I respectfully ask evangelical, protestant and sola scriptura proponents...

[louis91766]

The mass is the same all around the world…

Are you speaking here of the Catholic Mass?
Because I don;t think it is the same around the world. There are several differences. For example:
In the Roman Church, Catholics say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son. In the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church, Catholics say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.
And in the USA, Catholics in the Roman Church say that the Blood was shed for all. However, Catholics in other parts of the world, and in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church say that the Blood was shed for many.

 

[Rosie12]

…

There are those here who assert that this organization, proven to have done both good and evil, is the first and only representative of Jesus’ Kingdom on earth. The other side of the argument is that 1) Jesus’ Kingdom is not seen except through the eyes of the heart, and 2) Jesus’ Church constitutes those who believe in Him and humbly, joyeously and obediently follow Him in service irrespective of their mode of practice - Anglican, Wesleyan, Catholic, Charismatic - whatever.

The experts of Jesus day, the ones who claimed to have authetic rights to God’s Kingdom and His laws - the Pharisees - made the same mistake: they were looking for an external membership, not an internal one. Jesus is interested in the inside of the cup, not the outside.

…

Hey there… can you explain Paul’s admonition against a watered down gospel? Since all of the little churches have conflicting gospels, I would like to know which is the right one. (i.e. is “once saved, always saved” part of the right gospel?) This is what happens when you don’t have the benefit of Apostolic Tradition. Do you realize what I could do if I took the Bible and took a bunch of verses and wove them into a grand tale and made a new religion out of it? Ah, but that would be wrong because I wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so, right? But the Holy Spirit was the one who informed Calvin, Luther, etc. Right? But… even THEY disagreed with each other. And now you have all these people claiming they’ve been inspired by the Holy Spirit to be an expert on scriptural exegesis… I guess the Holy Spirit must be pretty flighty and changes His mind an awful lot, eh? He must be divided, since His messengers are divided. Isn’t that what Paul said? Oh wait… no, I think he warned AGAINST a divided church for EXACTLY that reason… because the Holy Spirit is NOT divided, and Christ did NOT leave us to our own devices to figure out the mysterious document called the Bible, and expecting us to use our pea-sized brains and broken hearts to do so…

 

[gerhardc]

The Catholic Church (defined by the Apostles as One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic) is that which is led by the Successors of the Apostles, especially Peter’s Successor (who happens to be the Bishop of Rome, due to various historical circumstances).

I believe that is where your mistake is. I mean it sincerely. I know you probably think it is impossible to be mistaken in this because the Catholic movement has preached it for so long and that it appears ‘straight-forward’ in the Bible. Do note though that the definition of the church given above is not consistent with that which Jesus calls His followers: Jesus says that *only *those who are born by the Spirit of God can (and do) enter the Kingdom of God (refer John 3:3-5). It says absolutely nothing about membership to an organization, baptism by that organization or being led by anyone else but Jesus and His Spirit. Moreover, in the passage noted (John 3:3-5) Jesus makes the point to Nicodemus - a learned scholar and ‘leader of God’s people’ - that he still simply doesn’t ‘get it’. He (Nicodemus) has vastly mistaken assumptions. Being a religious leader does not guarantee that you actually understand what Jesus Kingdom is about, or what His Church is all about. I believe the Catholic movement may very well be a type of the man Nicodemus - having much knowledge but still not ‘getting it’. I mean not to offend. Jesus says that those who comprise His followers are born by the Spirit.

Its size, its holdings, and its political and promotional activities are entirely incidental to the core fact that what Jesus established was a community of *followers *led by the Apostles.

Please refer John 3:3-5 and 1 John 2:3 and Romans 8:14 for what it means to be a follower of Christ - the are “born again”, they obey His word and they are led by His Spirit.

This community continues to exist, and continues to be led by the successors of those same Apostles.

This interpretation hinges on Matthew 16:18, which is an interpretation only. The ‘other half’ of Christianity sees it in another way altogether. By your own admission this particular half of Christianity has access to the Spirit.

