I think ALL Christians Can Unite On This!

[PRmerger]

Question do Coptic Christians like Catholics worship the conscecrated wafer?

Schaick, I like you and don’t wish to see you banned from the CAFs, but the above statement is contemptuous of Catholicism and if you continue to make comments such as the above you won’t be here much longer. It is a perversion of what we actually profess.

To correct the above: Catholics do not worship a consecrated wafer. We worship Jesus, present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.

Just like I wouldn’t say that you worship 3 gods, as some Muslims like to accuse Christians of doing. That would be a perversion of what you actually profess, no?

 

[schaick]

Schaick, I like you and don’t wish to see you banned from the CAFs, but the above statement is contemptuous of Catholicism and if you continue to make comments such as the above you won’t be here much longer. It is a perversion of what we actually profess.

To correct the above: Catholics do not worship a consecrated wafer. We worship Jesus, present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.

Just like I wouldn’t say that you worship 3 gods, as some Muslims like to accuse Christians of doing. That would be a perversion of what you actually profess, no?

Well thanks I like you too. I enjoy these discussions but had stopped visiting for a while seems something I said appeared I hated Catholics, not sure. I have many Catholic friends and family. I also know that they have many very differing views just like all the differing views of every Christian!

Well I was going to stick with just this thread seemed like a positive thread.

The reason for miracles is so people know that GOD is present or that a messager is from GOD. There is no miraculous transformation if the body and blood of Christ can not be decerned in the bread and wine.

That is not to say that I do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus. I do - in, under and with the bread and wine. We are told to consume the meal- not worship it.

Many believe that Catholics worship their statues, medals I know this is not true. You do worship the wafer that you think has been miraculously changed into Jesus. ** Pagans believed their statues were gods.**

Is it contemptous if I believe that Catholics are performing idol worship towards the wafer? Do you also worship the wine?

This does not mean that you can mistreat or disrespect the bread nd wine because it is the symbol of the body and blood that **IS present **in the meal.

 

[PRmerger]

The reason for miracles is so people know that GOD is present or that a messager is from GOD. There is no miraculous transformation if the body and blood of Christ can not be decerned in the bread and wine.

Be careful, schaick. Are you really saying that because we can’t “discern” God’s presence in the bread and wine that he really isn’t there? Because it lookslike bread and wine, that’s all it is?

Do you think that people who saw Jesus could “discern” the divinity in his flesh? Or did he just* look *like a human being and therefore was not God because people could not discern anything except mere human flesh?

Careful.

If you deny the dogma of the Real Presence, you are going to be unable to defend the dogma of the Incarnation.

For Jesus did not look like God. He looked like a man.

 

[PRmerger]

Is it contemptous if I believe that Catholics are performing idol worship towards the wafer?

Yes, it is. And I advise you to refrain from insisting that we are worshipping a wafer.

This does not mean that you can mistreat or disrespect the bread nd wine because it is the symbol of the body and blood that **IS present **in the meal.

Why would mistreating a symbol be disrespectful?

I have a stethoscope of my dad, who passed away in 1991. It’s a symbol of him. If I stomp on it, so what? It’s just a symbol of him. But if I stomp on him, the real thing and not a cipher, then I am indeed showing grave disrespect.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well thanks I like you too. I enjoy these discussions but had stopped visiting for a while seems something I said appeared I hated Catholics, not sure. I have many Catholic friends and family. I also know that they have many very differing views just like all the differing views of every Christian!

Well I was going to stick with just this thread seemed like a positive thread.

The reason for miracles is so people know that GOD is present or that a messager is from GOD. There is no miraculous transformation if the body and blood of Christ can not be decerned in the bread and wine.

That is not to say that I do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus. I do - in, under and with the bread and wine. We are told to consume the meal- not worship it.

Many believe that Catholics worship their statues, medals I know this is not true. You do worship the wafer that you think has been miraculously changed into Jesus. ** Pagans believed their statues were gods.**

Is it contemptous if I believe that Catholics are performing idol worship towards the wafer? Do you also worship the wine?

