I really don't understand the Nine Choirs of Angels

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AdamC

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Frankly, I don’t have any problem with there “ranks” or a hierarchy of angels, but I don’t see how the concept of some of these choirs came into being.

These are the ones that have got me looped:

Principalities
Powers
Dominations
Virtues
Thrones

I read Colossians 1:16 and a few other verses that are referenced on some web sites about these supposed angels, and well, it is isn’t designating angels. It’s plainly obvious that it’s not. Am I missing some symbolism here?

“For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.” Col 1:16

Thrones: Thrones are chairs that kings sit on. They symbolize power, authority, lordship, and dominion. These are all qualities that Christ has.

Powers: Persons in positions of authority have power. It is the means by which they exercise their will.

Each of the words used to name these groups of angels has a meaning, and within the context of the scriptures where they are found, they are speaking of what they literally mean. What am I missing?

And don’t just cop out and tell me I’m missing tradition or grace or something like that. I want a real answer, give me a real, critical insight into what I am missing here.
 
AdamC said:
Frankly, I don’t have any problem with there “ranks” or a hierarchy of angels, but I don’t see how the concept of some of these choirs came into being.

These are the ones that have got me looped:

Principalities
Powers
Dominations
Virtues
Thrones

I read Colossians 1:16 and a few other verses that are referenced on some web sites about these supposed angels, and well, it is isn’t designating angels. It’s plainly obvious that it’s not. Am I missing some symbolism here?

“For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.” Col 1:16

Thrones: Thrones are chairs that kings sit on. They symbolize power, authority, lordship, and dominion. These are all qualities that Christ has.

Powers: Persons in positions of authority have power. It is the means by which they exercise their will.

Each of the words used to name these groups of angels has a meaning, and within the context of the scriptures where they are found, they are speaking of what they literally mean. What am I missing?

And don’t just cop out and tell me I’m missing tradition or grace or something like that. I want a real answer, give me a real, critical insight into what I am missing here.
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Where is the information about the Nine Choirs of Angels?
 
AdamC said:
Catholic.org, and a whole bunch of other sites that post essentially the same thing

thesacredheart.com/angels.htm is one I still had open in a tab.
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Sorry, quickly glancing- are the fallen ones in the choir? Would that make it Nine?
Maybe I should read this before commenting. Interesting, but I am trying to find this as some official site and really can’t determine that yet.
 
That was all a real kick in the pants. The front part, even.

Here I am wandering about on my “faith journey” (not to sound too new age-ish), trying to please God and whatnot, and I come across this. I can understand exploring an idea, but I couldn’t see anything in any of the scripture cited that indicated that what was being said was anything more than actual, literal principalities (etc.).

edit:

Apparently I can’t edit my OP. I found a page on JimmyAkin.org that talks about this same issue.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/the_nine_choirs.html
 
AdamC said:
. …
These are the ones that have got me looped:

Principalities
Powers
Dominations
Virtues
Thrones

. . …
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Note that the spirits which fell with Satan included members from all orders of angels, possibly with the exception of the Seraphim.

Romans 8:38
38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Ephesians 3:10
10 that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.
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Ephesians 6:12
12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
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Colossians 1:16
16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities–all things were created through him and for him.
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I think Dominions are probably the same as Dominations.

Colossians 2:15
15* He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him.
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I don’t see much that tells us what each do though.
**
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It’s well established there are nine choirs of angels. You won’t find it questioned inside Catholic tradition, and the writings of the saints.

People unfamiliar with the Catholicism may feel cautious at first. There is no need to be with such a history.

Heaven is a hierarchy. The angels at the top, illuminate the angels down the ranks with knowledge and love of God, and each of the choirs has a different general role.

In Heaven the extent of each creature’s beatific vision depends upon its nature and its merit. Each angel was created for a specific place in Heaven, and in the moment it was put to the test also merited more greatly to the extent it cleaved to God.

(It is so for men too, except the extent of our beatific vision is determined by our entire lives rather than in a single instant.)

God governs the world by means of not only His most direct intervention, but also through His angels. The literal meaning of the names used in scriptures gives an idea of the spiritual meaning of their roles.

From Fr. R.P. Thomas Pegues, O.P.'s Catechism of the Summa Theologica:

Do the pure spirits or the angels also act one upon the other?
Yes.

What is this action of one angel upon another called?
It is called illumination (CVI. i).

Why is it called illumination?
Because angels act one upon the other only for the reason of transmitting the light (knowledge) they receive from God concerning the course of His government (ibid.).

Is this light, imparted by God to angels, communicated to them in some graduated and ordered scale?
Yes.

What is meant by this?
By this is meant that God imparts this light first of all to those who are nearer to Him, and these in their turn mpart the light to other angels; thus, from the highest to the lowest the light is communicated in such wise that the first imparts it to the last by the action of those who are midway (CVI. 3).

