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marymary1975
Guest
- if gay marriage has no impact on other people’s life then why is that a baker, a photographer, a florist, etc. Are being sued by a gay couple who wanted to force then to work their wedding? Also, I hope that if you don’t agree with gun you just don’t buy one and let anyone who wants to have a gun to have full access to it or of you don’t like drugs just don’t get drugs but let all the heroin, cocaine, crack addict buy/ sell their drugs and use them happily.
- if you don’t think that contracting a woman to go through pregnancy and birth to then take away that child from their mother and conceiving a child through a person selling their DNA is not detrimental to a child, then what is your definition of “detrimental”
Legal protection to committed people: unless that you are also actively fighting for legalization of poligamy and incest , throwing that argument is pure hipocresy.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Yes!
The “don’t shove your morals on me” crowd talk out of both sides of their mouths. Try posting that you think homosexual unions are fundamentally different than heterosexual ones on any “secular” forum–which I think we could all have deduced from any biology class we took from about sixth grade onwards–and you will get blasted by people who (ironically) will accuse you in very vitriolic language of hating other people, and who will then write something in your direction that is so very accepting of diverse opinions, something like “go crawl back under the rock you came from, you backwards religious freak.”
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joshvanrad
Guest
So, Carlj, correct me if I’m wrong but you’re saying:
Because society has slipped and allowed other morally wrong things to be acceptable, we should all more morally wrong things to become acceptable?
That’s what I’m seeing. Wow.
Because society has slipped and allowed other morally wrong things to be acceptable, we should all more morally wrong things to become acceptable?
That’s what I’m seeing. Wow.
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EasterJoy
Guest
To further prove my point, Portland, OR, is making a name for itself as a supplier of human “breeders” willing to rent their wombs and give up their children to gay men:
“Coupled with the abundance of healthy young women with healthy young eggs and healthy young wombs, Portland has a lot to offer to same-sex couples looking to star in their own real-life versions of The New Normal.”
queerty.com/portland-oregon-is-now-the-international-mecca-for-gay-surrogacy-20130513/
“Coupled with the abundance of healthy young women with healthy young eggs and healthy young wombs, Portland has a lot to offer to same-sex couples looking to star in their own real-life versions of The New Normal.”
queerty.com/portland-oregon-is-now-the-international-mecca-for-gay-surrogacy-20130513/
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EasterJoy
Guest
Even worse:
*Though the surrogates I spoke to were not poor, they were stay-at-home moms and surrogacy was an important source of income aside from their husbands’ salaries. Dr. Batzofin notes, “Generally speaking, many surrogates are from mid-to-lower socioeconomic groups. Maybe husband is something like a construction worker and they’ve already got two or three kids at home.”
…
Fraught cultural politics aren’t the only novel side effect of surrogacy for gay parents; surrogates can also find that gender dynamics change the experience emotionally. Tina is a surrogate who lives in Idaho with her husband and two kids. Over the last four years, she has carried for three couples, both gay and straight. As a Christian living in a conservative region, she had always opposed gay marriage and had initially agreed to carry only for straight couples.
Her first surrogacy experience, however, made her question that decision.
The surrogacy had started off promising — after sending a video of the positive at-home pregnancy test, she and the intended mother were in constant contact. “She called me every day and I liked having her feel included in the pregnancy,” says Tina. A petite woman with a shiny brown bob haircut and freckles, Tina’s voice is upbeat even as she describes how her mood plunged in the delivery room.
“The nurse kept turning her back to me when discussing things with the mother,” Tina explains. “They just made me feel very isolated. I was treated more like someone who was giving her baby up for adoption.” After giving birth and leaving the hospital, she didn’t hear from the mother for weeks.
Before carrying again, Tina read accounts from other surrogates online. When it came to gay couples, “I never came across a negative story.”
On message boards like AllAboutSurrogacy or SurroMomsOnline, this generalization does ring true. In one post, a woman writes, “Can someone please explain that apparent obsession with gay men and gift wrapping?” before detailing goods sent from the intended fathers. In another, a woman raves about an iPod her intended fathers bought her with the inscription “To our Baby Mama.” The dose of unfiltered positivity may be partly about cultural cachet: Carrying for gay couples is liberal and urbane, and therefore cool.
