I Really Tried but

[MarkInOregon]

I

1. Papal Primacy AND Jurisdiction
2. Papal Infallibility
3. Catholic Soteriology IE the Council of Trent and the Catholic Dogmas and teaching on “Justification”
4. Purgatory

I reject Purgatory because it mocks the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ and what He did for us.

Let me just re-emphasise that I DO UNDERSTAND those Dogmas, I simply cannot accept them So I ask both the Catholics and non-Catholics to respond and give me your (name removed by moderator)ut/advice etc. What should I do?

I think you should engage in a discussion with someone knowledgable–maybe through these forums–regarding each dogma listed. I realize you say you do “understand” but I for one would like to know what you have studied to gain your understanding–and how you interpret what you have studied and how that has led to your rejection of the dogmas cited–i.e. you studied xyz and that led to rejection of abc arguments for Dogma X and led to mnop arguments in support of rejecting Dogma X.

For example–your statement regarding Purgatory mocking the passion and death of Our Lord Jesus Christ–I am currious about. It seems to me to show a lack of understanding about Purgatory. I fail to see how it “mocks”. I, for one, would be currious to follow your course of study, and how that study led to this conclusion and to your rejection of the dogma. Might be informative to both of us.

I believe each of those discussions should be their own thread. I think you owe it to yourself to investigate further and make sure you fully understand the dogma. Many men and women–smarter than you or I have studied these same dogmas and come to a much different conclusion. I accept the dogma of transubstantiation–even though it is beyond my capacity to understand it. I accept it because through my study I have come to accept the teaching authority of the Church and I take Christ at his word–doesn’t mean I understand it though. Lots of things I accept though I don’t understand them–like a lot of physics.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Their true beginning starts with Constantine when he declared himself the first bishop of Rome.

Constantine was never the Bishop of Rome. Sorry.

God bless

 

[JustaServant]

You sound like hippies to me.

 

[Church_Militant]

Constantine was never the Bishop of Rome. Sorry.

God bless

Yeah, and no one can provide any authentic historical documentation of that allegation. It’s really just some a-C propaganda that is parroted by people wanting to bash the Catholic Church. Challenging the authentic historicity of it is the best approach since authentic documentation doesn’t exist.

 

[Monica4316]

Kotek, some questions for you…

do you understand that Purgatory exists because of Christ’s sacrifice and His mercy? it’s for those whose sins are already forgiven… and its whole purpose is just making us ready for Heaven. This involves getting rid of our attachments to the world, helping us learn how to love God completely, etc, so that we’re able to love Him for all eternity…

as for the Papacy, what about quotes like these:

“You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas ‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

“Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’” (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

maybe it would help you to read these articles

catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

I’ve researched these topics and found enough information for me to convert to Catholicism!

God bless

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Why? Out of thankfulness for being saved from eternity in Hell after they realise that NOTHING they do, no matter how many “Good Works” they have piled up can save them from the Holy Justice of God who is angry at Sin and cannot stand sin. They realise that they are wretched sinners who deserve God’s wrath and punishment for sin. They realise that the only way they can or will be saved is by giving up their sin-stained Good Works and filty putrid menstrual rags righteousness and totally trusting in Christ Jesus and what He did for them by His Life and Passion and Death for their sins in their place and in their stead, That He took and bore the wrath and punishment of God for their sins and in their place. Then out of gratitude for what God in Christ did for them in their place they live a life of Holinesss and obedience to Him by doing His will by loving God and neighbor. This is the Gospel.

Amen! Well said! Don’t let anyone tell you that you “just don’t understand” the Gospel. You do! Like you, understanding the Gospel made it impossible for me to remain in the Catholic Church. Continue to pray and seek God!

May God bless you on your journey…

 

[fbl9]

**Why? Out of thankfulness for being saved from eternity in Hell after they realise that NOTHING they do, no matter how many “Good Works” they have piled up can save them from the Holy Justice of God who is angry at Sin **no catholic beleives what you are impling here…in order for this to have any value the person doing the good works must not have any faith in Christ.

and cannot stand sin. They realise that they are wretched sinners who deserve God’s wrath and punishment for sin. They realise that the only way they can or will be saved is by giving up their sin-stained Good Works

and what part of that do catholics not beleive?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

And I am another convert—because this is the Church Jesus founded on earth.

Spewing forth personal diatribes against the Church, for whatever reason, cannot sway us or lead us astray.

I have learned a lot since swimming the Tiber, and one thing that surprised me is the utterly unfounded hatred many have for Holy Mother Church.

Satan knows his true enemy. He has found allies in historical figures like Henry VIII and Stalin.

As for the others, who can say?