… we discern which is the authentic Church and which are the imitators by means of the test of the Four Marks, given to us by the Apostles - is it One with the Church established by Christ in 33 AD (that is, is its line of succession unbroken, and is it in full communion today with Peter’s Successor?)

You may follow that route if you want to, but it is a man-made test and by definition corrupt. You may also choose the route the Bible suggests: John 3:3-5, 1 John 2:3 and Romans 8:14. I choose the latter route. I believe it is the correct route: being born by the Spirit, obedient to His word and led by the Holy Spirit. Those who follow in this way will use the sacraments correctly by heart, meaning the attitude is more important than the actual symbols used (refer 1 Corinthians 11:23-32). Note v. 29: *“For anyone who eats and drinks without discriminating and recognizing with due appreciation that [it is Christ’s] body, eats and drinks a sentence (a verdict of judgment) upon himself.” *(Amplified Bible). It is about attitude while using the symbols, **not **as much about the symbols themselves.

Jesus did not condemn the Pharisees for having a visible religion. Rather, He condemned them for making up their own religion and offering it in replacement of that which was given to Moses by God.

Rather, Christ noted their external expression of faith while lacking internal conviction - it is about that which is on the inside, not that which is on the outside: “Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.” (Matthew 15:7-8). I have tried to explain above that the Catholic movement may very well be making the same mistake as the Pharisees - approving or disapproving by external appearance or history or lineage or succession but neglecting the weightier issues (refer Matthew 23:23) of internal rectitude through a reborn spirit (refer John 3:3-5) and faith towards God (refer Romans 10:9-10).

The Holy Spirit obviously speaks to those outside the Church - otherwise, how would they convert?

Jesus accused St. Paul of persecuting Himself - thus Jesus identified Himself as the Church, meaning that the Church is the self-expression (or “body”) of Christ on earth. Therefore, what the Church commands, let all obey as the command of Christ Himself, and what the Church teaches, let all believe, as from God Himself.

Are you sure? By this very rationale Jesus handed the keys of His Kingdom to Himself as per your favourite Matthew 16:18. No, refer 1 Corinthians 15:9, Galatians 1:13 etc.: “For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” Paul is clearly not talking about that which Peter supposedly headed up but is referring to the followers of Jesus instead. Thus, the “Church” is the followers of Jesus.

But if the Body of Christ, the Church, is not visible, then no one can either obey it, or learn from it, since they would not be able to find it, or distinguish it from any other group of well-meaning people.

This is the very reason Jesus sent the “Helper”, remember? *"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, **He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said *to you." (John 14:26)

 

[gerhardc]

Hey there… can you explain Paul’s admonition against a watered down gospel? Since all of the little churches have conflicting gospels, I would like to know which is the right one. (i.e. is “once saved, always saved” part of the right gospel?) This is what happens when you don’t have the benefit of Apostolic Tradition.

I believe your heart may be sincere but your vision is limited. Yes, I know that sounds condescending, … I do not mean it in that way. I have no problem with much of the Catholic movement - I believe there are true followers of Christ there - when there is a pursuit for a rebirth by the Spirit of God (refer John 3:3-5) as a priority over membership to an organization or a following of tradition. Jesus says that if you cannot make this truth (John 3:3-5) a reality for yourself you have not entered the Kingdom of God, no matter who expressed a blessing over you or who declared you blessed or holy. It simply does not matter. Then, after you have received a renewed spirit (a reborn spirit), you pursue the Holy Spirit through His word and prayer to shape you according to His priorities, **not **the priorities of the head of a religious movement: “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26). Are you willing to receive a renewed spirit and be taught by the Holy Spirit for personal spiritual growth? If you are you will pursue being taught by the Spirit *above *being taught by men, as per John 14:26 above (that does not mean that men cannot teach you, of course, but they are not our primary source of teaching). That is the very reason why the Father sent His Spirit, isn’t it? Are you making use of it or do you prefer to pursue traditions instead? I know, I know, you may say ‘I already *have *a new spirit because I was baptised by the Catholic movement’, or, ‘the Holy Spirit is already teaching me’. If that is so - good. Then you are doing what Romans 8:14 is saying.