But there’s also a certain sadness that’s culturally associated with a woman who cannot bear her own children. Without a uterus between them, a gay male couple can go into the surrogacy without that emotional baggage.*
nymag.com/thecut/2012/12/gay-men-christian-wombs-the-new-surrogacy.html
This quote by a surrogate mother about the experience of being a surrogate for another woman simply astonishes me: I was treated more like someone who was giving her baby up for adoption. I don’t even know where to start with that. Does she look down on women who freely give babies up for adoption instead of renting her body out to willing bidders? Does she think those women who give their babies up for adoption deserve to be ignored by the adoptive parents and the medical staff, but she doesn’t?
Make no mistake: To support gay marriage is to support legal surrogacy. It is to encourage an explosion of surrogacy and it is to encourage the condemnation of anyone who opposes surrogacy. Take a look at the comments made about people who are upset by this, and you will have some idea about what we have coming. Thank you so much to the other Catholics who are making this all possible!!!
*Though the surrogates I spoke to were not poor, they were stay-at-home moms and surrogacy was an important source of income aside from their husbands’ salaries. Dr. Batzofin notes, “Generally speaking, many surrogates are from mid-to-lower socioeconomic groups. Maybe husband is something like a construction worker and they’ve already got two or three kids at home.”
…
Fraught cultural politics aren’t the only novel side effect of surrogacy for gay parents; surrogates can also find that gender dynamics change the experience emotionally. Tina is a surrogate who lives in Idaho with her husband and two kids. Over the last four years, she has carried for three couples, both gay and straight. As a Christian living in a conservative region, she had always opposed gay marriage and had initially agreed to carry only for straight couples.
Her first surrogacy experience, however, made her question that decision.
The surrogacy had started off promising — after sending a video of the positive at-home pregnancy test, she and the intended mother were in constant contact. “She called me every day and I liked having her feel included in the pregnancy,” says Tina. A petite woman with a shiny brown bob haircut and freckles, Tina’s voice is upbeat even as she describes how her mood plunged in the delivery room.
“The nurse kept turning her back to me when discussing things with the mother,” Tina explains. “They just made me feel very isolated. I was treated more like someone who was giving her baby up for adoption.” After giving birth and leaving the hospital, she didn’t hear from the mother for weeks.
Before carrying again, Tina read accounts from other surrogates online. When it came to gay couples, “I never came across a negative story.”
On message boards like AllAboutSurrogacy or SurroMomsOnline, this generalization does ring true. In one post, a woman writes, “Can someone please explain that apparent obsession with gay men and gift wrapping?” before detailing goods sent from the intended fathers. In another, a woman raves about an iPod her intended fathers bought her with the inscription “To our Baby Mama.” The dose of unfiltered positivity may be partly about cultural cachet: Carrying for gay couples is liberal and urbane, and therefore cool.
But there’s also a certain sadness that’s culturally associated with a woman who cannot bear her own children. Without a uterus between them, a gay male couple can go into the surrogacy without that emotional baggage.*
nymag.com/thecut/2012/12/gay-men-christian-wombs-the-new-surrogacy.html
This quote by a surrogate mother about the experience of being a surrogate for another woman simply astonishes me: I was treated more like someone who was giving her baby up for adoption. I don’t even know where to start with that. Does she look down on women who freely give babies up for adoption instead of renting her body out to willing bidders? Does she think those women who give their babies up for adoption deserve to be ignored by the adoptive parents and the medical staff, but she doesn’t?
Make no mistake: To support gay marriage is to support legal surrogacy. It is to encourage an explosion of surrogacy and it is to encourage the condemnation of anyone who opposes surrogacy. Take a look at the comments made about people who are upset by this, and you will have some idea about what we have coming. Thank you so much to the other Catholics who are making this all possible!!!
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ynotzap
Guest
Legality should be consistent with morality unfortunately in some cases it is not. Morality has become subjected to what ever people desire, right of wrong. I can not call :a gay (homosexual ) union marriage. It"s unnatural. I don’t call all gays homosexual A man may have effeminate tendencies, or a woman may have masculine tendencies. They didn’t choose to be that way. I do know that they have the same concupiscence problems we all have, an inordinate leaning towards sensuality This could be a very difficult problem for them. It will take the powerful grace of God for them to remain moral. It won’t be impossible, but a real challenge There is a moral principle to determine whether a thing is right or wrong. Whatever is objectively conducive to ones well-being is good and right, whatever is not conducive to ones well-being is bad and wrong. This goes for society and all individuals. Is homosexuality objectively conducive to the well being of society? If all were homosexuals would we even have a society? Even if we only had a small group, would the same hold true? Homosexuality can"t even classify as sex, it is self-evident what part sex plays in the world Homosexuality is the deviation of sex, therefore bad, and wrong. Society could possibly call it a union of some sort, but never a marriage.
