the reality of his or her sin to the extent that he or she can consciously verbalize it. This is not the same as asking God for a ‘blanket’ forgiveness of one’s sin(s), but to recognize what the sin is, confess it and be forgiven. The mind has the temptation of wanting to “blanket over” the offense (“God, I’ve sinned, please forgive me”), or a person convincing him/herself that what the offense is isn’t so bad (“Yes, I did this, but I’m basically a good person, and that is what God looks at”, etc.) and thus not necessary to forgive. There is a vast difference in the dynamic here between confessing directly to God with the temptation of not confessing fully, and going through a priest, who is there to lead one in understanding the offense and encouraging a thorough confession.

when I confess my sins to God I also “consciously verbalize” them, so I don’t see any psychological difference, and I don’t “blanket over the offense”…
As for thinking we’re basically good persons, that’s not what Protestant theology teaches : some Catholics think that in spite of the original sin , there is still something good in man ; for Protestants, we’ve inherited a TOTALLY CORRUPT nature from our parents ( “total depravity” ), we are BORN ESTRANGED FROM GOD…
so I don’t see how we could think we’re not so bad after all …
For us man not only cannot turn to God and believe in Christ without an action of the Holy Ghost in his heart, he can’t even WISH to do so …
I was brought up an atheist, my conversion is TOTALLY God’s work, I am fully conscious of that …

 

[Huguenot]

Nevertheless, many posts are misinterpreted, because the written word can confuse due to lack of clarity or misperception of the reader. I have certainly not accused you of any such thing!

Christ’s peace be with you.

Well I’m glad to know it …

 

[peary]

peary;3614413:

when I confess my sins to God I also “consciously verbalize” them, so I don’t see any psychological difference, and I don’t “blanket over the offense”…
As for thinking we’re basically good persons, that’s not what Protestant theology teaches : some Catholics think that in spite of the original sin , there is still something good in man ; for Protestants, we’ve inherited a TOTALLY CORRUPT nature from our parents ( “total depravity” ), we are BORN ESTRANGED FROM GOD…
so I don’t see how we could think we’re not so bad after all …
For us man not only cannot turn to God and believe in Christ without an action of the Holy Ghost in his heart, he can’t even WISH to do so …
I was brought up an atheist, my conversion is TOTALLY God’s work, I am fully conscious of that …

And the reason Catholic theology has always taught that there is “still something good in man” is because God so loved the world that He sent His only beloved Son, not to condemn the world but to save it. Also, God made humankind in His image: immortal. There is quite a difference between Calvinism and Catholicism in its approach to God’s love. Calvin wasn’t interested in God’s love and mercy because Calvin had no love and mercy within himself.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Just remember: “Go and sin no more”.

That part is important.

 

[po18guy]

I think I am as “intellectually honest” as any serious Catholic, and I think that Protestants who really repent of their sins are also given, by God, the grace to sin no more : there is a “walk” with God, the general direction of our lives is changed when we become believers, I see the difference since I’ve not been brought up in a Christian background, so there is a clear “before” ( conversion ) and a clear “after” …

And, also please realize that your journey to God is just that: a journey. We are in a process of conversion. You are not a finished product yet. And so, the Lord will reveal, in His perfect time, additional things to you.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Hesychios]

And, also please realize that your journey to God is just that: a journey. We are in a process of conversion. You are not a finished product yet. And so, the Lord will reveal, in His perfect time, additional things to you.

Christ’s peace.

There is no such thing as a finished product on one’s journey to God.

Pax et Bonum,
Michael

 

[HashemEchad]

What I find odd is, the things many former Catholics dislike about Catholicism, are the things I like or admire about it (the stance on abortion and artificial birth control; confession; the Traditional Latin Mass, etc)

 

[MementoMori3283]

What I find odd is, the things many former Catholics dislike about Catholicism, are the things I like or admire about it (the stance on abortion and artificial birth control; confession; the Traditional Latin Mass, etc)

that’s because the Truth can never be far from God.

God can not lie, God can not deceive.

 

[po18guy]

There is no such thing as a finished product on one’s journey to God.

Pax et Bonum,
Michael

Pardon me! I worded it poorly. Not to imply such a thing!

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

What I find odd is, the things many former Catholics dislike about Catholicism, are the things I like or admire about it (the stance on abortion and artificial birth control; confession; the Traditional Latin Mass, etc)

A pure faith requires humility and obedience. Our culture teaches individualism and dislikes obedience. Christ dislikes our culture and rewards obedience. Interesting juxtaposition there!

Peace be to you.