This does not mean that you can mistreat or disrespect the bread nd wine because it is the symbol of the body and blood that **IS present **in the meal.

Christians worship God. Anything that is of God is to be worshiped. God alone is worshiped. Christians that believe that the bible is the word of God worship God.

Protestants can be accused of worshipping a book by those not believing that the bible is the word of God.

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church worships God alone in the liturgy in two parts. The liturgy of the Word/Bible and the liturgy of the Eucharist. Knox, Calvin, Zwingli taught wrongly to dismiss the liturgy of the Eucharist and as a result generations have learned as have you that there is only the liturgy of the Word.

Recall that your teachings came from the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church via former Catholics that taught your teachings. Your criticisms are experienced as nothing more than faulty catechesis and nothing more. We pray for you.

 

[schaick]

Christians worship God. Anything that is of God is to be worshiped. God alone is worshiped. Christians that believe that the bible is the word of God worship God.

Protestants can be accused of worshipping a book by those not believing that the bible is the word of God.

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church worships God alone in the liturgy in two parts. The liturgy of the Word/Bible and the liturgy of the Eucharist. Knox, Calvin, Zwingli taught wrongly to dismiss the liturgy of the Eucharist and as a result generations have learned as have you that there is only the liturgy of the Word.

Recall that your teachings came from the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church via former Catholics that taught your teachings. Your criticisms are experienced as nothing more than faulty catechesis and nothing more. We pray for you.

Protestants don’t bow down or pray to the Holy Bible.

 

[schaick]

Be careful, schaick. Are you really saying that because we can’t “discern” God’s presence in the bread and wine that he really isn’t there? Because it lookslike bread and wine, that’s all it is?

Do you think that people who saw Jesus could “discern” the divinity in his flesh? Or did he just* look *like a human being and therefore was not God because people could not discern anything except mere human flesh?

Careful.

If you deny the dogma of the Real Presence, you are going to be unable to defend the dogma of the Incarnation.

For Jesus did not look like God. He looked like a man.

OK we are way off topic!!

Not true we know Jesus is GOD’s Word incarnate because of the truths in the Holy Bible.

I am amazed that Catholics do not realize that the Holy Bible proves itself.

What sets the Holy Bible apart from any other writing? Prophecies that have been fufilled, again in front of eye witnesses. Catholics always say what about Nostradamus? I say - Does he have miracles being performed in front of eye witnesses? No.

The Holy Bible is the only book that I know of that contains prophecies fufilled AND miracles recorded that were performed in front of multiple witnesses. There are also prophecies from Jesus that were fufilled in His lifetime-his own death and resurrection.

Now remember I do believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in, under and with the bread and wine - a Sacremental Union. I am so blessed in this respect- there is no need for a miracle in this case.

The bread and wine remain fully bread and wine never transforming. The Real Presence for me being the glorified ressurrected body and blood of Jesus.

John 6
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Keep in mind and do not look down on those that do not believe in the Real Presence. Did you realize that eat in the Old Testamemnt = consuming the message!:
Isaiah 55
1 “Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and you will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.

Ezekiel 2
8 But you, son of man, listen to what I say to you. Do not rebel like that rebellious people; open your mouth and eat what I give you

Ezekiel 3
1 And he said to me, “Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the people of Israel

 

[schaick]

Yes, it is. And I advise you to refrain from insisting that we are worshipping a wafer.

Why would mistreating a symbol be disrespectful?

I have a stethoscope of my dad, who passed away in 1991. It’s a symbol of him. If I stomp on it, so what? It’s just a symbol of him. But if I stomp on him, the real thing and not a cipher, then I am indeed showing grave disrespect.

BY the way didn’t I said consecrated wafer? Isn’t the consecrated wafer different from the plain wafer?

Also did you answer me about the consecrated wine? Catholics are so literal about the bread, but not the wine?

