I strongly suggest that you prove purgatory before preaching it.

[believers]

Ok… I don’t have much time this week but I’ll do my best to reply.

I’ll start by saying that purgatory is a very dangerous belief. There’s no way this place can exist. You must believe that you are baptized into His death and are risen WITH Him in His resurrection. If you don’t believe you are risen WITH Him in His resurrection, your preaching and faith are vain and you are still in your sins when you die. The Bible says, the wages for sin is death.

Please note that believing in the resurrection of the dead and believing you are risen WITH Christ are not the same. Even Muslims believe in a resurrection onto Paradise.

1Cr 15:12
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
(insert the RCC purgatory theory)

1Cr 15:13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1Cr 15:14
And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

1Cr 15:15
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1Cr 15:16
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1Cr 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1Cr 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Cr 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Cr 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Cr 15:21
For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

---

Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us TOGETHER WITH CHRIST, (by grace ye are saved

Eph 2:6
And hath raised [us] up TOGETHER, and made [us] sit TOGETHER in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

---

Col 3:1
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:2
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

 

[believers]

Strive for perfect love. Love everyone, including your enemies, with equal love for all… so you can have boldness when you appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

1Jo 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jo 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

You will appear before the judgment Seat of Christ. Be ready.

Rom 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:11
For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rom 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Purgatory is believed on faith. It needs no other foundation, for only faith in God the Revealer (Who is to be met with in Jesus Christ) is strong enough to do what faith is equipped to do - reason is not. To expect reason, of all things, to sustain the full weight of God’s truth is as mad as to expect a mountain to balance upon a pin. Reason has its uses, but sounding the depths of the wisdom of God is not one of them. God either reveals His truth (most adequately of all, in Christ); or He does not reveal it at all; in no way can man ascend to heaven to get it - much less can we come to it by reason.​

People who expect Christian beliefs to be proved are adopting a rationalist attitude, which is absolutely opposed to faith. Rationalism as a foundation for belief is as healthy as swallowing a dose of cyanide. Jesus rebuked those who wanted proof, & sharply. Rationalism is an immoral foundation for what God has revealed - to ask for proof of what is revealed, is to call a God a liar. If that is not utterly contrary to faith in Jesus Christ Whom He has sent, then nothing is. There was none of this rubbish about “proof” when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Messiah - or when Jesus was asked to prove the truth of His mission by working a sign.

Attempting a proof is worthless for many reasons - not least because the rebelliousness & hard-heartedness & wickedness in human nature is more than equal to finding reasons not to believe. Only faith can overcome lack of faith - & only God can grant faith.

So we can’t prove that our beliefs are true. If we could, that would prove only they were false - which is paradoxical, but true; for it would imply that they had their origin with man & not with God; philosophies can do that - but no philosophy needs revelation. Proof is the last thing that any Christian doctrine needs, because a proof of a Christian doctrine that rested on something as wretchedly inadequate as human reason would have a ridiculous foundation for a truth revealed by God; human reason is too weak to bear so great a weight. We believe because God has revealed these things - and that is worth more than all the “proofs” in the world.

As for the verses quoted in the first post, none of them have anything to do with Purgatory.

 

[believers]

Purgatory is believed on faith. It needs no other foundation, for only faith in God the Revealer (Who is to be met with in Jesus Christ) is strong enough to do what faith is equipped to do - reason is not. To expect reason, of all things, to sustain the full weight of God’s truth is as mad as to expect a mountain to balance upon a pin. Reason has its uses, but sounding the depths of the wisdom of God is not one of them. God either reveals His truth (most adequately of all, in Christ); or He does not reveal it at all; in no way can man ascend to heaven to get it - much less can we come to it by reason.​

People who expect Christian beliefs to be proved are adopting a rationalist attitude, which is absolutely opposed to faith. Rationalism as a foundation for belief is as healthy as swallowing a dose of cyanide. Jesus rebuked those who wanted proof, & sharply. Rationalism is an immoral foundation for what God has revealed - to ask for proof of what is revealed, is to call a God a liar. If that is not utterly contrary to faith in Jesus Christ Whom He has sent, then nothing is. There was none of this rubbish about “proof” when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Messiah - or when Jesus was asked to prove the truth of His mission by working a sign.

Attempting a proof is worthless for many reasons - not least because the rebelliousness & hard-heartedness & wickedness in human nature is more than equal to finding reasons not to believe. Only faith can overcome lack of faith - & only God can grant faith.

So we can’t prove that our beliefs are true. If we could, that would prove only they were false - which is paradoxical, but true; for it would imply that they had their origin with man & not with God; philosophies can do that - but no philosophy needs revelation. Proof is the last thing that any Christian doctrine needs, because a proof of a Christian doctrine that rested on something as wretchedly inadequate as human reason would have a ridiculous foundation for a truth revealed by God; human reason is too weak to bear so great a weight. We believe because God has revealed these things - and that is worth more than all the “proofs” in the world.