 

[qui_est_ce]

What I find odd is, the things many former Catholics dislike about Catholicism, are the things I like or admire about it (the stance on abortion and artificial birth control; confession; the Traditional Latin Mass, etc)

You should read Rosalind Moss. As a young Jewish girl, it bothered her when nuns shed their habits and donned lay clothing. She didn’t know why. She is now starting an order of nuns who will wear the full habit, which she has designed and described on radio. They will be “waliking nuns.” Walking and Being the Presence of God.
creativeminorityreport.com/2008/02/sister-rosalind-moss.html

Mother of God, SHE IS MOVING TO ST. LOUIS! Learn something new everyday.

This just isn’t fair to the rest of Catholics. We have Archbishop Burke, and now Rosalind Moss! :extrahappy:

 

[po18guy]

You should read Rosalind Moss. As a young Jewish girl, it bothered her when nuns shed their habits and donned lay clothing. She didn’t know why. She is now starting an order of nuns who will wear the full habit, which she has designed and described on radio. They will be “waliking nuns.” Walking and Being the Presence of God.
creativeminorityreport.com/2008/02/sister-rosalind-moss.html

Mother of God, SHE IS MOVING TO ST. LOUIS! Learn something new everyday.

This just isn’t fair to the rest of Catholics. We have Archbishop Burke, and now Rosalind Moss! :extrahappy:

Yes, Rosalind and David Moskowitz are now shunned by their families, for whom they ceaselessly pray. No price too high. What love of Christ they possess! Yes, Christine, you are blessed!

On a personal note, have you ever thought about…

Christ’s peace.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

Im in a dilema .After months of attending Protestant service I returned and went to confession .I felt so graet I could’nt help but smile and feel myself praising the lord.Then as I stepped out of the confessional an older woman snarled at me and said I took to long in the confession and I made her late for her appointmaent with her hairdresser .It was then I became angry and the following day returned to the Protestant Church ,where I felt the Holy Spirit .It’s the attitude of these old “coots” that profess to be Catholics but have no sympathy for fellow sinners please tell me me what to do. When I leave Sunday Service I feel great when I leave Mass I dont .The people at Mass can’t wait to get out of there me I’m not pleased with such un christian acts .Sorry but you must convince me otherwise …Did not Jesus say " By their fruits you shall know them"…Peace
“So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

Offer it Up!

 

[Huguenot]

Huguenot;3618521:

And the reason Catholic theology has always taught that there is “still something good in man” is because God so loved the world that He sent His only beloved Son, not to condemn the world but to save it. Also, God made humankind in His image: immortal. There is quite a difference between Calvinism and Catholicism in its approach to God’s love. Calvin wasn’t interested in God’s love and mercy because Calvin had no love and mercy within himself.

Well I also believe that God sent His only beloved Son to SAVE the world, not to condemn it : you can read it in John 3 / 16-17 ( and maybe the following verses ) ; it 's precisely what showed me God’s love, how great it was : He wanted to save mankind ALTHOUGH there is nothing good in man , not because there is ( supposed to be ) something good in us …
You mention Calvin, I suppose you are referring to his doctrine of predestination, but this doctrine was taught by Augustine ( Saint Augustine ) loooooooooooooooooooong before Calvin was born …

 

[Huguenot]

And, also please realize that your journey to God is just that: a journey. We are in a process of conversion. You are not a finished product yet. And so, the Lord will reveal, in His perfect time, additional things to you.

Christ’s peace.

I don’t forget it : I said that after the conversion there is a “walk with God”, I suppose I just used a different word but the conception is the same ( a journey ) …

 

[peary]

peary;3618812:

Well I also believe that God sent His only beloved Son to SAVE the world, not to condemn it : you can read it in John 3 / 16-17 ( and maybe the following verses ) ; it 's precisely what showed me God’s love, how great it was : He wanted to save mankind ALTHOUGH there is nothing good in man , not because there is ( supposed to be ) something good in us …
You mention Calvin, I suppose you are referring to his doctrine of predestination, but this doctrine was taught by Augustine ( Saint Augustine ) loooooooooooooooooooong before Calvin was born …

If you read your Bible, then you will realize the fallacy of your theology. Nothing good in humankind? If God didn’t think there was anything good in humankind, He wouldn’t have sent Jesus to redeem us. Sometimes one’s theology is impacted by personal disposition.

Augustine was talking about the predestination of the elect through grace into the Catholic Church, which is Christ’s Mystical Body.

 

[GraceDK]

true and that is not good enough for me …I feel so much more at home with Protestant brethren and it saddens me that other Romans are not as congenial I wish they were but not so.Listen we are all sinners but the Lord and hHoly Spirit work in us and others It looks as though the Holy Spirit is working harder at some churches than others but I pray that many older Catholics stop their nonsense. It really hurt me and has deterred me once again in my return to the Church.

