I Support the Troops

[Ani_Ibi]

Richardols:

The validity and morality on an action has nothing to do with the number of people who ride the bandwagon. It only means that Bush had support for his invasion.

The Act of Congress had to do with the number of people ‘riding the bandwagon’ only incidentally. The riding of the bandwagon is irrelevant. By referring to numbers you are implying that might makes right. Implicit in your claim is that that democratic process is always about numbers and that numbers is always about might makes right: ie, America is always run by bullies. Numbers are not always about might makes right. That’s why you have your Bill of Rights. Ergo, America is not always run by bullies.

The Resolution of Congress had to do with legitimate process, not might makes right.

 

[Richardols]

thestickman:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force

You are presuming that the war was for legitimate defense of the United States. The rush to war to remove the WMDs was shown to be false as no WMDs were found.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

You are presuming that the war met the criteria of the “just war.” Many disagree.

---

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

If the war doesn’t fulfill the criteria, then this doesn’t apply.
**

Hmmm that would be Congress and and President, right?

If the war didn’t meet the criteria, it doesn’t matter who approved.

 

[MikeWM]

thestickman:

***The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

---

Hmmm that would be Congress and and President, right?

Personally I’d say the Pope’s say might be important too, but hey, I’m just a Catholic

Mike

 

[Richardols]

MikeWM:

Personally I’d say the Pope’s say might be important too, but hey, I’m just a Catholic

Given that the Pope was against a war, his say, important or not, didn’t stop George from invading.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

MikeWM:

Personally I’d say the Pope’s say might be important too, but hey, I’m just a Catholic Mike

Did the Pope speak infallibly? If not, then please set out the Pope’s points and discuss why you support them.

 

[Richardols]

Ani Ibi:

Did the Pope speak infallibly?

The usual put-down, eh? If it hasn’t been declared Infallibly, it can be disregarded. Flag before Cross Forever!

 

[MikeWM]

Ani Ibi:

Did the Pope speak infallibly? If not, then please set out the Pope’s points and discuss why you support them.

Ah. We only need to listen to the Pope when he speaks infallibly, else if what he says is incovenient, it can be totally disregarded?

Mike

 

[vern_humphrey]

Richardols:

The usual put-down, eh? If it hasn’t been declared Infallibly, it can be disregarded. Flag before Cross Forever!

The current Pope, Benedict XVI himself, said that it is permissible to differ with the Holy Father in matters like this.

In this case, we went to war with a dictator who was flagrently violating the truce terms (remember WHY there was a truce?), who had invaded other countries before, who had possessed and used WMD on other nations and on his own people, and who was responsible for the massacre of hundreds of thousands of people.

 

[Richardols]

MikeWM:

Ah. We only need to listen to the Pope when he speaks infallibly, else if what he says is incovenient, it can be totally disregarded?

Obviously.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Richardols:

Obviously.

We have already had people calling the families of service members and telling them their loved ones had been killed or wounded (and that happened right here in Arkansas.) We have had people harass the families of service members near many military posts. I met a young trooper in Batesville who told me he had been spit on.

Do we want to go through all that again? Do we want people telling the pregnant wife of a service member they hope her husband is killed (that happened to my wife in '68)?

The enemy already hopes history will repeat itself. Do we want to encourage him?

 

[MikeWM]

vern humphrey:

We have already had people calling the families of service members and telling them their loved ones had been killed or wounded (and that happened right here in Arkansas.) We have had people harass the families of service members near many military posts. I met a young trooper in Batesville who told me he had been spit on.

Do we want to go through all that again? Do we want people telling the pregnant wife of a service member they hope her husband is killed (that happened to my wife in '68)?

The enemy already hopes history will repeat itself. Do we want to encourage him?

Ah. So because of a few nasty people doing bad things, everyone should lose their right to voice an opinion? (Isn’t the ‘war on terror’ supposed to be about freedom?)

Mike

 

[Richardols]

vern humphrey:

Do we want people telling the pregnant wife of a service member they hope her husband is killed (that happened to my wife in '68)?

How did she respond? My not-yet pregnant, but newlywed wife had the same said to her in 1967. Her answer: “#$%& you!”

 

[vern_humphrey]

MikeWM:

Ah. So because of a few nasty people doing bad things, everyone should lose their right to voice an opinion? (Isn’t the ‘war on terror’ supposed to be about freedom?)

Mike

Ah, the old “You’re infringing on my freedom of speech” ploy.