The Word of God MUST be your guide. It is the light onto your path.

1Th 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Psa 119:105
Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

 

[JimG]

As for the verses quoted in the first post, none of them have anything to do with Purgatory.

I was just thinking the same thing. Nice quotes. But what have they got to do with purgatory?

Everyone who gets to purgatory is saved and is bound for heaven.

 

[guanophore]

I’ll start by saying that purgatory is a very dangerous belief. There’s no way this place can exist.

It is not really a “place” believers. It is a “state” that exists outside of time and space as we know it.

You must believe that you are baptized into His death and are risen WITH Him in His resurrection. If you don’t believe you are risen WITH Him in His resurrection, your preaching and faith are vain and you are still in your sins when you die. The Bible says, the wages for sin is death.

This is an entirely Catholic teaching, believers, but the only relevance it has to purgatory is that only those who are born again will experience any purging upon death.

1Cr 15:12
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
(insert the RCC purgatory theory)

We don’t “insert” theories into scripture, believers. It is not considered proper exegesis.

Purgatory does not “negate” resurrection. On the contrary, it is FOR the resurrection.

1Cr 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Purgatory does not mean Jesus was not raised either. However, he did not require purging, being that He was without sin.

1Cr 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Cr 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Cr 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

This is why we believe in the communion of saints, because we believe they are in heaven with the Lord. This is why we ask their intercession.

Eph 2:6
And hath raised [us] up TOGETHER, and made [us] sit TOGETHER in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Positionally we are raised, when we were baptized. However, there is a long trek (for most of us) to become perfected. Our inheritance is kept for us in heaven, until we acquire posession of it. Since we know that nothing unclean can enter heaven, we also know that we shall be purged before arriving there.

 

[guanophore]

The Word of God MUST be your guide. It is the light onto your path.

1Th 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Psa 119:105
Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

The Word of God is our guide, believers. We recognize Him in the Breaking of the Bread. He has expressed himself in the Sacred Traditions and the Holy writings. He has promised that He will not allow His church to fall into error.

 

[Eileen_T]

The tombs of the early Christians in the catacombs at Rome often are inscribed with a request, made in the name of the dead member of the faithful, to pray for his or her eternal rest and peace.

This has been the practice since apostolic times as is evidenced in the writings of the Early Church Fathers. The earliest liturgies had prayers for the dead.

Tertullian, in “De corona militis” mentions prayers for the dead as an Apostolic ordinance. It was not just recommended, it was regarded as a duty.

believers:

I’ll start by saying that purgatory is a very dangerous belief. There’s no way this place can exist.

Since all prayer is directed to God, praying for the repose of someone’s soul can not be “dangerous”.

However, if I am wrong, all I have done is toI have spent time in prayer. If you are wrong, the souls of good non-Catholic Christians are languishing in Purgatory with no-one, except maybe some Cathlic friends, to pray for their release into eternal Glory.

 

[jcanfield]

Jesus said “You will not get out of that prison until you have paid the final penny.”

If you have a problem with that prison take it up with Jesus!

What gospel and verse are you quoting please?

 

[contramundum7]

My beliefs are based on spirit and truth, purgatory stands up to neither, in** MY opinion**

Does it stand up to logic?

It is not logical to believe that a person who devotes his whole life to God & doing right should, at death, go to the exact same place as a person who has committed every sin in the book, yet repents at the last minute.

It is God’s mercy that says both can get into Heaven… It is his justice (& he is perfectly just) that says the one with many ugly stains from sin on his soul needs to be purged…

Would you work on your car all day, get all greasy and grimy - and then go meet your date, the one you say you are in love with - without showering and changing clothes??

 

[jcanfield]

I disagree. Since both are implied Biblical teachings, I’d assert that the evidence is about equal.

Gen 1-26 speaks of “Let Us make man” that’s two.
And John 1:32 you have the God the Father - The Son ( Jesus) and the Dove - The holy Spirit
Show me implied purgatory in scripture? . Its a simple word for a word search… It is a lot easier to find in UNINSPIRED writing of man…
finally,
Mat 16:23
(23) Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men.
I’ll follow God’s Holy Inspired Word to Salvation any day.
On Judgement day you will have the chance to identify all those that you have chosen to follow - abandoning the word of God for the meaningless words of men.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

 

[Linnyo]

Guan - is it really worth arguing about because to me, it just isn’t and it just makes you appear angry and annoyed because others don’t all believe the same as you? At the end of the day, we’ll all find out. It isn’t exactly a condition for entry into heaven - getting everything right first time. As long as we believe that Christ died for our sins and we are doing our best to follow His Word.

