I Say Support What We Are Doing

[vern_humphrey]

Pete2:

Vern, let me be more explicit. I think George W. Bush lied to the country by telling us that there are WMD’s in Iraq, when he knew that he had shaky evidence at best.

Every intelligence agency in the world believed Saddam Hussain had WMD. Even Saddam himself believed it (but his WMD program managers were ripping him off.)

Pete2:

I think Bush mislead the people by trying to blur 9/11 and terrorism, with Iraq, two separate issues. I think this war was completely unfounded. This is my opinion, which I am entitled to, and I saw a poll on CNN this morning where 60% of Americans agree with me.

Marcus Aureilus said, “If ten thousand men agree on something, and know nothing about the matter, their agreement does’t matter.”

Pete2:

I was saying this before the war, and I’m saying it now. I have every right to say this, and I can say it as loudly as I want.

You have rights because other men purchased them for you at the cost of blood and sacrifice. You use that right to increase the sacrifices of those now in harm’s way.

You cannot escape the moral responsibility for your actions.

Pete2:

I voted against Bush twice. It’s my right to do so. There is nothing immoral about it. If you don’t agree with me, that is your right, and you can call me names or do whatever you want.

And that’s the crux of your issue. You don’t LIKE Bush, so it’s okay to encourage our enemies and add to the suffering and sacrifices of those in harm’s way.

Pete2:

You can call for “mass silence” of Americans, and if that’s your position, then fine. But I say that your position is un-American.[/quuote]

My position is that those who speak ought to speak responsibly and not allow their prejudices to put American troops at risk.

Pete2:

If you’re going to be nervous that a bunch of Sunni Iraqi insurgents living in caves are going to over-throw America, then I don’t really know what to tell you. It’s your right to be scared. As for me, I am part of this debate, and there is nothing you can say, and no names that you can call me, that will stop me.

Pete

I take it when you talk about others being scared, you yourself have an unblemished record of galantry in action?

In which war did you perform all your heroic deeds?

 

[Pete2]

vern humphrey:

Every intelligence agency in the world believed Saddam Hussain had WMD. Even Saddam himself believed it (but his WMD program managers were ripping him off.)

Marcus Aureilus said, “If ten thousand men agree on something, and know nothing about the matter, their agreement does’t matter.”

You have rights because other men purchased them for you at the cost of blood and sacrifice. You use that right to increase the sacrifices of those now in harm’s way.

You cannot escape the moral responsibility for your actions.

And that’s the crux of your issue. You don’t LIKE Bush, so it’s okay to encourage our enemies and add to the suffering and sacrifices of those in harm’s way.

My position is that those who speak ought to speak responsibly and not allow their prejudices to put American troops at risk.

I take it when you talk about others being scared, you yourself have an unblemished record of galantry in action?

In which war did you perform all your heroic deeds?

Vern, I understand from another post that you are a Vietnam veteran. I appreciate your service to the country. But you are not superior to anyone. My vote is exactly equal to yours. Whether or not I served in the military (which I didn’t) is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Let’s agree to disagree, shall we? See you at the polls.

Pete

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pete2:

Vern, I understand from another post that you are a Vietnam veteran. I appreciate your service to the country. But you are not superior to anyone.

Nor are you superior to anyone.

But you lack experience. When those who were the victims of this sort of vicious nonsense in previous wars tell you what it does, you ought to listen.

Especially when veterans from both ends of the political spectrum tell you.

Pete2:

My vote is exactly equal to yours.

Because other men made great sacrifices to ensure it is equal.

But this is not about voting. It’s about publicly giving encouragement to our enemies.

 

[Pete2]

vern humphrey:

Nor are you superior to anyone.

But you lack experience. When those who were the victims of this sort of vicious nonsense in previous wars tell you what it does, you ought to listen.

Especially when veterans from both ends of the political spectrum tell you.

Because other men made great sacrifices to ensure it is equal.

But this is not about voting. It’s about publicly giving encouragement to our enemies.

This is tiring. I dutifully pay my taxes, which paid your military salary. Without me working hard, participating in the growth of the US economy, supporting our government with my tax dollars, you would have had no job. I appreciate the sacrifice that soldiers make, but the decision to make that sacrifice is yours. I don’t owe you anything else, Vern.

My lack of military experience is irrelevant. Every citizen gets exactly 1 vote when they turn 18, and for better or for worse, that’s how we choose our representation in this country. And everyone’s got a right to speak their minds any time they want to.

If you want to be a soldier in the US army, you better get used to this fact of life that not everyone is going to support the mission, and everyone has a right to say what they think. I can understand that it is hard to swallow this kind of disagreement when you are out there with your life on the line. But the disagreement isn’t with the soldiers, it’s with the government. It’s what our country is all about, and I don’t see it changing, ever. If the enemy likes to see dissention in the US, then fine. Again, I don’t really think it’s going to matter, especially in the face of the awesome power that is the US military, paid for courtesy of the hard working taxpayers.