Mistreating a symbol of GOD: Please remember that the Ark of the Covenant was a symbol of GOD of presence with the Isaraelites.

 

[PRmerger]

Protestants don’t bow down or pray to the Holy Bible.

Fair enough.

But bowing down is not necessarily worshipping, is it?

Or would you say that these Evangelical Christians are worshipping a box of kleenex?

 

[PRmerger]

OK we are way off topic!!

Oh, topic-schmopic.

I leave it to the mods to provide correction about when we’re off topic.

I rather like it when topics veer off onto tangents. It mimics real-life discussions–it’s like we’re really sitting at a coffee house talking about religion and the conversation naturally progresses into other topics.

Not true we know Jesus is GOD’s Word incarnate because of the truths in the Holy Bible.

Ok.

But let’s say you’re a Christian talking to a pagan in ancient Jerusalem. He tells you, “Prove to me that this man, Jesus, is God. He looks like a human being to me! If I examine his flesh all I’ll see is human flesh, no? Therefore, he cannot be divine.”

Similarly, you’re telling us, “Prove to us that the Eucharist is really Jesus. It looks just like bread and wine. If I examined it under a microscope, all I’d see is bread and wine, no? Therefore, it cannot be Divine.”

I am amazed that Catholics do not realize that the Holy Bible proves itself.

Chapter and verse where the Bible says this, please.

What sets the Holy Bible apart from any other writing? Prophecies that have been fufilled, again in front of eye witnesses.

Chapter and verse that says that prophecies that have been fulfilled indicate that a book is inspired, please.

 

[PRmerger]

BY the way didn’t I said consecrated wafer? Isn’t the consecrated wafer different from the plain wafer?

It is not a wafer that we worship, schaick.

It’s like a JW saying, “Trinitarians worship 3 gods.” The JW is professing a grave misunderstanding about what the Trinity is.

Also did you answer me about the consecrated wine? Catholics are so literal about the bread, but not the wine?

Ummm…we also do not worship the wine.

Mistreating a symbol of GOD: Please remember that the Ark of the Covenant was a symbol of GOD of presence with the Isaraelites.

Fair enough.

 

[Roy5]

** I have considerable sympathy for much within Catholicism**. As a person of mixed heritage, paternal Catholic, maternal Protestant, I have been interested in mutual respect throughout my life (and am now a senior). There are such great people professing different religions. I recall spending awhile in a Trappist monastery in Quebec (at Oka) and being deeply impressed by the dedication and sacrifice of the monks and lay brothers there.

** On the other hand, over the years I have had serious difficulty appreciating what some might term certain aspects of Catholicism.** If the RC only permitted a wider berth when it comes to some doctrines, how much easier it would be to assent to the total faith.

 **Take transubstantiation**. I am well aware of the different sides presented to defend or reject this dogma. As is often said 'even the devil can quote scripture.' Perhaps it's my education, perhaps a skeptical mind, perhaps a fear of paganism - whatever. Like the majority of Catholics (according to one poll I saw) I find it difficult to honestly believe that when a priest utters certain words the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ., I also have a problem with the idea that somehow this sacrifice is reenacted before God the Father - re-presented, if you will. Perhaps I fail to understand it fully. In any case, if this were a symbolic reenactment, fine. But the teaching that it is more than that makes the gulf between Christians very wide indeed.

** Or, consider Mary**. Every Christian (and every Muslim, too, by the way) honors Mary. Surely she is ‘blessed among women’. But why the absolute necessity to add to that several doctrines that seemed to have developed over the centuries. The Immaculate Conception (1864) and the Asssumption (1950) were not defined until modern times. In all the epistles Mary is not mentioned once. If she were to be so central, it seems that St. Paul would have at least made one reference to her. And why must Catholics believe that she was a perpetual virgin when marriage is such a basic and honorable relationship? And why insist that she never sinned when the scriptures say clearly that “all have sinned and fallen short”? It seems that most of this is extra-Biblical. The scriptures don’t even give us the names of her parents.