Do you realize what I could do if I took the Bible and took a bunch of verses and wove them into a grand tale and made a new religion out of it? Ah, but that would be wrong because I wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so, right? But the Holy Spirit was the one who informed Calvin, Luther, etc. Right? But… even THEY disagreed with each other.

Why do Catholics assume that if you disagree with them you must surely be batting for the Protestants. Please, do not make that assumption, it will be a wrong one.

And now you have all these people claiming they’ve been inspired by the Holy Spirit to be an expert on scriptural exegesis… I guess the Holy Spirit must be pretty flighty and changes His mind an awful lot, eh? He must be divided, since His messengers are divided. Isn’t that what Paul said? Oh wait… no, I think he warned AGAINST a divided church for EXACTLY that reason… because the Holy Spirit is NOT divided, and Christ did NOT leave us to our own devices to figure out the mysterious document called the Bible, and expecting us to use our pea-sized brains and broken hearts to do so…

No, He is not divided. What He is is interested. Interested in you as an individual, even if you don’t get ***it ***(hearing Him correctly) right the first time, or the second time, or the seven hundred and seventy-seventh time, … because He is grace and He is interested in you inasmuch as you may be interested in the natural growth of your own child or children. You don’t say, 'because you do not get it all right at exactly the same time - like an orchestra playing a symphony - you are not my children. No, as the parent you factor in the immaturities and imperfections of a child and groom them to maturity. The key then, obviously, is that they (your children) listen to you and follow what you teach them. What Jesus is after is you pursuing to follow His Spirit when teaching you (refer Romans 8:14). If you do through your reborn spirit then you are His Body - His Church. No membership through lineage or “tithes & offerings” (refer the Charismatics) required. We know that, like me or you or every other sincerely seeking follower of Jesus, even Paul struggled to get ***it ***(hearing the Spirit correctly) right all the time. Sometimes he heard his own desires and sometimes he heard the Spirit. We, today, are no different (refer Romans 7:21-8:2): *“I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.” *Are you going to say to Paul, ‘well you didn’t get it right all the time, so I best not pursue God through His word and His Spirit in the way you do - I’d much rather pursue tradition’? I didn’t think so.

 

[Izdaari]

Um we don’t think our denominations were founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost. That would be madness. But denominations aren’t what Protestants think of when they think of the Church, no more than Catholics think of different dioceses when they think of the Church.

Of course I don’t claim that the assembly with which I fellowship is the unique and only church founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost so although I am evangelical thus thread does not apply to me.

Exactly so! Indeed, if any church does claim to be the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ, I take it as a red flag, a warning sign of heretics or cultists. With the Catholic Church, it may possibly be true, but I’m not convinced yet.

 

[CopticChristian]

Exactly so! Indeed, if any church does claim to be the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ, I take it as a red flag, a warning sign of heretics or cultists. With the Catholic Church, it may possibly be true, but I’m not convinced yet.

You might want to read, reread the letter to the Ephesians…there is a Church, the mystery, through which the manifold wisdom of God is known…it is something God knows and now reveals…where is it? Has to be like Christ, the same yesterday, today and tommorrow.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[Nicea325]

Exactly so! Indeed, if any church does claim to be the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ, I take it as a red flag, a warning sign of heretics or cultists. With the Catholic Church, it may possibly be true, but I’m not convinced yet.

You take it as a red flag? Really? So in other words, no one for the past 2,000 truly knows if Jesus founded His Church? Did it disappear? I guess it all has been a fairy tale or one big fat lie?

I take it more of a red flag when one questions it.

 

[joe370]

With the Catholic Church, it may possibly be true, but I’m not convinced yet.