This is my last post on this thread. Nice debating with you, and everyone else. I offer you the last word on our discussion, I am not going to reply.

Pete

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pete2:

This is tiring.

Carrying a 90-lb pack is tiring, too.

Pete2:

I dutifully pay my taxes,

So did I

Pete2:

which paid your military salary. Without me working hard, participating in the growth of the US economy, supporting our government with my tax dollars, you would have had no job. I appreciate the sacrifice that soldiers make, but the decision to make that sacrifice is yours. I don’t owe you anything else, Vern.

Ah, the old “they chose to serve, so their lives are my toys” ploy.

Pete2:

My lack of military experience is irrelevant.

Not when you fail to realize the impact your actions have on those who served.

Pete2:

Every citizen gets exactly 1 vote when they turn 18, and for better or for worse, that’s how we choose our representation in this country.

Voting isn’t the issue here. Giving the enemy leave to hope that by killing more Americans they can bring about a poltical change in this country is.

Voting doesn’t kill American soldiers. Giving comfort to the enemy does.

Pete2:

And everyone’s got a right to speak their minds any time they want to.

And those who exercise that right irresponsibly, give comfort to the enemy, and encourage them to kill Americans cannot escape the moral responsibility for their acts.

Pete2:

If you want to be a soldier in the US army, you better get used to this fact of life that not everyone is going to support the mission, and everyone has a right to say what they think.

And those who exercise that right irresponsibly, give comfort to the enemy, and encourage them to kill Americans cannot escape the moral responsibility for their acts.

Pete2:

I can understand that it is hard to swallow this kind of disagreement when you are out there with your life on the line. But the disagreement isn’t with the soldiers,

It’s the solders who die when you give the enemy comfort.

Pete2:

it’s with the government. It’s what our country is all about, and I don’t see it changing, ever. If the enemy likes to see dissention in the US, then fine.

Fine for those who sit comfortably at home. Fatal for the men and women in the combat zone.

You can spin it any way you want – you are responsible for your words and actions.

 

[Stu]

vern humphrey:

You can spin it any way you want – you are responsible for your words and actions.

You mean you can’t have all of the rights with no accountability? Darn.

 

[gnjsdad]

vern humphrey:

In a free society, a truely free one, you would have responsible opinion.

“Responsible opinion”, being, I suppose, agreeing with you? Maybe you can shed some light on the nature of a “truly free” society in which everyone agrees with you.
vern humphrey:

Despite all the posturing, we ALL have freedom of speech. When you exercise yours irresponsibly, I have the freedom to call you on it. I have a right to tell the world exactly what you are doing.

And when you exercise yours recklesssly and maliciously, (according to you, merely expressing doubts about the justice or necessity of the Iraq War is “givng aid and comfort to the enemy”) I have the freedom to call you on it.
vern humphrey:

And, as one of those victimized by this sort of irresponsible, arrogant behavior in a previous war, I have an obligation to do it.

You are only entitled to speak for yourself. There are thousands of veterans who would disagree with you.

 

[juancross]

Everyone may have a member of a family in the past years connected with war,my father loved the comradery and frienship he found while serving.He lost two of his best friends in North Africa and became bitter and untrusting through this, his dislike for certain races showed in conservation i hope before he passes he can forgive.I commend people here for being patriotic and totally concerned about their loved citizens inolved in the gulf.This subject must be stirring many passions in the US .On ITN this morning programme Jane Fonda said support our forces use less oil.it doesnt matter who is right or who is wrong what matters is the victims and their families and if i offended anyone with any of my posts then for that i am truly sorry may God Bless America and her people. Juancross. PEACE TO ALL

 

[trailblazer]

Pete 2 !
What you are really saying is that all the LEADERS LIED TO US! Right? Certainly, you cannot signal out Bush! If Bush lied, so did the DEMOCRATS in Washington and governments from around the world. If you disagree with this, please **explain **so that people like myself can understand just how did only Bush lie to us and state your evidence.

You mention a right to speak your mind. Yeah! But, speaking comes with responsibility. Jane Fonda spoke her mind about Vietnam – IRREPONSIBLY – and hurt the US and its military, of which I was one. Speading lies about the president, the war, and cutting down the US – is irreponsible and hurts our nation and its military.

You say that you voted against Bush twice. That there was nothing wrong with it. Wrong! Voting against Bush was enabling a person to get into office who was against 4 of the 5 Catholic non-negotiable items, the most important of which is abortion. Such a vote, as articulated by bishops and even Pope Benedict XVI, is against God / faith / Catholicism! How can you say that you are against war because of deaths, when you incourage more deaths through abortion here in the US than all the wars together!