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gardenswithkids
Guest
:sad_yes:
Relating to this is **“Biological Colonialism”. **
Poor women in developing countries are sometimes exploited for use as surrogates, largely by same sex males. Unlike real husbands, these men are not making life-long commitments with the women who are the mothers of their children–these men are buying eggs from one woman and planting them in the wombs of another woman. A few months and several thousands of dollars later, they walk away with a baby. The women who provided the womb and eggs are sometimes left serious health consequences.
One article from LifeSites mentions the C-section rate in one place of 75% and the pain management when they gave birth left much to be desired.
lifesitenews.com/blog/forced-caesareans-in-india-surrogacy-clinic
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marymary1975
Guest
Exactly, India is a perfect example where poor women are exploited in the name of surrogacy and same sex marriage. And interestingly about 3 weeks ago one surrogate in the UK for apparently a gay couple died a the result of birth (leaving two small children orphan). Right yhere you have very clearly how it affects others in society. In India I know there have been a few vases of women who have died. Exploiting poor women so a gay couple can mimic a heterosexual. Couple is detrimental to society.:sad_yes:
Relating to this is **“Biological Colonialism”. **
Poor women in developing countries are sometimes exploited for use as surrogates, largely by same sex males. Unlike real husbands, these men are not making life-long commitments with the women who are the mocases of their children–these men are buying eggs from one woman and planting them in the wombs of another woman. A few months and several thousands of dollars later, they walk away with a baby. The women who provided the womb and eggs are sometimes left serious health consequences.
One article from LifeSites mentions the C-section rate in one place of 75% and the pain management when they gave birth left much to be desired.
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Rau
Guest
You’re right to make this connection. The term “Family” must (no doubt) also undergo redefinition and we must all be re-educated to see such families as absolutely “natural and normal”.Make no mistake: To support gay marriage is to support legal surrogacy. It is to encourage an explosion of surrogacy and it is to encourage the condemnation of anyone who opposes surrogacy. Take a look at the comments made about people who are upset by this, and you will have some idea about what we have coming. Thank you so much to the other Catholics who are making this all possible!!!
And if the existence of SSA makes gay marriage right, then so must gay marriage make surrogacy right!So while this line of “reasoning” will amplify the drive for acceptance of surrogacy, it is not the sole source of demand. Any infertile couple (and even some others…) may consider the approach (and/or donor sperm). Of course, every gay couple is infertile…
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Rau
Guest
I note the UN has a Declaration on the Right to Marriage. Reading this, and other related explanatory material, I think it is clear that it portrays marriage as being between a man and a woman.
Is anyone aware of moves to revise that article, or introduce another, that would change the definition to clearly admit same sex ‘marriage’?
Is anyone aware of moves to revise that article, or introduce another, that would change the definition to clearly admit same sex ‘marriage’?
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holyrood
Guest
Nauseating. Welcome to the Brave New World.
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marymary1975
Guest
I don’t think so for the simple reason that despite the fact that the UN may want to promote acceptance of gay marriage, by far for most of the worldgay marriage is against public policy and non eexistent. So called gay marriage at an international level is just an execotion in a few countries and not valid in most of the Globe. The UN as an international organization would have to first make a shift to have gay marriage present at least in a majority of the world to then try to amend their Declarations.
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EasterJoy
Guest
It is a form of prostitution, yes. Why some people think it is simply awful for a man to pay to have sex with a woman but somehow wonderful if he can arrange to pay her to bear his child is beyond me. Worse yet are the fellows like Neil Patrick Harris and David Burtka, who think it is “nothing but love” to ask a woman they would never marry to purposefully take on a higher-risk multiple pregnancy in order to indulge their desires. Even if you think IVF is A-OK, it cannot beyond their moral comprehension to see that much.Nauseating. Welcome to the Brave New World.
This is what is already happening, and yet people argue with a straight face that acting as if homosexuals have a right to pretend marriage hurts no one and does society no harm.
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marymary1975
Guest
:clapping::clapping::clapping:
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holyrood
Guest
Excellent point. Thank you for your continuing thoughtful addition to these conversations.
Twins and even triplets have become so relatively common these days, that I think people are unaware of the real risks. Having carried twins nearly to term and read a great deal on it, having been on a forum with hundreds of mothers of twins, these risks are very real, to both mother and child.
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marymary1975
Guest
I think that is the problem…it has become so common today plus added to advances to medical technology„ that people have forgotten how risky this is. Actually I think the mother of the death surrogate said she was going to sue the agency based on the fact that they fail to tell the truth to people. They minimize the risks and sell it to women as “help” and as something altruistic without presenting the actual risks.
