I think gay marriage should be legal. Is that wrong?

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I had some sympathy for this argument, until the gay lobby in Oregon rejected giving all adult couples not currently eligible to marry access to the same package of benefits. They didn’t want that–that is, to give the same rights to adults in mutual care who were not sexual partners. They want the same status *as sexual partners *as heterosexual partners get. They don’t want the “right to love each other.” They want to imitate marriage.
Is it accurate to say that this proposal in Oregon:
  1. was called something other than Marriage;
  2. made no assumptions one way or the other in respect of a sexual partnership;
  3. granted essentially identical rights and obligations as applicable to married people.
BTW - did the Oregon proposal have mutual love and commitment as an assumed element?

I have asked a few times on this forum for pro-gay ‘marriage’ folks to advise whether such would be acceptable, but haven’t had an answer yet.
 
How can those apposed to our beliefs and our Faith when they can’t give what they don’t have, the fruit of grace that we take so much for granted, respond to us. They are truly spiritually handicapped. We do them an injustice before God, expecting them to respond as we do. Salvation is for real and there is only one Saviour… It is only so by the grace of God through Jesus Christ that salvation comes to the world so that no one can take the credit that belongs to Jesus Christ alone. Creation was made subject to futility by Him who made it so in hope, awaiting the revelation of glory of the children of God. We don,t sit back, but we don,t become saviours to the world. Yes we will live practicing our faith, but all we can do ,is point the way to Jesus Christ as the real answer. The real need is Evangelization. All the good example we can give will not convert. This has been verified by at least several Popes, and by St.Paul. This really worries me about Catholic activists, they don’t really understand their faith. God grant me the grace to change the things I can change the acceptance and peace of the things I can"t change and the wisdom to know the difference
 
A child who is 14 had not reached the age of legal majority. They cannot legally consent to marriage without the consent of their parents in a court of law. And the vast majority of states in the US prohibit marriages of anyone under 15, regardless of if the parents give consent.
And what on earth makes you believe that makes an iota of difference to those two individuals who are “in love” as gays rant and rave about. You miss the entire point:

BOTH are morally WRONG!
 
A child who is 14 had not reached the age of legal majority. They cannot legally consent to marriage without the consent of their parents in a court of law. And the vast majority of states in the US prohibit marriages of anyone under 15, regardless of if the parents give consent.
Who says the age of legal majority should be 14. This is exactly the point. When abortion was illegal, that didn’t matter to the liberals, yet they hold up ‘the age of consent’ as proof that that won’t be legally changed and has no bearing on changing other of our laws?

Exactly as the previous poster just said, you’re deliberately missing the point. If we can change laws to accommodate love, well, then…we can change laws to accommodate love. Three people can love each other. A cat and a man can love each other. If we can change the definition of marriage from what it has meant throughout human history, then we can certainly change the definition of consent, and we can easily change the age. Heck, boys as young as 14 used to go to war. Girls used to get married even younger than that, so why in the world is ‘14 is below the age of consent’ matter more than the fact that there never has been such a thing as two men ‘marrying?’
 
Is it accurate to say that this proposal in Oregon:
  1. was called something other than Marriage;
  2. made no assumptions one way or the other in respect of a sexual partnership;
  3. granted essentially identical rights and obligations as applicable to married people.
BTW - did the Oregon proposal have mutual love and commitment as an assumed element?

I have asked a few times on this forum for pro-gay ‘marriage’ folks to advise whether such would be acceptable, but haven’t had an answer yet.
It was a proposal allowing adults who could not marry to give each other reciprocal benefits.
"The resulting reciprocal beneficiaries legislation, which gets the support of Oregon’s Catholic bishops, would create about a dozen legal rights, such as survivorship benefits, for couples who cannot wed. That includes homosexual pairs, siblings or even an elderly parent and child.

The opposition to civil unions ‘in no way diminishes our care and respect for homosexual persons, children of God, one and all,’ Portland Archbishop John Vlazny writes in his Sentinel column this week."

catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=7333
 
What many apparently fail to realize is that history has shown that homosexual unions approved by a community are a sign of it’s imminent fall.

