I strongly suggest that you prove purgatory before preaching it.

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VociMike said:
Yeah, it’s hard to know how to proceed when they say that [that they are purified of sin and any inclination to sin]. :eek:
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Actually it is not an uncommon position. How many reasonably practising Catholics don’t go to confession on those grounds?
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
Actually it is not an uncommon position. How many reasonably practising Catholics don’t go to confession on those grounds?
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Not many I don’t think. None that I have heard. Most I would suggest are of the I-only-need-to-go-for-mortal-sin category. That is, the idea that while I am not completely sin-free or with no inclination to sin, I’m good enough to keep going to the Sacraments. Not a very good attitude I’ll grant, but not quite the I would go to Heaven right now if I died attitude.

Scott
 
myfavoritmartin said:
My beliefs are based on spirit and truth, purgatory stands up to neither, in** MY opinion**
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This is a semantically empty sentence. A thing does not “stand up” to something like spirit and truth.
myfavoritmartin said:
The part of me that is going to heaven is…
You see we are all made up of soul, spirit, and flesh. In my soul is where Christ dwells…You saying HIS dying on the cross and being risen was insufficeint to cleanse my soul?
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Do you believe that we, as humans, are a spirit/body composite? If one is dirty, the whole is dirty.
 
There was a time when I questioned the idea of Purgatory.
One day at prayer group, a woman asked me why we, as members of the Catholic Church, pray for the souls of those in purgatory.
The words, “Because they are alive,” came out of my mouth. While I may be questioned about the reality of my experience, I do longer question the reality of Purgatory.
Often we hear about heaven and hell. Is a young child who disobeys his/her parent punished in the same manner or to the same extent as a teenager who rebelliously stays out past curfew to party with his/her friends?
God wants us in heaven with him. Nothing impure can enter heaven. His grace helps purify and prepare us for heaven.
 
I’d like to see Mr. Believer prove his interpretation of scripture is identical to that of the Twelve Apostles before preaching it.

Apostolic tradition trumps man-made tradition.
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
Actually it is not an uncommon position. How many reasonably practising Catholics don’t go to confession on those grounds?
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What, that they don’t sin and have no inclination to sin?

Only the ones who don’t even believe in the notion of sin, I’d guess. Which isn’t reasonable belief for a Catholic.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I personally am not a big fan of purgatory debates as I get a little overly passionate about them as they seem to in a way deny the atoning nature of Christ shed blood on the cross.
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Not at all. For without that atonement, we would all be condemned for all eternity. Unlike Hell, Purgatory is a place of grace, where we are purified for our entry into heaven.

When you were a child, did you ever knock over a glass of milk and make a mess? Of course, our mothers forgave us for these little accidents all the time, even ones we did on purpose in throwing a temper tantrum, I’d imagine. But did the mess it made magically disappear as soon as the offense was forgiven? Or did somebody still have to clean it up? Remember, God is still a God of justice. (I trust you will have no difficulty verifying this in Scripture.)

Of course, there is no tangible proof I can offer, just as I cannot prove there is even a God. But as for me, it is my intention to continue doing my best to make amends for my sins in this life lest I find myself in Purgatory cleaning up the messes right up to the end of time.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I personally am not a big fan of purgatory debates as I get a little overly passionate about them as they seem to in a way deny the atoning nature of Christ shed blood on the cross.
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I presume you say this because you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus is totally sufficient to pay for all the sin, and effects of sin, both temporal and eternal. I agree with you. However, though His sacrifice is sufficient, the merits of it are not always applied the same way.

Take for example, a young teen such as the 15 year old here who got pregnant. She repented of the sin of fornication, and chose not to add to her sins by having an abortion, as much as she would have liked to get rid of the baby.

God did not “take” the baby as she asked (miscarriage). She had to go through the process of pregnancy, labor through having the baby, then the pain of giving the child up for adoption. God forgave her sins, but she still endured the temporal punishment (consequences) of her wrong choices.