 

[juliamajor]

Why? Out of thankfulness for being saved from eternity in Hell after they realise that NOTHING they do, no matter how many “Good Works” they have piled up can save them from the Holy Justice of God who is angry at Sin and cannot stand sin. They realise that they are wretched sinners who deserve God’s wrath and punishment for sin. They realise that the only way they can or will be saved is by giving up their sin-stained Good Works and filty putrid menstrual rags righteousness and totally trusting in Christ Jesus and what He did for them by His Life and Passion and Death for their sins in their place and in their stead, That He took and bore the wrath and punishment of God for their sins and in their place. Then out of gratitude for what God in Christ did for them in their place they live a life of Holinesss and obedience to Him by doing His will by loving God and neighbor. This is the Gospel.

THERE WAS THE WIND-UP AND NOW THE PITCH.Now we know exactly who and what you are-you have not been honest and you have come here with an agenda.Going on Carm saying one thing then here and being another person is completely dishonest.You totally misunderstand and misjudge Catholic dogma.Your phoney apologies and insincere statements are just a reminder of the nonsense I’ve heard from some of the Protestant /evangelical wing for a large part of my life.And I’m fed up with the self imposed ignorance and the distorted view ,( which you don’t want to change in all honesty).So you come here an empty your bile and your venom for what reason? Christian unityI’v studied all sorts of religious dogmas and beliefs from all kinds of religions-christian-non christian/And while I might totally believe or grasp what they say at least I come away respecting them and their sincere search for God.
Along with the Orthodox church we are the only churches with an Apostolic connection-period.An historic fact.You should at least acknowledge that and respect that but it’s obvious that you don’t.

 

[juliamajor]

Amen! Well said! Don’t let anyone tell you that you “just don’t understand” the Gospel. You do! Like you, understanding the Gospel made it impossible for me to remain in the Catholic Church. Continue to pray and seek God!

May God bless you on your journey…

Just like you! Bile- venom how Christlike is that! merry Christmas to you too.

 

[juliamajor]

**Why? Out of thankfulness for being saved from eternity in Hell after they realise that NOTHING they do, no matter how many “Good Works” they have piled up can save them from the Holy Justice of God who is angry at Sin and cannot stand sin. They realise that they are wretched sinners who deserve God’s wrath and punishment for sin. They realise that the only way they can or will be saved is by giving up their sin-stained Good Works and filty putrid menstrual rags righteousness and totally trusting in Christ Jesus and what **He did for them by His Life and Passion and Death for their sins in their place and in their stead, That He took and bore the wrath and punishment of God for their sins and in their place. Then out of gratitude for what God in Christ did for them in their place they live a life of Holinesss and obedience to Him by doing His will by loving God and neighbor. This is the Gospel.

A let me guess- the Best of Jonthan Edwards? Sinners in the hands of an angry God?
I have to say menstrual rags is my favorite part! very colorful:thumbsup:

 

[AnneElliot]

Kotek,

Pray for faith. I will pray for you, too.

 

[juliamajor]

Christadelphians are everywhere spoken against. We are ridden off as a cult and dismissed and unheard. We do not participate in world governments or politics. We are conscientious observers. We are considered fundamentalists as we follow the strict teachings of the apostles as given in Scripture. Every one of us is loving and kind and seeks out his or her own salvation with fear and trembling.

As for Catholic drawing their line to Christ in History, that line is paved with gold and smeared with blood. Their true beginning starts with Constantine when he declared himself the first bishop of Rome. Before him, the various bodies split apart and were corrupted over time with false doctrines. The Catholics were one of these sects who happened to emerge more prominent.
Seeing how those who shall be saved are so few (Peter compares it to the Flood and Sodom and Gommorah), can the Catholics claim to be the true faith with over a billion followers? If it were like the Flood, then only a few of the Catholics alive today would be saved. It seems almost certain with a 1.1 billion population, that at least 1 billion Catholics would perish, if not more. I think a fair estimate would be one out of a million. So, if there were a billion, only 1,000 would be saved. And of seven billion alive in the world, only seven thousand would be saved.

I would be looking for a small body of righteous and loving people who maintain the true doctrine as given by the apostles, the prophets and Christ.

Wow-I’m glad you’re not in control of the Floodgates.There would next to no one left Except the self anointed “remnant”.Who made you the “remnant”.Did God choose you? did he tell you.?
Again my favorite part - shows your grasp of church dogma is equal to your grasp of history- which is nil! Get a Real genuine history book not written by a catholic baiter instead of the pseudo history that you’ve been fed.

 

[BernadetteM]

THERE WAS THE WIND-UP AND NOW THE PITCH.Now we know exactly who and what you are-you have not been honest and you have come here with an agenda.Going on Carm saying one thing then here and being another person is completely dishonest.You totally misunderstand and misjudge Catholic dogma.Your phoney apologies and insincere statements are just a reminder of the nonsense I’ve heard from some of the Protestant /evangelical wing for a large part of my life.And I’m fed up with the self imposed ignorance and the distorted view ,( which you don’t want to change in all honesty).So you come here an empty your bile and your venom for what reason? Christian unityI’v studied all sorts of religious dogmas and beliefs from all kinds of religions-christian-non christian/And while I might totally believe or grasp what they say at least I come away respecting them and their sincere search for God.
Along with the Orthodox church we are the only churches with an Apostolic connection-period.An historic fact.You should at least acknowledge that and respect that but it’s obvious that you don’t.