There is then in this action of the angels whereby they communicate one to the other the light imparted by God to them the subordination of first, midway, and last?
Yes (CVIII. 2).

Is it possible to give some illustration of this subordination of this action of pure spirits one upon the other whereby they communicate the light imparted to them by God?
One might compare it to a stream of light which falls translucently from rock to rock, and is fed everlastingly by the waters of some beautiful lake situate in the heights of the mountain.

Does this subordination among the angels comprise divers groups?
Yes (CVIII. i).

How many kinds are there of these groups?
These groups are of two kinds.

What are these two kinds of groups called?
They are called the hierarchies and orders or the angelic choirs.

*What is meant by the word “hierarchy?” *
The word “hierarchy” is derived from the Greek and means “sacred principality”

What does the word “principality” entail?
The word “principality” entails two things: a prince and a multitude organized under him (CVIII. i).

When one speaks of a “sacred principality” what is meant by that?
“Sacred principality” understood in its strict and full sense means the whole assemblage of rational creatures called to participate in things holy under the sole government of God, who is the Supreme Prince and Sovereign King of them all (ibid.).

There ought then to be only one sacred principality and only one hierarchy in the world governed by God?
Yes, if one considers the sacred principality on the part of God, who is the Supreme Prince and Sovereign King of all rational creatures governed by Him, there is only one sacred principality or only one hierarchy which embraces both angels and men (CVIII. i).

Why then and in what sense does one speak of hierarchies in the plural, and even in a certain way of hierarchies in the world of pure spirits or angels only?
Because on the part of the multitude organized under a prince the principality differs according as that multitude in different ways is subject to the governing of the prince (CVIII. i).

Is it possible to give an illustration of this diversity in things human?
Yes, for under the same king are to be found cities or provinces differing from each other in that they are ruled by different laws and by different ministers of state (ibid.}.

It goes on, the details about each of the choirs.
 
The ‘Celestial Hierarchy’ also goes into the details of each particular choir, and there are various books on angels that are not touched by the New Age.

🙂
 
As I previously posted here in a similar context*:

The nine orders are indeed mentioned in the Bible, though the basis is, in my view, exceedingly thin. For instance, Colossians 1:16: “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.” Now, why we would read Paul here in speaking of “thrones” and “principalities” as celestial creatures instead of as a reference to earthly kingdoms and states, I have no idea. But we do – this is one of the key Biblical passages in establishing the angelic orders of Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and Powers.

Among the anathemata against Origen issued by the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, we find:
II. If anyone shall [deny] that [of the immaterial intelligences] . . . some became and are called Cherubim, others Seraphim, and Principalities, and Powers, and Dominations, and Thrones, and Angels, and as many other heavenly orders as there may be: let him be anathema.
So it is, as best I can tell, a dogmatically taught truth that these orders exist. And there is a Biblical basis, for however much it may be worth. Hope this helps.​
So this was dogmatically defined by an ecumenical council 1500 years ago, indicating strongly that it was a matter of common Christian belief well before then (i.e., not made up that Wednesday). Like the OP, I don’t really see it in the Bible, but the Christians of the first few centuries of the Church apparently did.

*I also accidentally posted this to this thread first. My bad.
 
MarkThompson said:
As I previously posted here in a similar context*:

The nine orders are indeed mentioned in the Bible, though the basis is, in my view, exceedingly thin. For instance, Colossians 1:16: “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.” Now, why we would read Paul here in speaking of “thrones” and “principalities” as celestial creatures instead of as a reference to earthly kingdoms and states, I have no idea. But we do – this is one of the key Biblical passages in establishing the angelic orders of Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and Powers.

Among the anathemata against Origen issued by the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, we find:
II. If anyone shall [deny] that [of the immaterial intelligences] . . . some became and are called Cherubim, others Seraphim, and Principalities, and Powers, and Dominations, and Thrones, and Angels, and as many other heavenly orders as there may be: let him be anathema.
So it is, as best I can tell, a dogmatically taught truth that these orders exist. And there is a Biblical basis, for however much it may be worth. Hope this helps.​
So this was dogmatically defined by an ecumenical council 1500 years ago, indicating strongly that it was a matter of common Christian belief well before then (i.e., not made up that Wednesday). Like the OP, I don’t really see it in the Bible, but the Christians of the first few centuries of the Church apparently did.

*I also accidentally posted this to this thread first. My bad.
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The information you give us about Origen still does not tell us that there was a firm number of how many Choirs of Angels. It allows for any given number.
 