God has made it abundantly clear that He abhors homosexuality and like all His laws they have a purpose and are based on logic. Furthermore, homosexuality according to the Bible is the consequence of vain and arrogant hearts which should be warning to us a society but we conveniently ignore it out of political correct notions.
 
Who says the age of legal majority should be 14. This is exactly the point. When abortion was illegal, that didn’t matter to the liberals, yet they hold up ‘the age of consent’ as proof that that won’t be legally changed and has no bearing on changing other of our laws?

Exactly as the previous poster just said, you’re deliberately missing the point. If we can change laws to accommodate love, well, then…we can change laws to accommodate love. Three people can love each other. A cat and a man can love each other. If we can change the definition of marriage from what it has meant throughout human history, then we can certainly change the definition of consent, and we can easily change the age. Heck, boys as young as 14 used to go to war. Girls used to get married even younger than that, so why in the world is ‘14 is below the age of consent’ matter more than the fact that there never has been such a thing as two men ‘marrying?’
It is amazing how the gay community deliberately has re-defined marriage,yet they are against other issues like a 14 year old getting married? Classic case of double-standards.
 
You seem to have a wrong understanding of moral truth. Relativism is a heresy.

SSM is not wrong simply because the Church says it is. It is objectively wrong, for all people. It is a serious wrong to inflict upon society and children. SSA was rightly classified as a mental illness by the APA until recently, when political correctness moved them away from this truth.
It’s no longer an illness because science understands that it is normal for homosexuality to be observed in the human population, and that there is no “cure”.
You are quite mistaken. It is very much like abortion or any other serious moral wrong. It impacts society. It is wrong in-and-of itself. It should be illegal not only because of its wrongness but because of it’s impact on society and children. The French can see this so clearly, they clearly understand the term “matrimony”-- the making of a mother-- and the purpose marriage serves in civil society.
It’s moral wrongness is part of the equation. Legality in civil society should in fact reflect the objective truth of natural law. But more importantly, civil law seeks to preserve the social order. Laws that favor marriage are in place to encourage marriage because they produce children, which is a benefit to society that is to be encouraged. Rome found themselves in a similar position in the late empire-- people were not having babies. The society was imploding. They enacted legilsation to encourage marriage and children, and penalize singleness. Gay marriage is of NO benefit to society. To encourage it is to give financial and social benefit to something that produces no benefit in return. It is illogical.
We now know that gay relationships operate just like straight ones. Some are loving, some are abusive. Some last long, some don’t last. And through adoption, gays can raise the surplus of unwanted children in today’s world. What do you mean, there is no benefit to society to recognizing their relationships as equal?

How is it wrong in itself? The only reason it’s “wrong” is because the Vatican says so. But there is no objective standard of morality.

**Give me evidence of the negative impact of gay marriage rights. ** Has Europe, Australia, Canada, and Latin America gone to hell? No. In fact, those countries and US states that have adopted gay rights, in general, have higher standards of living.

And you talk about France? France has abandoned Catholic values and allowed gay marriage rights. When did the Anglophone countries ever trust the French opinion on anything?
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UnCatholicBride:
I would love to know how gay marriage is a detriment to society and to children.
  1. A gay person getting married has NO impact on your marriage, your family, or your life. If you are against gay marriage, don’t marry a gay person!
  2. I would love to know how gay marriage is a detriment to children. How is ANY committed relationship where two people want to love a child a detriment to that child? Answer: it’s not.
Two intellectually disabled individuals who are competent enough to consent can marry and reproduce, which certainly would be a detriment to a child, and yet two people of sound mind and body are somehow less capable of raising a child?

The state is not forcing churches to marry ANYONE. Religion should have no place in affording legal protection to a committed couple- gay or straight.

And this whole argument of “we must make straight people get married and have sex to keep our population up” argument is complete bollocks. There have been and always will be infertile couples, or couples who are child-free by choice.