Keep digging and don’t give up my friend. For me, when I was where you are now, it came down to either one of the eastern orthodox churches or the catholic church, as the church of Matthew 16, Acts 1:8, Acts 2:1, John 16:13, Matthew 28:20 and John 14:16, for no other churches can trace their origin all the way back to the apostolic age.

Good luck on your journey my friend…

 

[1voice]

What you don’t realize is that once your missionaries leave, your “once saved always saved” converts are looking to the Catholic Church for the Sacraments - they are not remaining alone in the wilderness to try to practice their faith “lone-ranger style” - the RCIA classes in Africa number in the hundreds to thousands of men and women who, having heard of Jesus from the Protestants, now want to enter into a personal, sacramental relationship with Him.

… It seems that you have taken everything that I talked about above and filtered it through your prism to fit your paradigm.
Negating the work of establishing the truth … and minimizing those that are outside of your denomination in no way diminishes their success in establishing Christ’s Church.
Here is only one example … the one that I am most familiar with.
The pastor of the church that I attend has been traveling to Indonesia and the Pacific rim fo over 40 years … He and his wife have established many Christian churches and have an ongoing program for training and equipping thousands of Christians at all levels from new converts to pastors. We (and I personally) have participated in the project. Thousands of conversions. Thousands of amazing miraculous healings… all in the name of Jesus. People from all walks of life have committed themselves to this undertaking both financially and with their lives. Millions of dollars have been poured into the establishment of Christ in every part of Indonesia through this 40 year project … When our church first started traveling to Indonesia the population was about 1 or 2% Christian … Now there is a Christian coalition political party … with real clout in the Govt. and the estimates that the Indonesian leadership deny … is that now Indonesia is about 30% Christian … in the largest Muslim country in the world where the laws severely prohibit the establishment of any new Churches. Grassroots evangelism is only one piece of the puzzle.

 

[1voice]

You made the assumption that one effort has accomplished it all … I didnt.

… and thank you for your kind words.

I am in no way negating other efforts by other denominations … I was responding to the above poster that seemed to be attempting to do that.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe that is where your mistake is. I mean it sincerely. I know you probably think it is impossible to be mistaken in this because the Catholic movement has preached it for so long and that it appears ‘straight-forward’ in the Bible. Do note though that the definition of the church given above is not consistent with that which Jesus calls His followers: Jesus says that *only *those who are born by the Spirit of God can (and do) enter the Kingdom of God (refer John 3:3-5).

One is born of the Holy Spirit by means of Trinitarian Catholic baptism. One can be mid-wifed into this new birth by means of a rush of feelings, or a sense of sorrow for sins, but these are not, of themselves, the new birth - they are only the midwife. The new birth is to be baptized with water into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, as it says in Matthew 28…

It says absolutely nothing about membership to an organization, baptism by that organization or being led by anyone else but Jesus and His Spirit.

And yet, one cannot baptize himself. One must be baptized by another person - which tells us that a visible community is, in fact, required.

Moreover, in the passage noted (John 3:3-5) Jesus makes the point to Nicodemus - a learned scholar and ‘leader of God’s people’ - that he still simply doesn’t ‘get it’. He (Nicodemus) has vastly mistaken assumptions. Being a religious leader does not guarantee that you actually understand what Jesus Kingdom is about, or what His Church is all about. I believe the Catholic movement may very well be a type of the man Nicodemus - having much knowledge but still not ‘getting it’. I mean not to offend. Jesus says that those who comprise His followers are born by the Spirit.

You are talking here about a company of thousands of men who are, in fact, for the most part (95% of them, anyway) led by the Holy Spirit. They would not be where they are, if they were not.

Please refer John 3:3-5 and 1 John 2:3 and Romans 8:14 for what it means to be a follower of Christ - the are “born again”, they obey His word and they are led by His Spirit.

And which of the many Churches is it, again, that keeps on stressing the concept of obedience … ? Oh, wait, that would be the Catholic Church.

This interpretation hinges on Matthew 16:18, which is an interpretation only. The ‘other half’ of Christianity sees it in another way altogether. By your own admission this particular half of Christianity has access to the Spirit.