  **What a joy it would be if the RC could be less insistent upon a fundamentalist attitude toward doctrine which is not unlike Protestant fundamentalism**. People today are well-educated. They have searching minds, not likely to set aside their minds to accept what they are told by any church. They crave the freedom to think for themselves, and many of us have no problem 'not knowing for sure' many things. After all, there are maybe a billion solar systems out there. It isn't difficult for many of us to believe firmly in God, to seek to follow Christ, to have a strong faith in eternal life, yet have serious qualms about pretending to have the answers to many ultimate questions. We are content to let God work out such things, assured that 'farther along we'll know all about it' - words from a gospel hymn. I'm ready to wait. Meanwhile, I stand in awe before this mammoth, magnificent, miraculous and mysterious universe our God has created!

 **God bless all of his people** - of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us make our Christian faith a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[CopticChristian]

Protestants don’t bow down or pray to the Holy Bible.

Ok, well then Protestants sing, preach, read the bible and in every Protestant church I have been in this is considered worship. My experience with Protestants is “praise and worship” is listening to the band, clapping hands, singing songs, hymns, moving the body, shouting amen, listening to someone preach, bowing heads, putting hands together…well don’t that get all…you guys do not bow down? I have seen that. Well now you do not pray to the Holy Bible…The One Holy Catholic Church moves their body, uses their voices, respects the Word and the Eucharist in Worship.

Let’s put it another way, humans use Visual, Auditory, Olfactory, Gustatory and Kinesthetic means to experience the world and to communicate. Worship is communicating to God. This is what God gave us. We use all those means. Protestants use some of those. They see, listen, use their voice and sometimes move.

You might want to consider reassessing what you call worship!

 

[CopticChristian]

** I have considerable sympathy **for much within Catholicism. As a person of mixed heritage, paternal Catholic, maternal Protestant, I have been interested in mutual respect throughout my life (and am now a senior). There are such great people professing different religions. I recall spending awhile in a Trappist monastery in Quebec (at Oka) and being deeply impressed by the dedication and sacrifice of the monks and lay brothers there.

** On the other hand, over the years I have had serious difficulty **appreciating what some might term certain aspects of Catholicism. If the RC only permitted a wider berth when it comes to some doctrines, how much easier it would be to assent to the total faith.

 **Take transubstantiation**. I am well aware of the different sides presented to defend or reject this dogma. As is often said 'even the devil can quote scripture.' Perhaps it's my education, perhaps a skeptical mind, perhaps a fear of paganism - whatever. Like the majority of Catholics (according to one poll I saw) I find it difficult to honestly believe that when a priest utters certain words the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ., I also have a problem with the idea that somehow this sacrifice is reenacted before God the Father - re-presented, if you will. Perhaps I fail to understand it fully. In any case, if this were a symbolic reenactment, fine. But the teaching that it is more than that makes the gulf between Christians very wide indeed.

** Or, consider Mary**. Every Christian (and every Muslim, too, by the way) honors Mary. Surely she is ‘blessed among women’. But why the absolute necessity to add to that several doctrines that seemed to have developed over the centuries. The Immaculate Conception (1864) and the Asssumption (1950) were not defined until modern times. In all the epistles Mary is not mentioned once. If she were to be so central, it seems that St. Paul would have at least made one reference to her. And why must Catholics believe that she was a perpetual virgin when marriage is such a basic and honorable relationship? And why insist that she never sinned when the scriptures say clearly that “all have sinned and fallen short”? It seems that most of this is extra-Biblical. The scriptures don’t even give us the names of her parents.