There are 143 million orphans in the world. Until they all have a home there’s no reason that we need to be worried about humans going extinct.
👍
 
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ClearWater:
Have you ever actually looked at some statistics on homosexuality? If not, I’d invite you to do that before condoning this.

Did you realize the murder rate of homosexuals is 100 times that of the normal population?
The suicide rate is 25 times higher

People say condomns are great, but they have about a 15% failure rate, and what about AIDS? Yes, I know that heterosexuals can also get AIDS; but homosexuality puts a person into a high risk category, for example, with even blood donation. It’s similar to someone who uses IV drugs.

The life span of homosexuals is also significantly shorter…
We now know that HIV medications can extend lifespan to what it would be without infection. Yes, and we need to address the mental health problems of gays, much of which are caused by persecution of gays under the Christian church!!
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holyrood:
Yep, bumper sticker slogans.

You can find thousands of threads, forums, blogs, and thoughtful articles explaining exactly how redefining marriage is a detriment to society. None of it will have any impact on you. I suspect many people won’t bother reading such discussions about why this is going to harm all of society because it’s a profound subject which doesn’t fit on a bumper sticker.

…and also, because people simply don’t want to think that hard about these things in a day where we’ve been conditioned by 40 or more years to believe that what we want and feel is what’s really important, rather than what is true, what is good, what is beautiful, what is healthy, what is responsible, what is our duty, what is ultimately the best for our children, our eternity.

Nope, easier to stick a fast food hamburger in our mouths, shout out a bumper sticker slogan to prove we ‘care,’ and go get our pseudo emotional intimacy from whoever is willing, of whatever sex, and tell ourselves God doesn’t really care all that much, and the Bible and every major world religion couldn’t possibly know anything. Because if we admit that, we might have to actually cook for ourselves, read hefty volumes, think hard, and be lonely sometimes until we find a quality person to share that true gift of intimacy.
And you can find even more scientific and social science research that shows that marriage equality has NO negative impact on society, children, or even marriage in general!!

So you’re right. God doesn’t really care all that much about the political issue. We know, because Jesus never did anything politically when he was on earth! Jesus reached out to the downtrodden, and to rejected social classes. Jesus cared about the spiritual battle within all of us. And you reduce Jesus to an anti-gay political platform because somehow, it’s “best for society”? When it’s clear there is no detriment to society?
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EasterJoy:
After all–if marriage is defined as a union between any people who have sexual consort, why should marriage have a special status at all? Why should it be confined to just two people? Why on earth could gay marriage especially not be polygamous?
That’s a great question, and that is why more and more people no longer believe in marriage, because they are realizing that “traditional” notions of marriage are outdated.

Besides, if you advocate “traditional” marriage, then why don’t you advocate polygamy?
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raikou:
It has a negative impact to everyone because it gives legal approval to an immoral action.

By approving gay marriage, the State is effectively saying: “Oh, sex really doesn’t need to be between a man and a woman. We can just ignore nature and just allow our sexual inclinations to get the better of us.” And oh, let us condone and even encourage the practice by giving them benefits.
**A secular government CANNOT legislate morality. ** It is beyond its province to do so.

And natural?? What is natural? And what is natural law? It just seems like some fallback position that Catholics revert to. We know it’s natural for some humans to have same-sex attraction.
 
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EasterJoy:
IOW, to endorse same-sex “marriages” is to encourage the conception of children outside wedlock. The children are told, in effect, “As long as you get two parents, it is not for you to care where your biological parent or parents are. We decided that this is not important for you.” This is reducing children to possessions, or livestock. Whether heterosexuals do it or homosexuals do it, it is morally repugnant. The difference is that a) homosexuals cannot have biological children in any way except by extramarital liaison and b) the child is denied either a same-sex or an opposite-sex parent by design. Not by an unfortunate accident of fate, by design.