Your half actually doesn’t have an interpretation of this verse. All they have is to scream as loudly as possible that Jesus could not possibly have been speaking to Peter, despite the evidence to the contrary in the passage itself. They have no coherent explanation of what Jesus did, in fact, mean to say. They come up with all kinds of diverse explanations, but as long as none of them has Jesus renaming Peter and giving him the keys to Heaven, all is well, and they can cheerfully “agree to disagree.”

I believe it is the correct route: being born by the Spirit, obedient to His word and led by the Holy Spirit. Those who follow in this way will use the sacraments correctly by heart, meaning the attitude is more important than the actual symbols used (refer 1 Corinthians 11:23-32). Note v. 29: *“For anyone who eats and drinks without discriminating and recognizing with due appreciation that [it is Christ’s] body, eats and drinks a sentence (a verdict of judgment) upon himself.” *(Amplified Bible). It is about attitude while using the symbols, **not **as much about the symbols themselves.

None of which is possible to do outside of the Catholic Church, because outside of the Catholic Church, the lineage of the Apostles has been broken, and they cannot - no matter how hard they try - have any Sacraments, because their priests (if they even have priests at all) have not been ordained with the necessary authority to do so. Authority can only come from higher or equal authority - it cannot come from disobedience.

This is the very reason Jesus sent the “Helper”, remember? *“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, **He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said ***to you.” (John 14:26)

The Holy Spirit is the very soul of the Catholic Church.

 

[louis91766]

None of which is possible to do outside of the Catholic Church, because outside of the Catholic Church, the lineage of the Apostles has been broken, and they cannot - no matter how hard they try - have any Sacraments, because their priests (if they even have priests at all) have not been ordained with the necessary authority to do so.

That is not true. The RCC recognised the validity of the Sacrament of Baptism as performed by Protestants. Further, all of the Sacraments in several other non-Catholic Churches are recognised, such as the Russian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Coptic Churches, and many others.

 

[gerhardc]

jmcrae, let there be no doubt that you are a devout Catholic, believing that the Catholic movement holds the keys to truth. As we know, and as you also have asserted, that which is believed and that which is truth is not always the same thing.

In the end, you have to believe certain things about the movement you subscribe to. The same for me, of course. In the end, whilst we recognise (some) good in the other’s approach, we each *believe *the other’s beliefs are misguided. We base that on our own sets of evidence. You choose the evidence of an organization that has declared itself infallible in its understanding of the Bible (consider, even Jesus says that if He only witnessed about Himself His witness would not be true) on the basis that it claims to have been *responsible *for the canonization of the Bible. Even if it were true, which I am not saying it is, my belief is that, although there is a historical connection between the group of Early Church believers and the Catholic movement of today, there is little resemblance in the truth they hold. I base that belief on the fruit the organization has born (some good, some very bad) over the ages. I come to the conclusion that God is not represented in an organization but in the hearts of believers instead.

You will say that ‘God is in the Catholic movement’ ( refer “The Holy Spirit is the very soul of the Catholic Church.”). Really? *Really?! *Are you saying God is incapable of pro-actively expelling those who are/were responsible for XXXXXXXXXXX (I block this out before my post is deleted, again, or I am expelled)? Either God is incapable of expelling that which is not of Him or what you said about the Holy Spirit being the “soul of the Catholic” movement is not true. Which is it please?

From your *beliefs *- and I respect them even if I don’t agree with them, believe it or not - you believe that it is an *organization *that makes a baptism effective, not the repented and submitted heart of the believer. You seem to read John 3:5 like this: ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Catholic Church, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’. But of course that is error! The Holy Spirit does not dwell in organizations. He dwells in the hearts of people who have been born again - **please **read John 3: 3-18. Then you mistakenly think (probably because of what goes on on Christian TV in the US, which is ridiculous anyway) that being born again relates to a feeling. Far from it - perhaps you need to sit down with someone who is indeed born again?