StrawberryJam said:
The information you give us about Origen still does not tell us that there was a firm number of how many Choirs of Angels. It allows for any given number.
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True, but it certainly establishes that the Thrones, Principalities, Dominations, and so on properly denominate angelic orders, which, to me at least, is the stickier issue than the bare question of how many orders there are.
 
MarkThompson said:
True, but it certainly establishes that the Thrones, Principalities, Dominations, and so on properly denominate angelic orders, which, to me at least, is the stickier issue than the bare question of how many orders there are.
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Mark,

I think you are spot on with noting there are different orders of angels. Unfortunately, the specific number of nine seems to need a bit more for us to evaluate if we were to key in on this aspect. Who did key in on this aspect? I realize this is not required of the faithful to believe as it is not dogma.
Why key in on this aspect, unless one is trying very hard to make the church look as if they are arbitrarily coming up with numbers?
 
StrawberryJam said:
Mark,

I think you are spot on with noting there are different orders of angels. Unfortunately, the specific number of nine seems to need a bit more for us to evaluate if we were to key in on this aspect. Who did key in on this aspect? I realize this is not required of the faithful to believe as it is not dogma.
Why key in on this aspect, unless one is trying very hard to make the church look as if they are arbitrarily coming up with numbers?
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According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The treatise “De Coelesti Hierarchia”, which is ascribed to St. Denis the Areopagite [who is mentioned in Acts 17:34], and which exercised so strong an influence upon the Scholastics, treats at great length of the hierarchies and orders of the angels. It is generally conceded that this work was not due to St. Denis, but must date some centuries later. Though the doctrine it contains regarding the choirs of angels has been received in the Church with extraordinary unanimity, no proposition touching the angelic hierarchies is binding on our faith. The following passages from St. Gregory the Great (Hom. 34, In Evang.) will give us a clear idea of the view of the Church’s doctors on the point:
We know on the authority of Scripture that there are nine orders of angels, viz., Angels, Archangels, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Dominations, Throne, Cherubim and Seraphim. That there are Angels and Archangels nearly every page of the Bible tell us, and the books of the Prophets talk of Cherubim and Seraphim. St. Paul, too, writing to the Ephesians enumerates four orders when he says: ‘above all Principality, and Power, and Virtue, and Domination’; and again, writing to the Colossians he says: ‘whether Thrones, or Dominations, or Principalities, or Powers’. If we now join these two lists together we have five Orders, and adding Angels and Archangels, Cherubim and Seraphim, we find nine Orders of Angels.​
So, although it’s certainly a very ancient view, it may actually not be a dogmatic teaching that the orders of angels are nine in number.
 
MarkThompson said:
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The treatise “De Coelesti Hierarchia”, which is ascribed to St. Denis the Areopagite [who is mentioned in Acts 17:34], and which exercised so strong an influence upon the Scholastics, treats at great length of the hierarchies and orders of the angels. It is generally conceded that this work was not due to St. Denis, but must date some centuries later. Though the doctrine it contains regarding the choirs of angels has been received in the Church with extraordinary unanimity, no proposition touching the angelic hierarchies is binding on our faith. The following passages from St. Gregory the Great (Hom. 34, In Evang.) will give us a clear idea of the view of the Church’s doctors on the point:
We know on the authority of Scripture that there are nine orders of angels, viz., Angels, Archangels, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Dominations, Throne, Cherubim and Seraphim. That there are Angels and Archangels nearly every page of the Bible tell us, and the books of the Prophets talk of Cherubim and Seraphim. St. Paul, too, writing to the Ephesians enumerates four orders when he says: ‘above all Principality, and Power, and Virtue, and Domination’; and again, writing to the Colossians he says: ‘whether Thrones, or Dominations, or Principalities, or Powers’. If we now join these two lists together we have five Orders, and adding Angels and Archangels, Cherubim and Seraphim, we find nine Orders of Angels.​
So, although it’s certainly a very ancient view, it may actually not be a dogmatic teaching that the orders of angels are nine in number.
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This is excellent information. Thank you for this.
 
You guys, if it’s not in the Catechism, I would guess that it’s not official Church teaching. The Biblical basis for these classes of angels is extremely thin, and frankly, I don’t buy it. It doesn’t make sense within the greater context. You can’t just nab a verse, point out a few words, and say “This means this, and this means this” without looking at what the rest of the book says. The principalities and powers refer to earthly nations and authorities, and that is all they refer to. It means Jesus is going to stamp out our pride.

Pretty much everything else I’ve found in the teachings of the Catholic Church can be based in scripture, or at least in some apocryphal writings. The idea of the nine choirs of angels is wanting, and one of the founders (I think) of the site we’re currently on thinks so too.
 
The Second Council of Constantinople is an Ecumenical Council.

Old CE articles sometimes make mistakes, it’s rare, but it happens. Apologists make mistakes too, and tend to a little less rarely. It happens.
 
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