People do studies to try to prove that having your own parents raise you doesn’t make a difference. It floors me…as if you can tell me that as long as my grades are just as high, I shouldn’t care that you decided before I was born you decided for me that I didn’t need my mom or I didn’t need my dad, that someone else could be chosen, and I ought to be taught that this was fine! That is very sad.
Many, many people do not have their biological parents as their parents. So what? There are times when the state will seize one’s children because one is unfit to be a parent. Should that not be allowed? Your argument means that logically, we should not allow people to adopt by choice!
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on_the_hill:
I"m feeling very oppositional this evening. But I can’t help it. I was born this way.

The more I read posts against gay marriage, the more I do this:

I don’t care. Let 'em marry.
Yeah. That’s how billions of others feel.

And that’s why Protestant churches no longer preach on this issue, because they understand that the Bible has little to say on the issue politically.

In the USA, SSM bans are being ruled unconstitutional even in conservative states like Oklahoma, Utah, and Texas. Other states like Nevada and the Federal government are refusing to defend their own laws banning gay rights.

Why? Because marriage is a fundamental right and gender discrimination is wrong. And cruelty against homosexuals, who have been persecuted throughout history, is wrong. Because the state cannot legislate morality. Because churches should understand that legislating morality is not effective, but rather, preaching the Gospel is.

The tide is irreversible and marriage equality is inevitable.

The funny thing is, it hasn’t made a difference in our lives!
**
So is the Catholic Church ready to give up yet? ** Or does it want to be known as the church that hatefully opposed gay rights until it died away into irrelevance, into the ash heap of history?
 
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holyrood:
Nauseating. Welcome to the Brave New World
So what???

You call it a brave new world because you fear. You fear, because you hate. You hate, because you don’t understand.

You are just as bad as the Judeans of Jesus’ time, who looked down on the Samaritans. But what did Jesus say about the Good Samaritan?

You guys are like the Pharisees, claiming a moral high ground when your actions show nothing close to what Jesus really taught.

Why don’t you do more to understand gay people and you’ll realize that they are just like any other.

It’s just another culture. Much like meeting someone of another race or country. They are human just like you and me.

Isn’t it foreseeable that as we learn more about ourselves through scientific research, and as new economic and social systems help change the way we live our everyday lives, that notions of marriage and family will also change?

But so what? Are you gonna live without a car and cell phone because you fear the changes those brought?
 
It’s no longer an because science understands that it is normal for homosexuality to be observed in the human population, and that there is no “cure”.
All manner of ‘conditions’ are “normal to be observed in the human population”. All we really know is that it happens and that it is inconsistent with human sexuality. We also don’t know what causes it, and whether any cure is possible.
We now know that gay relationships operate just like straight ones.
Hardly! Human relations between any pair of people, including brother and sister, mother and daughter, etc. may exhibit the things you list (love, abuse, etc). But that is not the essence of Marriage, is it? A better approach would be:
  1. For the State to determine why it values same sex relationships, and/or why such relationship are in need of State recognition;
  2. For the State to define an institution that matches those needs and give said institution a name. That name cannot be Marriage since that name is already applied to an entirely unique relationship!
How is it wrong in itself? The only reason it’s “wrong” is because the Vatican says so. But there is no objective standard of morality.
It is probably beyond the State to deal with this question.

The question of the relationship between secular law and morality is also being discussed here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=862448
 
Your argument means that logically, we should not allow people to adopt by choice!
Cali - can you see the difference between a couple seeking to adopt a lonely orphan child, versus creating a child for the purposes of handing over that child to two persons, separating him/her from one (or both) of his parents? I understand you are a lawyer - so I think you know that your argument - equating these two cases - may have a hole or two?
Because marriage is a fundamental right and gender discrimination is wrong.
Morality aside, people have a ‘right’ to shack up with whom they like, and to have sex with whom they like (subject to the law).
Marriage as a sacrament is a right for those who meet the criteria set by the relevant Church.
Marriage as a secular institution is a right for those who meet the criteria set by the relevant State.
You refer to a “fundamental right” - can you elaborate on where that comes from. Are you referring to the UN charter of rights? And how does gender come into it?
 