Originally Posted by gerhardc
I believe that is where your mistake is. I mean it sincerely. I know you probably think it is impossible to be mistaken in this because the Catholic movement has preached it for so long and that it appears ‘straight-forward’ in the Bible. Do note though that the definition of the church given above is not consistent with that which Jesus calls His followers: Jesus says that only those who are born by the Spirit of God can (and do) enter the Kingdom of God (refer John 3:3-5).

You are talking here about a company of thousands of men who are, in fact, for the most part (95% of them, anyway) led by the Holy Spirit. They would not be where they are, if they were not.

Since when does number or size determine truth? “wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction” (Matthew 7:13). Did the multitude of Nazi officers make the Nazis truthful or Nazism a truthful philosophy? I think not.

And which of the many Churches is it, again, that keeps on stressing the concept of obedience … ? Oh, wait, that would be the Catholic Church.

The question is; obedience to the Catholic movement above obedience to the word of God? Because, if it is obedience to the word of God then all those in the Catholic movement would seek to be born again (refer John 3:3-5) and they would seek to be directly led by the Holy Spirit (refer 1 John 2:27) - no conduit will be required. Of course, I do not say that there are not born again believers in the Catholic movement.

 

[Nicea325]

gerhardc:The question is; obedience to the Catholic movement above obedience to the word of God?

False dichotomy. You are making it out to be: Either the CC or God. You cannot pit Christ Church against Himself or separate the Mystical Body of Christ (Church) from Himself.

gerhardc:Because, if it is obedience to the word of God then all those in the Catholic movement would seek to be born again (refer John 3:3-5) and they would seek to be directly led by the Holy Spirit (refer 1 John 2:27) - no conduit will be required. Of course, I do not say that there are not born again believers in the Catholic movement.

All baptized Catholics are born-again into Christ’s life,death and resurrection. Obedience to the church is obedience to God. Why do non-Catholics have the belief church and the Word of God are two competing entities. You read your Bible again.

 

[jmcrae]

That is not true. The RCC recognised the validity of the Sacrament of Baptism as performed by Protestants. Further, all of the Sacraments in several other non-Catholic Churches are recognised, such as the Russian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Coptic Churches, and many others.

Thank you for that note of correction - I got a little carried away with the hyperbole.

Protestants can certainly be validly baptized and married. What they cannot do, though, is receive the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Reconciliation, which both are pretty nearly essential to the successful outcome of the Christian life, unless one is a living Saint on earth, or else dies very young, before becoming capable of committing serious sin.

 

[jmcrae]

You will say that ‘God is in the Catholic movement’ ( refer “The Holy Spirit is the very soul of the Catholic Church.”). Really? *Really?! *Are you saying God is incapable of pro-actively expelling those who are/were responsible for XXXXXXXXXXX (I block this out before my post is deleted, again, or I am expelled)? Either God is incapable of expelling that which is not of Him or what you said about the Holy Spirit being the “soul of the Catholic” movement is not true. Which is it please?

God does, indeed, expel those who commit sin from His Church. That’s why there is no such thing as “once saved always saved.” A Catholic certificate of baptism is not a guarantee of Heaven; you must also live a perfect life - or go to Confession whenever you commit sin, to be readmitted into full holy communion with the Church (the body of Christ).

From your *beliefs *- and I respect them even if I don’t agree with them, believe it or not - you believe that it is an *organization *that makes a baptism effective, not the repented and submitted heart of the believer.

Actually what I believe is that the Holy Spirit does all of the work of Baptism, by means of the Church. The repentant heart of the believer receives Baptism in a worthy manner, but does not actually cause it to take place.

Since when does number or size determine truth? “wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction” (Matthew 7:13). Did the multitude of Nazi officers make the Nazis truthful or Nazism a truthful philosophy? I think not.

We already know that Nazism is false. (I hope!) I also hope that we agree that the Holy Spirit is Truth.

