I strongly suggest that you prove purgatory before preaching it.

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That passage is one that I wonder what Jesus really meant. Like you said only God is perfect so why would he say we have to be perfect. Just as there is no direct translation from Latin to English neither is there for Aramaic. So what exactly Jesus said and in what context is something I don’t know.

Purgatory is about final restitution. When a Priest gives a penance its usually small enough for us to do in a small way.

Purgatory, as far as I know was in existence prior to Jesus birth. Jesus death was necessary for our salvation because of the Sin of Adam and Eve was so great.
but why would a priest knowing there exists purgatory, not give us ‘enough’ of a penance so as to avoid purgatory? It doesn’t sound like it’s avoidable for anyone really…even saints thought they would go there…my local priest ‘prays’ that he’ll go there. If we knew to do enough penance…wouldn’t we, to avoid purgatory? I’m confused again.😦
 
I suspect that much of the difficulty that Protestants have with the idea of Purgatory stems directly from their theology of justification. It may be that they don’t really believe that “nothing impure can enter heaven.”

If our nature is totally corrupt, then real sanctification is impossible. All that Jesus can do is cover up our sins so that the Father does not see them. He then declares us legally justified. But underneath, our sins and our corrupt nature are still there.

In this view, purgatory becomes unnecessary. What’s the point of trying to purify that which cannot ever be purified?

Catholic theology sees human nature as fallen but not totally corrupt. By incorporating ourselves into Christ, we receive sanctifying grace–grace which makes us holy by allowing us to share in God’s holiness. In this theology, impurity matters, because our attachments to sin hinder our becoming like Christ. Sins are forgiven, but sinful inclinations remain. Because we believe that nothing impure can enter heaven, we believe that those imperfections will be burned up like straw as we approach the infinite goodness of God.
 
I agree that purgatory exists…but my confusion comes in where if Jesus died for us–why on earth would God expect us to be perfect? Only His son is. And, by Jesus dying, and offering us the Sacrament of Confession, and repentance…why would there be a need for additional cleansing? Was purgatory in existence prior to Jesus’ birth? If so…why was Jesus’ death necessary for our salvation?
Purgatory is not for forgiveness of sin. If your sins are not forgiven, you do not get to Purgatory. Purgatory is where we pay any remaining temporal debt. The God of the OT is a just God. God has not changed, will not change, and can never change, for He is already both perfect and infinite. He is still a just God. The temporal debt of our sins must be paid. The Sacrament of Confession is for relief from the eternal consequences of our sin, namely Hell, not the temporal debt.

Personal penance (penance we choose to do, not what we are assigned), effort to make amends for our wrongs, indulgenced devotionals (such as the Rosary, The Way of the Cross, adoration, etc.), the seven corporal works of mercy, the spiritual works of mercy, etc. are all ways we can work toward repaying our temporal debt in this life. That which we fail to repay here, we will repay there. God’s justice will be served, in this life, or the next.
 
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t the doctrine of purgatory come from the books of Maccabees? This might be one point of departure for protestants since they removed these books from the Canon and now accuse the Catholic Church of adding books to the Bible. Hmmmm… interesting logic there… to remove scripture because you don’t “agree” with it and then accuse the Church of fabricating the doctrine that was contained within it. Moves like that would make Congress blush!
 
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t the doctrine of purgatory come from the books of Maccabees?
Yes, the book of Maccabees is used to demonstrate praying for the dead. However, Catholics also consider this passage from St. Paul to be a reference to the purifications of purgatory:

1 Corinthians 3:14–15: “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
 
Jesus said “You will not get out of that prison until you have paid the final penny.”

If you have a problem with that prison take it up with Jesus!
 
does it really matter if there is or is not a Purgatory in regards to how you should want to live your life? Do people not want to believe in Purgatory so that they can sin all they want and still go to Heaven? If the alternative is Hell I would be glad there is a Purgatory. However, if there is no Purgatory, why should that change how people should want to live their lives?
 
I think C.S. Lewis said it best in Mere Christianity, “the soul demands Purgatory”.

Smart Man.😉
 
having grown up protestant, i’ve considered the idea of purgatory quite a bit lately. the ironic thing is that most all protestants believe in a “purging towards purification” right after death…they just don’t call it “purgatory”.

ask a protestant if they can get into heaven without being “perfect”. most will say, “no”.

so how do you become “perfect”, having all the stains and effects of sin removed from your soul?

they would usually say it happens at the moment of death (though they won’t be able to find a scripture to support that notion).

then ask them how their idea differs from purgatory…

(i agree with C. S. Lewis)
 
Is it just me or did the original protestant that brought this up never respond back in this thread to any of these posts?
 