Cali - can you see the difference between a couple seeking to adopt a lonely orphan child, versus creating a child for the purposes of handing over that child to two persons, separating him/her from one (or both) of his parents? I understand you are a lawyer - so I think you know that your argument - equating these two cases - may have a hole or two?
Again, this reflects the fear of a “brave new world”. But what’s wrong with surrogacy in itself? In both cases, a couple is seeking to adopt a child.
Morality aside, people have a ‘right’ to shack up with whom they like, and to have sex with whom they like (subject to the law).
Marriage as a sacrament is a right for those who meet the criteria set by the relevant Church.
Marriage as a secular institution is a right for those who meet the criteria set by the relevant State.
You refer to a “fundamental right” - can you elaborate on where that comes from. Are you referring to the UN charter of rights? And how does gender come into it?
“Fundamental right” refers to the strict scrutiny standard of 14th Amendment caselaw. Gender also comes into it. Gender is evaluated according to intermediate scrutiny under 14th Amendment caselaw (it was used by the New Mexico Supreme Court to pave the way for gay marriage rights here).
 
“Fundamental right” refers to the strict scrutiny standard of 14th Amendment caselaw. Gender also comes into it. Gender is evaluated according to intermediate scrutiny under 14th Amendment caselaw (it was used by the New Mexico Supreme Court to pave the way for gay marriage rights here).
You can’t seriously tell me you need to rely on the US constitution to determine a “fundamental” right"?? So before 1868, how many “fundamental” rights did US citizens need to do without?
 
Why? Because marriage is a fundamental right and gender discrimination is wrong. And cruelty against homosexuals, who have been persecuted throughout history, is wrong. Because the state cannot legislate morality. Because churches should understand that legislating morality is not effective, but rather, preaching the Gospel is.

The tide is irreversible and marriage equality is inevitable.

The funny thing is, it hasn’t made a difference in our lives!
**
So is the Catholic Church ready to give up yet? ** Or does it want to be known as the church that hatefully opposed gay rights until it died away into irrelevance, into the ash heap of history?
There is so much wrong with your series of polemical posts that it is difficult to know where to begin taking apart and sorting through what can only be called 'piled deeper and higher," as if by burying anyone who holds views in any way distinct from yours they will simply be intimidated into submission by the monumental size of your contribution.

In dissecting this ‘mound,’ perhaps it would be a start to look at only two of your ‘points’ more closely.
  1. Regarding your last comment that the Church has “hatefully” opposed gay rights. Can you supply any evidence that the opposition has been at all hateful? Simply being opposed to some perspective on a key moral issue is not sufficient to qualify a person or group as hateful. This question, to be answered at all meaningfully, is tied to conceptions of ‘good’ and what constitutes human well-being.
The fact that liberal activists (and perhaps you yourself) differ from the Church on what well-being entails does not, by itself, mean the Church is being “hateful” by voicing an alternative viewpoint. In fact, resorting to calling opposing viewpoints “hateful,” is sufficient to make me wonder whether you have anything meaningful to add to the debate since your advance strategy seems merely to shut down and shut up anyone who disagrees with you.
  1. On the point that allowing gay marriage “has not made a difference in our lives,” it seems that you have missed the point entirely. The move to permit gay marriage is symptomatic of a larger issue. The issue concerns what might best be depicted as an “unmooring” from an ancient and, up until the past two hundred years, assumed conception of the Tao or “good.” Up until very recently, it was understood in the deeper regions of the human psyche and by virtually all religions and peoples that the guiding principle underlying the universe was ‘good order’ and that all interactions naturally tended towards teleological end goods. There is a kind of natural ordering to the universe that generally brings about ‘the good,’ or, at least, that there is an inherent order to things that make them tend towards good ends.
In the past 200 years, and Nietzsche was one of the first to put the phenomenon into a descriptive summary, human beings, by the sheer overwhelming power of technology and will have reconfigured that understanding and have made human will itself the originating principle of change. In other words, we have taken upon ourselves the authority and ‘right’ to determine our own nature and the nature of the good. The idea of determining your own sexual orientation is simply a foray into as yet unperturbed waters regarding what human beings can “get away with” regarding defining the nature of reality. It is in ‘overthrowing’ all the vestiges of ‘nature’ and shackles of natural law that human beings will at last be free to determine our own destiny - at least that is the overarching principle behind the MYTH of the supremacy of human will.