  **What a joy it would be if the RC could be less insistent upon a fundamentalist attitude toward doctrine which is not unlike Protestant fundamentalism**. People today are well-educated. They have searching minds, not likely to set aside their minds to accept what they are told by any church. They crave the freedom to think for themselves, and many of us have no problem 'not knowing for sure' many things. After all, there are maybe a billion solar systems out there. It isn't difficult for many of us to believe firmly in God, to seek to follow Christ, to have a strong faith in eternal life, yet have serious qualms about pretending to have the answers to many ultimate questions. We are content to let God work out such things, assured that 'farther along we'll know all about it' - words from a gospel hymn. I'm ready to wait. Meanwhile, I stand in awe before this mammoth, magnificent, miraculous and mysterious universe our God has created!

 **God bless all of his people** - of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us make our Christian faith a bridge and not a barrier.

I appreciate your sympathy. There are no Protestant ascetics you know and the wide variety of believers provides many avenues for expression of Faith in the One Holy Catholic Church. Your difficulty with doctrine is understood. Imagine the poor Jew when Paul told them the Old Covenant was dead. Can you imagine the difficulty they had. Everything was interpreted in light of the New. Your dilema is less severe and has been overcome by many Protestants that ascent to what is and not what they want it to be. After all Protestant thought came from Catholics, Knox, Zwingli, Luther, Calvin. You need only examine what they discarded and how they failed. Cmon home:thumbsup:

 

[CopticChristian]

OK we are way off topic!!

Not true we know Jesus is GOD’s Word incarnate because of the truths in the Holy Bible.

I am amazed that Catholics do not realize that the Holy Bible proves itself.
What sets the Holy Bible apart from any other writing? Prophecies that have been fufilled, again in front of eye witnesses. Catholics always say what about Nostradamus? I say - Does he have miracles being performed in front of eye witnesses? No.

The Holy Bible is the only book that I know of that contains prophecies fufilled AND miracles recorded that were performed in front of multiple witnesses. There are also prophecies from Jesus that were fufilled in His lifetime-his own death and resurrection.

Now remember I do believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in, under and with the bread and wine - a Sacremental Union. I am so blessed in this respect- there is no need for a miracle in this case.

The bread and wine remain fully bread and wine never transforming. The Real Presence for me being the glorified ressurrected body and blood of Jesus.

John 6
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Keep in mind and do not look down on those that do not believe in the Real Presence. Did you realize that eat in the Old Testamemnt = consuming the message!:
Isaiah 55
1 “Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and you will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.

Ezekiel 2
8 But you, son of man, listen to what I say to you. Do not rebel like that rebellious people; open your mouth and eat what I give you

Ezekiel 3
1 And he said to me, “Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the people of Israel

This reminds me of the Protestant paradigm proving that the Bible is true. What in the world does that mean? This reminds of me of the ignorant proposition “evidence that demands a verdict” or other such nonsense. It usually means that since Knox, Calvin, Luther, Zwingli denied Church authority they cannot look to any authority to declare the Bible to be the Word of God. They then have to resort to trying to say that the Bible is self authenticating, Sola Scriptura and that fails to yield any useful information to an intelligent mind. If you believe this then throw out your verses and see that they do not stand up.

The Holy Bible proves itself to do what
The Holy Bible proves itslef to be what
The Holy Bible proves itself true
The Holy Bible proves itself to be correct
The Holy Bible proves itself to be words

What is it you are trying to say? The One Holy Catholic Church proves itself to be the Church that Christ founded from which the Bible was birthed and Catholics believe the Bible to be the true word of God, not because the bible says so but because the Church says so, the mystery hidden for all ages through which the manifest wisdom of God is known.

How is it you believe the Bible to prove itself to be what?

I am amazed that you accuse Catholics of something without defining it what you believe we are ignorant of.

 

[followingtheway]

#1. God is made up of The Father, Son, And The Holy Spirit, but there is one God. In Other words, The Holy Trinity.

No, not all Christians believe that. I don’t know if you would count Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as Christians but they don’t. I know Christadelphians and Unitarians don’t and Oneness Pentecostals. And I don’t know whether Seventh-Day Adventists do or don’t

#2. Jesus, The Son Of God, came down to earth, was Born of the Virgin Mary, Died For Our sins, was buried, and on the third day rose from the dead, defeating death and Satan. He ascended into Heaven and now sits at the right hand of God The Father almighty, From where He shall return for His Church someday.