So, where we see thousands of men being filled with the Holy Spirit to preach, administer the Sacraments, and perform miracles of healing, both of the soul (Sacrament of Reconciliation) and of the body (Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick), and not only that, but that they are in the majority, by far, of a certain class of men (Catholic priests) then shouldn’t it give you pause to think, if the Holy Spirit is indwelling those men to that degree, then maybe there is something to this? Maybe there is, in fact, something “Holy” about the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?

The question is; obedience to the Catholic movement above obedience to the word of God?

Obedience to Christ’s Body is the same thing as obedience to Christ. When He was here in His human flesh, would you have disobeyed Him because He had the appearance of a “mere man”? Ask yourself that.

 

[gerhardc]

No disrespect, … I have limited time and can mostly debate one at a time. If you don’t mind that I don’t respond to your assertions directly please?

False dichotomy. You are making it out to be: Either the CC or God. You cannot pit Christ Church against Himself or separate the Mystical Body of Christ (Church) from Himself.

All baptized Catholics are born-again into Christ’s life,death and resurrection. Obedience to the church is obedience to God. Why do non-Catholics have the belief church and the Word of God are two competing entities. You read your Bible again.

 

[gerhardc]

God does, indeed, expel those who commit sin from His Church.

Do you mind sharing that untruth with those who have been victims of XXXXXX and have not received as much as an apology let alone compensation or having the perpetrators expelled? No my friend, I’m afraid your assertion above and reality do not tie up at all. In fact, God does not live in organizations. He lives in the hearts of people who have been born of the Spirit (refer John 3:3-5), and if you do not believe the Bible, then speak to someone whose life was really changed after having received a new spirit - these you may not see on the TV shows on US TV. For those who have been born again - as was the case with St. Paul - they can say “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” (Eph 3:20), and “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” (2 Cor. 5:17).

Actually what I believe is that the Holy Spirit does all of the work of Baptism, by means of the Church. The repentant heart of the believer receives Baptism in a worthy manner, but does not actually cause it to take place.

Again, your definition of the Church is that of an organization that employs officials to perform certain actions on its behalf. God does not live in organizations. It is indeed as you say, ‘baptism by the Church’, only that “Church” constitutes those (not ‘that’) who are born again (refer John 3:3-5), those who obey the word of God (refer 1 John 2:3) and those who are led by His Spirit (refer Romans 8:14).

We already know that Nazism is false. (I hope!) I also hope that we agree that the Holy Spirit is Truth.

To be technically correct - Jesus says that His word is truth (refer John 17:17). That’s why its good to read and follow what Jesus said before reading or following what any other person said. I wish not to perpetuate this example (note, it is not a comparison (phew!)), yet your assertion requires an answer. Of course we know it now. But you couldn’t tell the Nazis that before or during WWII. The point being that the majority of them blindly followed their leaders. If they had read their Bibles they may very well not have subscribed to what they ended up subscribing to (Note: Gerhard is a German name).

So, where we see thousands of men being filled with the Holy Spirit to preach, administer the Sacraments, and perform miracles of healing, both of the soul (Sacrament of Reconciliation) and of the body (Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick), and not only that, but that they are in the majority, by far, of a certain class of men (Catholic priests) then shouldn’t it give you pause to think, if the Holy Spirit is indwelling those men to that degree, then maybe there is something to this? Maybe there is, in fact, something “Holy” about the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?

My friend, perhaps you are not looking at the world around you with sober eyes? Really. Do you really believe that miracles happen only in Catholic movement meetings? For, I have not only seen miracles take place outside of it, I have also performed a miracle of healing and have been the subject of the miracle of healing - both physical and otherwise. Here is the surprise, I am not ordained, I was not baptized in the Catholic movement, I am not a member of the Catholic organization, I do not use Holy Communion the way Catholics do (although I take care to “remember the Lord” when I do use communion as He said we should). And yet, I have seen more miracles happen outside of the Catholic movement than I have even** heard of the same taking place inside the Catholic movement world-wide**. What’s more, even the charismatics with their prosperity preaching routinely perform miracles through simple prayers of faith, like I did. Does that prove that they carry a true message. No, even as St. Paul says in Philippians 1,* “Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; … What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.” * The point being that even if you miss the heart of what His Name is about, His Name remains above all. As is the case with me and the miracle that I performed, priests in the Catholic movement are not proven “holy” because they performed miracles.