In Christ,
Bob

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ani Ibi:

you can bellow as loud as you want: I am not listening.

Pete2:

That is your right as a citizen of the USA! Have a nice day, and God Bless America!Pete

That is my right as a citizen of Canada. Have a nice day and God Bless America! Ani.

By the way some people have claimed that 9-11 had nothing to do with Iraq. Wrong. The pretexts for the invasion of Iraq may have been questionable or fuzzy, but Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, and so on are all one ball of wax. 9-11 made it clear to the American people (regardless of what the administration may or may not have thought) what had to be done. And if Bush did not step up to the plate, then the American people would have found someone else to lead them; sheesh they would have sent their home-made militia to get the job done.

Why do I say that? Maybe you need to see yourselves through a foreigner’s eyes. My experience of Americans through studying them at university, reading, and spending a fair amount of time south of the border (49th parallel) is that they are a very generous people. The 9-11 crowd took advantage of American hospitality (and freedom) to crash three planes into major American buildings causing enormous loss of innocent lives. This was not only an act of war but it lacked honour. The mistake was that it was an act against the people themselves and they will never lose sight of that reality.

People have been going on an on about Free Speech. Free Speech has limits on it. No one’s freedom to speak is absolute. The understanding is that people will speak in an informed manner, particularly as respects who is friend and who is foe.

I note that Hanoi Jane hasn’t stopped at all. She claims to have apologized but she is unrepentant, merely using her apology for her material cooperation with the enemy during the Nam era as a springboard for material cooperation with the enemy during the Iraq era. Likely she wants to run for office.

 

[vern_humphrey]

“Responsible opinion”, being, I suppose, agreeing with you? Maybe you can shed some light on the nature of a “truly free” society in which everyone agrees with you.

The problem, me lad, with playing the fool is that people may cme to think that you are one.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

gnjsdad:

And when you exercise yours recklesssly and maliciously, (according to you, merely expressing doubts about the justice or necessity of the Iraq War is “givng aid and comfort to the enemy”) I have the freedom to call you on it.

Without regard to the men and women who daily lay their lives on the line for your benefit.

"You are only entitled to speak for yourself. There are thousands of veterans who would disagree with you.

Are you one of them?

 

[HagiaSophia]

juancross:

.On ITN this morning programme Jane Fonda said support our forces use less oil.

I trust she was riding the bus to and from the interview.

 

[juancross]

HagiaSophia:

I trust she was riding the bus to and from the interview.

Your guess is as good as mine,red buses in London at the moment are safer than Bagdad ones

 

[trailblazer]

Pete 2: You cannot support your position that President Bush knew no WMDs. Absolutely NO EVIDENCE; whereas, evidence to the contrary has been given in this and other threads. If he lied, then so did vertually all American leaders, Democrat and Republican, as well as other governments. If you cannot support your claim with evidence, you are misleading others. Deception is sinful!

Bob

 

[gilliam]

“Whoever does not have the stomach for this fight, let him depart. Give him money to speed his departure since we wish not to die in that mans company. Whoever lives past today and comes home safely wiil rouse himself every year on this day, show his neighbor his scars, and tell embellished stories of all their great feats of battle. These stories will teach his son, and from this day until the end of the world we shall be remembered. We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for who has shed his blood with me shall be my brother. And those men afraid to go will think themselves lesser men as they hear of how we fought and died together.” --Shakespeare’s Henry V

hat tip

 

[juancross]

My sons will be told you cant have liberty and freedom without the law of love for your brothers and sisters.PEACE TO ALL
God Bless

 

[gilliam]

juancross:

My sons will be told you cant have liberty and freedom without the law of love for your brothers and sisters.PEACE TO ALL
God Bless

You can definately love your brothers and sisters and fight to keep them free and keep them from terrorits. You should read this blog by a soldier in Iraq.

He is a dedicated Christian. His Christian oriented blog is here:
gladmanly.blogspot.com/

His general news blog is here:
dadmanly.blogspot.com/

 

[juancross]

gilliam:

You can definately love your brothers and sisters and fight to keep them free and keep them from terrorits. You should read this blog by a soldier in Iraq.

He is a dedicated Christian. His Christian oriented blog is here:
gladmanly.blogspot.com/

His general news blog is here:
dadmanly.blogspot.com/

Thankyou, i shall also pray.
God Bless

 

[Robret_Bay]

You can definately love your brothers and sisters and fight to keep them free and keep them from terrorits. You should read this blog by a soldier in Iraq.

He is a dedicated Christian. His Christian oriented blog is here:
gladmanly.blogspot.com/

His general news blog is here:
dadmanly.blogspot.com/

We need to advance Christianity especially Catholicism evenn if by the sword if necessary.
Souls are at stake, if the reject The Church we can send them to their eternal punishment a little sooner than they had planned!