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ynotzap
Guest
In a society where pagan culture is prevalent anything goes We find ourselves fighting issues that we realize are immoral, just bad and wrong. Our consciences have been informed by our Faith.as to what is right and wrong. Any fight we find ourselves in seem to only provide symptomatic relief. Legalization of divorce, abortion, assisted suicide in short the culture of death is not only limited to death, but to insanity. Legality should be harmonizing with morality.to produce a sane society. A dividing factor has been introduced to our society. Man’s desires contradicting what God desires for us. What we are observing is a Godless society.and we can expect more of the same Until God through Jesus Christ is brought back, all other efforts can only produce symptomatic cure.at best. Catholics need Evangelization, and then they need to Evangelize the world. This is like sending missionary to a pagan world. We get caught up in the particulars, and fail to see the root of the problem I believe Pope Francis is addressing Catholics with the same advice. He emphasized to not involve ourselves so much is these issues but to reach out with love, and the truth of our Faith. Jesus Christ is the only one to resolve these issues by giving those people who are involved the grace to change, to be converted. Then and only then will love, life and sanity return, The world needs her Saviour and He can’t be denied. St. John the Baptist pray for us! I believe the Pope said that we are in the spring time of our history.
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Rau
Guest
Carlj - I don’t think so many people protest “homosexuality” per se, nor (as you say) pre-marital sex, pornography, adultery, murder and so on.
Gay “marriage” attracts more attention because, it involves **State recognition, endorsement and acclaim **for an act that many people believe to be fundamentally wrong. In this respect it is entirely different from the other things you listed.
Your statement that being Gay is illegal is clearly nonsense (in much of the world at least). Two gay persons living together and engaging in sexual acts is likewise not illegal (in much of the world). Gay “marriage” is not illegal in jurisdictions that don’t provide for it - it simply is not an available process for same sex couples.
And as to the question of what our view on (civil) gay marriage should be - I can understand an inclination to “not care two hoots” about what the civil authorities do. But the alternative view is this: Why, as a Christian, and as a citizen of a democratic country, would you not express your views about what is right? Why would you stay quiet and permit (or worse, encourage) the State to recognise, endorse and acclaim a practice that you view as wrong, knowing that the States action sends a message to all that this practice is OK, indeed “wonderful”, just like a genuine “Marriage”. Why - as a Christian - would you want that message to be sent with the authority of the State of which you are a part?
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EasterJoy
Guest
There are even Catholics who believe that the most loving thing to do for a fallen world is to approve of it, to tell each other that we sinners can’t be expected to do anything but what we are doing, that it is virtue that is unrealistic, unnatural and inhumane, while vice is generous and accepting, warm and all-welcoming. We do not encourage each other to repent, but encourage each other to give in to despair and then to deny to ourselves that we have given in.In a society where pagan culture is prevalent anything goes We find ourselves fighting issues that we realize are immoral, just bad and wrong. Our consciences have been informed by our Faith.as to what is right and wrong. Any fight we find ourselves in seem to only provide symptomatic relief. Legalization of divorce, abortion, assisted suicide in short the culture of death is not only limited to death, but to insanity. Legality should be harmonizing with morality.to produce a sane society. A dividing factor has been introduced to our society. Man’s desires contradicting what God desires for us. What we are observing is a Godless society.and we can expect more of the same Until God through Jesus Christ is brought back, all other efforts can only produce symptomatic cure.at best. Catholics need Evangelization, and then they need to Evangelize the world. This is like sending missionary to a pagan world. We get caught up in the particulars, and fail to see the root of the problem I believe Pope Francis is addressing Catholics with the same advice. He emphasized to not involve ourselves so much is these issues but to reach out with love, and the truth of our Faith. Jesus Christ is the only one to resolve these issues by giving those people who are involved the grace to change, to be converted. Then and only then will love, life and sanity return, The world needs her Saviour and He can’t be denied. St. John the Baptist pray for us! I believe the Pope said that we are in the spring time of our history.
Pope Francis challenges us to live the truth in obvious joy, to remember to wear our gratitude for grace on our sleeves. Whenever the Holy Spirit is lived in the world, that is a springtime, yes. That doesn’t mean saying up is down and red is green in order to keep from being yelled at. The Pope is not adverse to opposing those who are working on the wrong side of the truth, the people who would yell at him for speaking about what it right instead of only talking about agreed-upon ground. He is a joyful man, but he is not impotent to do anything but smile and wave at evil. His joy has a lot of courage to it, too.
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