Obedience to Christ’s Body is the same thing as obedience to Christ. When He was here in His human flesh, would you have disobeyed Him because He had the appearance of a “mere man”? Ask yourself that.

Again, you liken the Body of Christ to an organization - a physical thing. That is your error. This probably is because you have been taught or have figured out for yourself that the Kingdom of God is a *physical *thing as well. The same error as the Pharisees, I regret. The Kingdom of God is within you, IF you have been born again.

 

[mwok]

Do you mind sharing that untruth with those who have been victims of XXXXXX and have not received as much as an apology let alone compensation or having the perpetrators expelled? No my friend, I’m afraid your assertion above and reality do not tie up at all. In fact, God does not live in organizations. He lives in the hearts of people who have been born of the Spirit (refer John 3:3-5), and if you do not believe the Bible, then speak to someone whose life was really changed after having received a new spirit - these you may not see on the TV shows on US TV. For those who have been born again - as was the case with St. Paul - they can say “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” (Eph 3:20), and “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” (2 Cor. 5:17).

Again, your definition of the Church is that of an organization that employs officials to perform certain actions on its behalf. God does not live in organizations. It is indeed as you say, ‘baptism by the Church’, only that “Church” constitutes those (not ‘that’) who are born again (refer John 3:3-5), those who obey the word of God (refer 1 John 2:3) and those who are led by His Spirit (refer Romans 8:14).

To be technically correct - Jesus says that His word is truth (refer John 17:17). That’s why its good to read and follow what Jesus said before reading or following what any other person said. I wish not to perpetuate this example (note, it is not a comparison (phew!)), yet your assertion requires an answer. Of course we know it now. But you couldn’t tell the Nazis that before or during WWII. The point being that the majority of them blindly followed their leaders. If they had read their Bibles they may very well not have subscribed to what they ended up subscribing to (Note: Gerhard is a German name).

My friend, perhaps you are not looking at the world around you with sober eyes? Really. Do you really believe that miracles happen only in Catholic movement meetings? For, I have not only seen miracles take place outside of it, I have also performed a miracle of healing and have been the subject of the miracle of healing - both physical and otherwise. Here is the surprise, I am not ordained, I was not baptized in the Catholic movement, I am not a member of the Catholic organization, I do not use Holy Communion the way Catholics do (although I take care to “remember the Lord” when I do use communion as He said we should). And yet, I have seen more miracles happen outside of the Catholic movement than I have even** heard of the same taking place inside the Catholic movement world-wide**. What’s more, even the charismatics with their prosperity preaching routinely perform miracles through simple prayers of faith, like I did. Does that prove that they carry a true message. No, even as St. Paul says in Philippians 1,* “Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; … What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.” * The point being that even if you miss the heart of what His Name is about, His Name remains above all. As is the case with me and the miracle that I performed, priests in the Catholic movement are not proven “holy” because they performed miracles.

Again, you liken the Body of Christ to an organization - a physical thing. That is your error. This probably is because you have been taught or have figured out for yourself that the Kingdom of God is a *physical *thing as well. The same error as the Pharisees, I regret. The Kingdom of God is within you, IF you have been born again.

Of course Christs Church is physical! It is spiritual as well. Just look at what Jesus said about “being born again”, you must be born of water(physical) and the Spirit(spiritual).

 

[PRmerger]

That’s why its good to read and follow what Jesus said before reading or following what any other person said.

Here lies the great irony, gerhard.

The only way you know what “Jesus said” is because you are following what “another person” said (read: the Church).

For you would not know any other way that the words Jesus spoke, as you cited, in John 17:17 are indeed Jesus’ words, except that you are following what someone else discerned to be His Words.

[BIBLEDRB]John 17:16-18[/BIBLEDRB]