Well, yeah :yup:

#3. There is a Heaven and a Hell ( and a Purgatory for some denominations) but to sum it all up, there is judgment after death.

Actually, a lot of them don’t believe in hell. There are such things as “Annihilationists” (Christians who believe that bad people “just die” instead of going to Heaven) and Universalists (Christians who believe everyone goes to Heaven! Or eventually does). And Catholicism is the only denomination I can think of that believe in Purgatory.

#4. Morals A.K.A sin do not change. Things like abortion, homosexuality, lying, cheating, stealing, etc… Do not change just because society thinks it should change.

Not really. Episcopalians, the Metropolitan Community Church, Unitarians, some Evangelical Lutherans, and the “Liberal Catholic” Church (which is a break off from ours) all believe homosexual acts are okay. In fact, Christianity is in Limbo when it comes to being gay. Some believe those same-sex desires are genetic but homosexuals acts are sinful and that gay people should be celibate. Some believe same-sex desires are temptations, and that one could turn heterosexual/straight with God’s help.

5#. The Bible is very important to Christianity (Whether you believe in sola scriptura or not).

Well, of course.

6#. We are to love our neighbor, help our fellowman, spread the gospel, and participate in our government and society. I believe its our duty as Christians.

Yes…

7#. The ONLY WAY to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. Not Buddha, Mohammad, etc.

Actually, we don’t know if all Non-Christians go to Hell or not, that’s up to God.

So these things I believe, can not only unite us, but keep the liberal Christians on the run

Then that’s not ALL Christians. :nope:

 

[CopticChristian]

No, not all Christians believe that. I don’t know if you would count Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as Christians but they don’t. I know Christadelphians and Unitarians don’t and Oneness Pentecostals. And I don’t know whether Seventh-Day Adventists do or don’t

Well, yeah :yup:

Actually, a lot of them don’t believe in hell. There are such things as “Annihilationists” (Christians who believe that bad people “just die” instead of going to Heaven) and Universalists (Christians who believe everyone goes to Heaven! Or eventually does). And Catholicism is the only denomination I can think of that believe in Purgatory.

Not really. Episcopalians, the Metropolitan Community Church, Unitarians, some Evangelical Lutherans, and the “Liberal Catholic” Church (which is a break off from ours) all believe homosexual acts are okay. In fact, Christianity is in Limbo when it comes to being gay. Some believe those same-sex desires are genetic but homosexuals acts are sinful and that gay people should be celibate. Some believe same-sex desires are temptations, and that one could turn heterosexual/straight with God’s help.

Well, of course.

Yes…

Actually, we don’t know if all Non-Christians go to Hell or not, that’s up to God.

Then that’s not ALL Christians. :nope:

Catholicism is not a denomination. All others denominated from the Catholic Church and they are denominations.

 

[PRmerger]

They then have to resort to trying to say that the Bible is self authenticating,

'zactly.

And yet there is no verse in Scripture that states this.

Sola Scriptura and that fails to yield any useful information to an intelligent mind. If you believe this then throw out your verses and see that they do not stand up.

The Holy Bible proves itself to do what
The Holy Bible proves itslef to be what
The Holy Bible proves itself true
The Holy Bible proves itself to be correct
The Holy Bible proves itself to be words

What is it you are trying to say?

Right.

The argument that is presented by Protestants ends up looking like this:

I know what’s in the Bible is inspired because it’s in the Bible.

 

[mark_a]

#4. Morals A.K.A sin do not change. Things like abortion, homosexuality, lying, cheating, stealing, etc… Do not change just because society thinks it should change.

Add contraception to the list and I’m on board w/#4

 

[CopticChristian]

Add contraception to the list and I’m on board w/#4

Add suppressing the truth, as that is morally wrong and I am on board too…

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.