Brother, I hear you perfectly.
I have the same sad experience of feeling at HOME with pentecostal brethren in their church but feeling estanged and sad in my Catholic parish… I dont wanna feel this way… but whenever I voice it to Catholics they either get offended or they look sad in their eyes and say: yeah, I feel the same way… something is not right.

One thing I will disagree on with one of the other posters is when you say that the devil trying to keep this brother from joining the Body of Christ… Thats not true. He is already in the Body.

I maybe should stop here… I have experienced things in the Catholic church that I would never put up with elsewhere, but because of the claim of being the one true Church and the only one with valid Sacraments… how can I leave? I know many of you will be disturbed by this post, and I am sorry it has come to this for me, too… But sometimes I am wondering about those millions of people in South America that leave the Catholic Church to become pentecostals… to say they are just poorly catecised is for me a very cheap answer.

I beleive they leave because they are not being fed. You may say: “but they have the Eucharist.” Yes they do. But it is written: the one who eats the Body and Drinks the Blood without regarding the Body is eating and drinking to his own judgement… Something like that. And I take it to mean, its not only about me and confession and my own little prayer and then receiving the Lord worthily in my own little prayer bubble… NO, its about the Body… the Church… Where there is no love and fellowship, do we there eat worthily? Where there is no respect for our priests or pastors, where we have divisions among us and feel like stangers that dont know each other’s names, do we eat worthily…?? Where there is no zeal for truth and no evangelisation… do we eat worthily?

I have posted this in some other threads too, but where is the zeal, where is the love, where is the enthusiasm, where is the life-altering preaching and where are the wonders and miracles that were all signs among the first Christians?

When all that is said I am ever so tired of being scolded for my thoughts and being told that I obviously don’t understand the Eucharistic miracle since I am complaining… I have really had some heavy times where I wanted to leave but I also wanted Jesus in the Eucharist and Confession… and I am still here. But gosh… I don’t think people are meant to feel this way… and I dont think its unconditionally a sign of humility if we keep quiet about the sicknesses of the Church.
…:crying:

 

[Hesychios]

Brother, I hear you perfectly.
I have the same sad experience of feeling at HOME with pentecostal brethren in their church but feeling estanged and sad in my Catholic parish… I dont wanna feel this way… but whenever I voice it to Catholics they either get offended or they look sad in their eyes and say: yeah, I feel the same way… something is not right.

I addressed this from my perspective earlier on this thread.

I maybe should stop here… I have experienced things in the Catholic church that I would never put up with elsewhere, but because of the claim of being the one true Church and the only one with valid Sacraments… how can I leave?

That is exactly what it is…a claim.

Too many people are held down by fear. Once the fear passes, they feel they can finally move on and discover the joy of being in Christ. Apologists know this, so sometimes they play the “utter damnation” card as a last resort, to keep people in their place.

It should not have to be this way.

Be assured, there is another option…
http://www.oca.org/images/news/SMALL/2006/120106pope.jpg

There can be real joy and a sense of community in the Body of Christ.

I know many of you will be disturbed by this post, and I am sorry it has come to this for me, too…

I have posted this in some other threads too, but where is the zeal, where is the love, where is the enthusiasm, where is the life-altering preaching and where are the wonders and miracles that were all signs among the first Christians?

When all that is said I am ever so tired of being scolded for my thoughts and being told that I obviously don’t understand the Eucharistic miracle since I am complaining… I have really had some heavy times where I wanted to leave but I also wanted Jesus in the Eucharist and Confession… and I am still here. But gosh… I don’t think people are meant to feel this way… and I dont think its unconditionally a sign of humility if we keep quiet about the sicknesses of the Church.
…:crying:

Thank you for sharing. God bless you.

Michael

 

[GraceDK]

Dear brother Michael ( I like you biography
One correction of my self… I know that the Church also regards the Orthodox Sacraments as valid.
As for the “claims”, I of course hold them as containing some truth, otherwise I would not be in the problem I am facing… but of course it gets to me when people say:“Be Catholic or be unpleasing to God”. I can’t be excused since I know Church teaching… but sometimes I consider taking a break from the Catholic Church to see if I would really be happier in another Church… It might be that what I long for dont exist… my biggest hope is that I find a good Catholic Church where I can invest my love and gifts…

Unlike many others I know why I believe what I believe… But its not easy when you see the ideal Church and the reality-church as being far away from being the same…

Are you a convert to eastern orthodoxy?