This is exactly what I have been posting off and on for months, when Kotex comes to CAF and then to CARM with completely different views. I believe that I said in another post, not this one that Kotex is playing us.

I think I was the first person to see his posts on CARM many months ago and tried to warn CAF posters what he was really all about. I felt they were wasting their energy trying to show him what the Church teaches. Hopefully he will now be tired of the game and stay on CARM, where he can spew his hatred for the Church. Of course we should pray for him and others who hate the Church, but sometimes it does no good. Only the Holy Spirit can convince someone of the truth if they have an open heart.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[MariaG]

As I was reading the thread, I thought, someone needs to pm Church Militant. This is right up his alley.

But I see he already found it

As I feel others are dealing just fine with the problems listed by the kotek, I will just post a reminder to all here that you can bet that how kotek is treated will be viewed over and over by those who oppose the Church and we need to stand blameless before Our Lord.

Defend the Church with a passion. Do not belittle Her by personal attacks on those who would attack the Church. That can be hard with this kind of poster. Pray hard and long. Censor, censor and censor again. Read over and over, before you post.

May the Lord guide all those posting here defending the Church in charity, truth and justice.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[zach_dunn]

Amen! Well said! Don’t let anyone tell you that you “just don’t understand” the Gospel. You do! Like you, understanding the Gospel made it impossible for me to remain in the Catholic Church. Continue to pray and seek God!

May God bless you on your journey…

Against the wishes of the OP, I will venture to say that Kotek, and Priscilla Ann, do not understand Catholic Soteriology in the slightest. Whether Kotek thinks he understands our position or not, he doesn’t; this is proven by his statements made in Priscilla’s quote.

:banghead:

When will n-C (and especially a-C) learn that Catholics and the Catholic Church do not espouse works-salvation. I will admit that it took me a great deal of time to understand the Catholic view of salvation, I’m not quite sure I completely understand it now. One person that really helped me in this respect was John Henry Cardinal Newman; more specifically, one of the things he said really made sense to me:

On the whole, then, salvation is both by faith and by works. St. James says, not dead faith, and St. Paul, not dead works. St. James, “not by faith only,” for that would be dead faith: St Paul, “not by works only,” for such would be dead works. Faith alone can make works living; works alone can make faith living. Take away either, and you take away both;—he alone has faith who has works,—he alone has works who has faith.

This just made the gears in my brain align somehow . . . if you are truly sincere, I hope this helps you.

Go here for the whole sermon if you wish.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Each faithful Catholic, whether mere convert like myself, or blessed from the cradle, has heard this all before.

We’ve heard all the bile, the venom, the lies straight from Satan’s teleprompter.

Whether the Catholic-basher is on Jack Chick’s payroll, mad at Holy Mother Church for whatever reason, or simply repeating in all innocence the vicious lies of others, we cannot say.

I speak only for myself when I do say, however, that I ain’t in the least impressed.

PS: I await someone bringing up ‘The Pope was Hitler’s best bud’ Tired Old Saw # 42.

 

[paxvobiscum]

Each faithful Catholic, whether mere convert like myself, or blessed from the cradle, has heard this all before.

We’ve heard all the bile, the venom, the lies straight from Satan’s teleprompter.

Whether the Catholic-basher is on Jack Chick’s payroll, mad at Holy Mother Church for whatever reason, or simply repeating in all innocence the vicious lies of others, we cannot say.

I speak only for myself when I do say, however, that I ain’t in the least impressed.

PS: I await someone bringing up ‘The Pope was Hitler’s best bud’ Tired Old Saw # 42.

So true! I think what disturbes me the most is how so many non-Catholics expect one to be not only a “well informed Catholic” but also a theologian, a historian, a philosopher and have the ability to “prove” anything or everything at anytime, anyplace. In my experience these folks are usually not seeking any type of enlightment or understanding, nor are they interested in anything other than the superior feeling they seem to get by slamming a Catholic with their interpretation of the Bible. I gave up trying to “help” a long time ago. Life is stressful enough without throwing animosity toward other Christians. I wish these folks would seek those who are not Christians and work on them rather than beating the dead horse with Catholic Christians who are pleased to be in communion with the Church.

 

[paxvobiscum]

Go here for the whole sermon if you wish.

Cool! Thanks for posting that link:thumbsup:

 

[zach_dunn]

Cool! Thanks for posting that link:thumbsup:

No problem!