What is interesting is that you have bought into this myth entirely. To the point, in fact, that you claim the Church will be rendered to the trash heap of history if it opposes what can only be called this adolescent ‘quest.’ Obviously you don’t know history, nor do you understand the nature of the Tao.

Human beings do not have the power, nor the authority, nor the wisdom to determine the nature of humanity. We are in for a very rough ride if we continue down this road of ‘self-determination.’ The past 100 years have been the bloodiest and most insane in history. Only a simpleton. would stand here and proclaim a time when we butcher our own offspring by the millions and audaciously proclaim the right of individuals to treat the act by which new life is brought into existence as nothing worthy of special attention or protection.

Your question, ought better to be phrased as, “What MORE harm can it do?” but I doubt that any further harm will even register on your harm detection meter seeing as you have entirely missed the outcome thus far.

We are in a moral mess, one in which only more sex, more drugs, more alcohol and more toys ( and in increasing larger doses ) will serve to shelter us from the empty delirium of our current state.
 
It’s no longer an illness because science understands that it is normal for homosexuality to be observed in the human population, and that there is no “cure”.

:
This is a complete logical fallacy.

Blindness is normal to observe in the human population and many types of blindness have no cure. Would you say that blindness is not a disorder?

Schizophrenia is normally observed in human populations and has no cure. It is clearly a mental illness.

In fact, most illnesses are observed in human populations. And for many illnesses that are curable today, there was a time when there was no cure.

Even if homosexuality is a result of genetic variation, it is not excluded that it is a disorder or even an illness.
 
This is a complete logical fallacy.

Blindness is normal to observe in the human population and many types of blindness have no cure. Would you say that blindness is not a disorder?

Schizophrenia is normally observed in human populations and has no cure. It is clearly a mental illness.

In fact, most illnesses are observed in human populations. And for many illnesses that are curable today, there was a time when there was no cure.

Even if homosexuality is a result of genetic variation, it is not excluded that it is a disorder or even an illness.
To clarify your point further: to have a certain inclination would mitigate culpability of those who indulge in a behavior compared to those who did not have a biological predilection, but unless the person with the inclination to commit some immoral act is in some sense “criminally insane” and unable to exert self-control there is still a moral requirement to control oneself as best as one is able.

After all, there is ample evidence that human beings are not “naturally” inclined to be monogamous. Does that imply that marriage itself is not only not a right, but that it is a nonsensical institution based on unrealistic expectations, right from the start? 🤷
 
A moral question comes to mind. Does anyone have the right to do wrong. I know we have the freedom to do wrong, But the right.? What is right is usually determined by what is objectively conducive to the well being of society. is right. If same sex marriage is objectively conducive to the well being of society, how is it good for society. where do we get people to create society. Do we mess up the natural order of male and female? Do we trade sperm and overies, is this sanity.? If there is no normal society is that objectively good for society.? To me is appears that the union of same sex in marriage will produce much trouble for society how can this be right? It appears to me that some don’t care whether it is right or wrong, as long as they receive what they want. Is there something wrong with that? What do you think? Is the destruction of the natural family good for society, is it good for the children. The understanding that two people of the same sex can live together, and I f one provides enough support for the other, they should be able to claim them on tax forms. But to ease the problems that would arise for the government from such a situation, it would be more expedient to just let them marry, is that possible, for the sake of expediency, it’s been known to happen? What might that say for the government? Is there a confusion between rights and freedom?
 
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