I agree that purgatory exists…but my confusion comes in where if Jesus died for us–why on earth would God expect us to be perfect? Only His son is. And, by Jesus dying, and offering us the Sacrament of Confession, and repentance…why would there be a need for additional cleansing? Was purgatory in existence prior to Jesus’ birth? If so…why was Jesus’ death necessary for our salvation?
It’s not like God has some unreasonable demand that we be perfect or he is going to make us suffer, it’s that the way to perfection is suffering. Jesus showed us that. God himself became man and in his life here with us, faced the same temptations that we face, and denied himself. Although he was God and blameless, he faced a torturous, agonizing, and humiliating death for us so that we could obtain salvation. Did he tell his followers that because they believed in him that their salavation was now assured? No! This is what he told them as the time of his death approached (From Mark 8):

34Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life[c] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

We can experience purgatory here on earth by embracing our cross. Think about the example of the saints. By their suffering and sacrifices in this life, they died ready for union with God. Most of us are somewhat reluctant to embrace the crosses that we encounter. It can be difficult to deny ourselves when we are so attached to a particular sin.

God is merciful though. He does not expect that we will be perfect. Think about what it will be like when we die, when we come face to face with the perfection and majesty of God himself. How unworthy we will feel, how aware we will become of all of our sins and imperfections. It will be quite painful for a sinner to be so close to God, yet to know that their sins are holding them back from being with him. It will be painful too to let go of those sins that we might have clung too tightly to in this life. Think about the soul who never sacrificed or lovingly suffered for others in this life. How unprepared and unwilling will they be for purgatory if it means giving up the sins they hold too dearly. There are people in this world who scoff at Christians for all they “can’t” do. These are people who value their sins more than they do their relationship with God and the state of their eternal soul. We often hear it said that hell is a choice and wonder who would choose it. Some souls do though.

For the rest of us, there is purgatory. It’s one final chance to choose the cross, to suffer, to let go of our desires for that which is not God, and to prepare ourself for union with God. That suffering will bring us to perfection. We should be thankful for all of the many opportunities we are given to suffer, because Jesus has shown us it is the way to our salvation.
 
Jesus said “You will not get out of that prison until you have paid the final penny.”

If you have a problem with that prison take it up with Jesus!
that is a very simple way of spelling it out–thank YOU!😃
 
Didn;t you know? Jesus will send 12 legions of angels with mop buckets! 😉 You don’t have to do a THING to contribute to your own salvation!

What about the Holy Scripture that says, “work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling”? Jesus’ atonement is sufficient to merit us Heaven by grace through faith. However, we are to work it out. There’s no such thing in Holy Scripture that allows for “easy believeism”. We first believe (faith) in His work on Calvary to “save” us, but after this we are also to continue to live holy lives. Our works can condemn us or our works can save us. None of us is perfect. If we say we have no sin, then the truth is not in us. He sets us on our way. We choose to continue on the path. We are saved by His work, but we must then atone for our unrighteousnesses. Purgatory is where we can make final restitutions (in a sense).
 
Is it just me or did the original protestant that brought this up never respond back in this thread to any of these posts?
I just PMd him a link to this thread. It appears that he’s been off in NCR arguing about the latest document released from the CDF about non-Catholic “churches” and also against the Real Presence in the Eucharist.🤷
 
Jesus said “You will not get out of that prison until you have paid the final penny.”

If you have a problem with that prison take it up with Jesus!
The HS just brought this too my mind…

Jesus’ point here was that you will never pay it. Therefore never get out.
 
:rolleyes: I’m glad I don’t have to rely on such personal revelations for correct doctrine.😛
Right. It reduces Christianity to ideological bluster. “We’ve got the Holy Spirit! Yes we do! We’ve got the Holy Spirit! How about YOU!?” And so on.

Scott
 
I guess posting the thread was “Hit and run theology”
Hi Gene! (Great station your run there BTW. May God prosper it and bless it!)

Actually, believers didn’t open the thread…his comment was quoted by a Catholic to open the new thread. I don’t know why he hasn’t bothered to post on it in support of his position and to make sure that he’s seen it I PMd him the link. I guess we’ll see.🤷
 
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