And the inconsistency of the beliefs that that brings into being is one of the very reasons that I cannot accept Sola Scriptura as a fundamental doctrine. The fruit is a confusing disaster. How can that be from the Holy Spirit?:whacky:
I think he evidence for the Trinity in the scriptures is a few light years ahead of what we find that supposedly supports a belief in purgatory.
I disagree. Since both are implied Biblical teachings, I’d assert that the evidence is about equal.
I’m pretty sure Fr. Pacwa admitted that the Trinity could be proven from scripture alone in one of his debates on sola scriptura.
So? I can assert that same thing concerning Purgatory.
If you can show me the word “trinity” in the Word of God, then you might have a leg to stand on with that…
(Have you ever sought to make your case for the trinity to a Jehovah’s Witness? If so I suspect you had very little success…)I would not open such a thread as the point is not the amount of scripture but that both doctrines are implied in scripture but neither is expressed. Such a thread would ultimately prove nothing.
Jesus’ atonement on the cross was to redeem us, not to wipe away all sin of all mankind, otherwise all who have lived prior and after Jesus would have a free ticket to heaven. Jesus died so that we could again be in heaven with God and establish again mans relationship with God. Those Christians who think the false idea that Jesus’ atonement means they are allowed to sin because Jesus did it all on the cross are also fooling themselves, because every sin has consequences, some eternal and all temporal. Purgatory doesn’t deny nor contradict the atoning nature of Christ’s sacrifice it fulfills it for all of us who accept and trust in Jesus still sin and harbor unrepentant sin up to our death because we haven’t completely applied Christ into every portion of their lives, our soul, so that He completely consumes every portion, every minute, everyday of every thought, thus it is US who who are lacking in our sufferings with Christ’s sacrifice (Col 1:24) NOT Jesus, He did it perfectly.
Maybe because in my previous post I said, rather clearly,
Which was in reply to a discussion where toaslan pointed out that the word “Trinity” wasn’t found in the scriptures.
so why would I or any knowledgeable Christian want to engage you in a debate where you are free to make things up as you go?Excuse me? Just where do you get off referring to my beliefs as “silly traditions”. I don’t appreciate that a bit, and it violates the rules you agreed to when you chose to post here at CAF.
I’ve noticed that a portion of Catholics here at CAF are very hypocritical. It seems to be the common belief that you guys can pretty much say anything you want to and cry foul when it’s directed back at you.
Our "silly traditions’ gave you the Bible, which your namesake’s mentor proceeded to butcher while claiming his mouth was Christ’s own.
See, this is what I was referring to when I have mentioned the catholics on this board being very hypocritical.
Of course no one will call you out on this, because, well…you guys seem to turn a blind eye to it, unless it’s directed at a fellow catholic.
I “blessed well better”? What happens if I don’t “blessed well better”?Already did. But I never called your beliefs silly or any such disrespect. I deal with facts…I deal with the fact that there is no valid biblical basis for SS and I state a logical and factual case for it. I do not make disrespectful comments concerning other’s beliefs.
There is no hypocrisy in my comments. I have no problem with those who disagree, but you blessed well better be able to make your case because if you can’t (and so far I haven’t seen you do so) support your assertions with scripture and historical facts, then you’re just out of luck.
But don’t tell me that a valid argument is hypocritical.
Precisely. We can argue about what is the correct interpretation of scripture until the cows come home, but if we honestly look to who God allowed to recognize what were the scriptures, that being Catholic Bishops we can reasonably know through eclessial history who it is has the final say on their meaning.If you can show me the word “trinity” in the Word of God, then you might have a leg to stand on with that…
rules and endeavor to prove anything by the errant fundamental doctrine of “Scripture Alone”, AKA Sola Scriptura? That fundamentally flawed teaching is the basis for virtually every error of modern n-C teaching.
We Catholics uses both scripture and Tradition, you attack and scoff at Tradition because it fails to give you evidence of your beliefs prior to the reformation. Deductive reasoning is what you are lackin since you avoid salvific Christian history prior to the reformation which shows an established authoratitive church, one formed by Christ which recognized the canon, defined the Trinity, and preserved God’s word.
I didn’t say that our salvation is guaranteed based on my belief in Christ’s death on the cross. But, I thank you for your explanation. My confusion came in more with the idea of needing purgatory, if we are absolved of our sins during Confession on earth, AND by Jesus’ death on the cross. But, the thing that I’ve learned is that purgatory is a cleansing…a purification…further…of where we need to be when entering Heaven.
Right. In the sacrament of confession we are most certainly forgiven of our sins, but we do not walk out of confession with no further inclination to sin. We are forgiven, but not perfected. And we must be perfected to enter heaven.
thanks mike–I understand…maybe I just fear purgatory.
Possibly why I ask so many questions about it.