 

[Caldera]

So, the Old Testament God (creator) of the world who could make sins “white as snow” as a spirit (for those he cared about) decided to enter into the flesh to die for the “SINS OF THE WORLD” and show people “the way”, (even though he did it FOR US himself) by suffering horrifically on the cross as the perfect sacrifice so everyone could join w/ him in his glorious heavenly kingdom when they die… while his Church tells us we have to follow in his footsteps too with sufferings/persecutions in ways that he did, while condemning those who don’t/won’t/can’t do it?

Why does this seem like a contradiction?

 

[anthony022071]

1st Letter of Peter 3,18-20:

He was put to death in the flesh,but made alive in spirit,in which he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison,who in former times did not obey…

Luke 5,25-26: “Come to terms quickly with you accuser while you are on your way to court with him,or your accuser may hand you over to the judge,and the judge may hand you over to the prison guard,and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you,you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.”

 

[jcanfield]

Isa 55:8
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

God didn’t ask our opinion about His plan of salvation. Our logic says - - partial obedience will (should) be okay. . .

From the beginning - - Able got it right - Cain got it wrong. God didn’t give Cain an “Attay Boy . … Nice try”… He said Able’s sacrifice was righteous - - Cain’s was not… His failed attempt got him nothing!
On judgement day - - The Lord will not be amused by our Yea Buts! Yea, but I thought This one was right - or that one was right. Only the word of God will be the measuring stick. We meet it or we dont’. He didn’t create a place for “Almost Right!” heaven or Hell…

 

[water]

He didn’t create a place for “Almost Right!” heaven or Hell…

He did create a place called “Bosom of Abraham”.

 

[jcanfield]

Two places for eternity . . . Heaven and Hell
The Bossom of Abraham was from the Rich Man Poor man in Luke.
A place of bliss - - a place of torment . … Not an interim holding area.
We will be at rest waiting for the judgement day - - or we will be in agony waiting for final judgement…
Plan and simple…
Rev 21:1-8 MKJV
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.
(2) And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.
(3) And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
(4) And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
(5) And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the Water of Life freely.
(7) He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
(8) But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

 

[Church_Militant]

Gen 1-26 speaks of “Let Us make man” that’s two.
And John 1:32 you have the God the Father - The Son ( Jesus) and the Dove - The holy Spirit
Show me implied purgatory in scripture? . Its a simple word for a word search… It is a lot easier to find in UNINSPIRED writing of man…
finally,
Mat 16:23
(23) Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men.

I’ll follow God’s Holy Inspired Word to Salvation any day.
On Judgement day you will have the chance to identify all those that you have chosen to follow - abandoning the word of God for the meaningless words of men.

Mat 7:21-23No problem. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Isa 55:8
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

God didn’t ask our opinion about His plan of salvation. Our logic says - - partial obedience will (should) be okay. . .

From the beginning - - Able got it right - Cain got it wrong. God didn’t give Cain an “Attay Boy . … Nice try”… He said Able’s sacrifice was righteous - - Cain’s was not… His failed attempt got him nothing!
On judgement day - - The Lord will not be amused by our Yea Buts! Yea, but I thought This one was right - or that one was right. Only the word of God will be the measuring stick. We meet it or we dont’. He didn’t create a place for “Almost Right!” heaven or Hell…

It’s too bad that you offer nothing more than your rhetorical interpretation of of a few cherry picked verses of scripture. The link above will take you to an actual Bible study with notes on the correlation between what the Bible teaches and what the Jews believe even today.

Two places for eternity . . . Heaven and Hell
The Bossom of Abraham was from the Rich Man Poor man in Luke.
A place of bliss - - a place of torment . … Not an interim holding area.
We will be at rest waiting for the judgement day - - or we will be in agony waiting for final judgement…
Plan and simple…
Rev 21:1-8 MKJV

Really? Yet that same Bosom of Abraham clearly indicates that, contrary to your assertion of “two places”, that there are indeed other “places” than simply Heaven and Hell.
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

Death and Hell… death…is a “place”, which certainly disproves your assertion.

 

[Church_Militant]

Mat 6:5-7

And precisely what has that passage to do with the doctrine of Purgatory? None whatsoever that I can see.

BTW, every time I hear some n-C/a-C offer that to one of us Catholics, it makes me want to be very sure that I shamelessly make the sign of the cross when I say grace of a meal in public. :irish1:

What gospel and verse are you quoting please?

Matthew 5:26

 

[JimG]

So, the Old Testament God (creator) of the world who could make sins “white as snow” as a spirit (for those he cared about) decided to enter into the flesh to die for the “SINS OF THE WORLD” and show people “the way”, (even though he did it FOR US himself) by suffering horrifically on the cross as the perfect sacrifice so everyone could join w/ him in his glorious heavenly kingdom when they die… while his Church tells us we have to follow in his footsteps too with sufferings/persecutions in ways that he did, while condemning those who don’t/won’t/can’t do it?

Why does this seem like a contradiction?

Not really a contradiction. Jesus does say in Matt 10:38 that “He who will not *take up his cross *and come after me, is not worthy of me.”