Let me point out that I have freedom of speech, too. And I exercise it by pointing out the damage this sort of irresponsible blather causes to those in harm’s way.

And, if I may, I can also point out that your freedom of speech was purchased at the price of blood and suffering by other men. Today’s soldiers are making their generation’s down payment on your freedom. Repay them by commenting with descretion and responsibility.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

MikeWM:

Ah. We only need to listen to the Pope when he speaks infallibly, else if what he says is incovenient, it can be totally disregarded?

Mike

Strawman. If the Pope spoke infallibly then, for Catholics, that’s the last word. If he did not, then the matter is open for discussion.

Did the Pope speak infallibly? Yes or no?

If your answer is no, then please return to the discussion at hand (instead of evading it). The request was for you to set out the Pope’s points and discuss them. Please do so.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Richardols:

How did she respond? My not-yet pregnant, but newlywed wife had the same said to her in 1967. Her answer: “#$%& you!”

My wife was with her parents in Philadelphia, and there was a group that looked for pregnant wives. Regardless how any of them replied, it was something that should never have happened.

Now, let us carry out our responsibility to see to it that it doesn’t happen to the wives of this generation of American soldiers.

 

[MikeWM]

vern humphrey:

Ah, the old “You’re infringing on my freedom of speech” ploy.

Let me point out that I have freedom of speech, too. And I exercise it by pointing out the damage this sort of irresponsible blather causes to those in harm’s way.

Fine. But I’m not trying to tell you what you can and can’t say, whereas you’re trying to tell me that there are things I can’t say. Who is respecting freedom of speech here?

And, if I may, I can also point out that your freedom of speech was purchased at the price of blood and suffering by other men. Today’s soldiers are making their generation’s down payment on your freedom. Repay them by commenting with descretion and responsibility.

Some soldiers are protecting my freedom of speech, yes, and people have suffered immensely to preserve it. But the ones in Iraq don’t seem to be doing much for me - indeed, apparently, while they are in Iraq, my freedom of speech is limited. I’m not even allowed to talk about my Pope’s opinion, it seems.

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

Ani Ibi:

Strawman. If the Pope spoke infallibly then, for Catholics, that’s the last word. If he did not, then the matter is open for discussion.

Did the Pope speak infallibly? Yes or no?

If your answer is no, then please return to the discussion at hand (instead of evading it). The request was for you to set out the Pope’s points and discuss them. Please do so.

The Pope rarely speaks infallibly. That doesn’t make him any less a very wise man, closer to God than any of us. When he speaks, we ought to listen, infallible or not.

I don’t want a loooonnnnnggggg discussion on the invasion of Iraq, frankly. I’m sure we’re all fully aware of our own points of view after 3 years. I’m sure, being Catholics, we also know what the Pope thought.

Mike

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Richardols:

The usual put-down, eh?

It was not a put-down. And, as far as I am concerned, it was not usual.

Richardols:

If it hasn’t been declared Infallibly, it can be disregarded.

Who said that? I certainly did not say that. Your response is a strawman.

What I did say was that, if the Pope did not speak infallibly, then please set out the Pope’s points and discuss them.

Richardols:

Flag before Cross Forever!

Who said that? Looks to me like you are saying that. Forever is a bit overdone, it seems to me. A bit of an unwarranted generalism. And flag before cross is a false dilemma.

Moreover, please draw in your horns. There is no reason for your aggressive misrepresentation of what people are saying when they disagree with you. It would behoove you greatly to address what is being said in a reasonable manner rather than in an inflammatory manner.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

MikeWM:

The Pope rarely speaks infallibly.

True.

MikeWM:

That doesn’t make him any less a very wise man, closer to God than any of us.

Strawman. No one said he isn’t wise.

MikeWM:

When he speaks, we ought to listen, infallible or not.

Ah, there’s your point. You want to reference the Pope, even when he is not speaking infallibly, but you do not want to discuss what he says when he is not speaking infallibly. This is not a legitimate use of reference to authority. If you are going to reference authority, then tell us what that authority said and relate it to your own points.

MikeWM:

I don’t want a loooonnnnnggggg discussion on the invasion of Iraq, frankly. I’m sure we’re all fully aware of our own points of view after 3 years. I’m sure, being Catholics, we also know what the Pope thought.Mike

You have evaded the question. As far as what the Pope has said, I am assuming that you concede.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Richardols:

Obviously.

Inflammatory.