We see a similar example in the thief on the cross. Jesus could have spared him the suffering and having his legs broken. He could have taken him immediately upon his confession of faith or when He gave up His spirit. He did not. he allowed him to suffer the consequence of his choice. This is temporal punishment for sin.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I personally am not a big fan of purgatory debates as I get a little overly passionate about them as they seem to in a way deny the atoning nature of Christ shed blood on the cross.
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I presume you say this because you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus is totally sufficient to pay for all the sin, and effects of sin, both temporal and eternal. I agree with you. However, though His sacrifice is sufficient, the merits of it are not always applied the same way.

Take for example, a young teen such as the 15 year old here who got pregnant. She repented of the sin of fornication, and chose not to add to her sins by having an abortion, as much as she would have liked to get rid of the baby.

God did not “take” the baby as she asked (miscarriage). She had to go through the process of pregnancy, labor through having the baby, then the pain of giving the child up for adoption. God forgave her sins, but she still endured the temporal punishment (consequences) of her wrong choices.

We see a similar example in the thief on the cross. Jesus could have spared him the suffering and having his legs broken. He could have taken him immediately upon his confession of faith or when He gave up His spirit. He did not. he allowed him to suffer the consequence of his choice. This is temporal punishment for sin.
 
BobCatholic said:
I’d like to see Mr. Believer prove his interpretation of scripture is identical to that of the Twelve Apostles before preaching it.

Apostolic tradition trumps man-made tradition.
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I think believers is under the impression that all the important elements of apostolic tradition were committed to writing, and are present in the NT.
Zachary said:
if you spill milk you still have to clean it up
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Didn;t you know? Jesus will send 12 legions of angels with mop buckets! 😉 You don’t have to do a THING to contribute to your own salvation!
 
Either there is a purgatory or there isn’t. It doesn’t require our belief to exist. If you choose to believe that there isn’t a purgatory, odds are you’ll be there long enough to know for sure it exists. On the other hand, it seems like those who are convinced of purgatory in this life might end up being less personally familiar with it. Me, I don’t think I’m going to require proof, and I am grateful for the opportunity to experience any temporal punishment for my sins in this life because I know I don’t want to wait any longer than need be to meet my Lord. 🙂
 
VociMike said:
What, that they don’t sin and have no inclination to sin?

Only the ones who don’t even believe in the notion of sin, I’d guess. Which isn’t reasonable belief for a Catholic.
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If they sin, the devil made them do it! 😉
 
VociMike said:
What, that they don’t sin and have no inclination to sin?

Only the ones who don’t even believe in the notion of sin, I’d guess. Which isn’t reasonable belief for a Catholic.
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If they sin, the devil made them do it! 😉
 
guanophore said:
I think believers is under the impression that all the important elements of apostolic tradition were committed to writing, and are present in the NT.
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Unfortunately, this is not in the Bible. But I’ll see if believer will post the Bible verses that say this.

Otherwise, I’ll just assume it is one of the many protestant man-made tradtitions.
 
Lampo said:
Those who don’t believe in purgatory: Allow me to ask this:
  1. Are you perfect now?
  2. Will you be perfect in Heaven?
If you answered no, then yes; what changed?
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I agree that purgatory exists…but my confusion comes in where if Jesus died for us–why on earth would God expect us to be perfect? Only His son is. And, by Jesus dying, and offering us the Sacrament of Confession, and repentance…why would there be a need for additional cleansing? Was purgatory in existence prior to Jesus’ birth? If so…why was Jesus’ death necessary for our salvation?
 
whatevergirl said:
I agree that purgatory exists…but my confusion comes in where if Jesus died for us–why on earth would God expect us to be perfect? Only His son is. And, by Jesus dying, and offering us the Sacrament of Confession, and repentance…why would there be a need for additional cleansing? Was purgatory in existence prior to Jesus’ birth? If so…why was Jesus’ death necessary for our salvation?
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That passage is one that I wonder what Jesus really meant. Like you said only God is perfect so why would he say we have to be perfect. Just as there is no direct translation from Latin to English neither is there for Aramaic. So what exactly Jesus said and in what context is something I don’t know.

Purgatory is about final restitution. When a Priest gives a penance its usually small enough for us to do in a small way.

Purgatory, as far as I know was in existence prior to Jesus birth. Jesus death was necessary for our salvation because of the Sin of Adam and Eve was so great.
 
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