I think that protestants have taken the authority

[CopticChristian]

Anthony-Please post the scripture reading that would have you arrive at that statement:
The catholic church is the right one Because God Gave his power to it???

come on…Been a catholic church goer since young,** there was never any warmth among people-** just people running in the church making sure they had the nicest clothes on…and today well that is almost all that exists in the catholic churches now. Many people have left .

Does this mean If I am among one that has left I am damned to hell too???
Do you really think God is pleased with the **hypocritical people **that attend…last time I attended mass I was walking out …at the end…when right in front of me this woman was gossiping to her husband about…‘Thats the one with all the kids’ I was one pew away …I walked up put my hand on the end of their pew…as her husband kept nuggin his wife with his elbow. the woman stopped abruptly and stared ahead .
Wow I thought they don’t fear God anymore they gossip right in church about someone right next to them.

The Roman catholic church has and still is creating cradle catholics.

Again there is no warmth in turn no holy spirit. ** Just phony **paying customers allowed.
sorry I am not so young…and I have seen much.

I for a while tried to hang on to a** hope **that in a different place-maybe the Roman catholic churches would be better. That is gone now…
**Most catholics **would not lend a hand to feed the poor, comfort people who need comforting and so on.

I am sure it exists in other christian churches as well…I experienced another christian church once-and was not impressed either right away!

**I say People who truly believe in Jesus Christ-Fear the Lord-Love the Lord with all of their heart and souls…would never say WE are the right ones! **
Whether that be catholic luthern ect.

Anthony please post the scripture that you feel states Gods power is in the right church, which you say is catholic?

Personally I adored all of the apostles and their commitment and Love for Our Lord…but personally I loved John-That man could preach …with true faith…no fear of man…He was impressive.

Just like me… lol

You have had and share a sad experience that does not equate to “all”, just to you.

Your assessment of lack of warmth suggests you should have found a Church that suited you. I know that there are many Catholic Churches I can go to and many do not suit me. The one I go to suits me fine and what you say you have experienced I experience the opposite.

Many people leave for many different reasons. Many people come in for many different reasons. The fact and reality is that the Catholic Population is not getting smaller it is getting larger. Have you not heard in America the so called Protestant majority is dwindling. The minimal number of Catholics in the USA has and will continue to grow. In Australia where the Catholics were forbidden to practice and were forced to attend Anglican services the number are about 24%. The Protestant countries of the Reformation has a large, increasing sizeable number. Everywhere that Protestants tried to destroy the Church Catholics have prospered. The original colonies that were predominantly Protestant have ever increasing numbers of Catholics and many of the original colonies are now predominantly Catholic.

Hypocrisy is a sin that exists everywhere. Does this surprise you? Paul pointed out in the letter to the Romans that there are those that are not adhering to the criteria for what it was they were called for…

O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Imagine attending services in Corinth with drunkards, fornicators, adulterers and all manner of sinners. The Church is filled with sinners as is the world. Does this surprise you?

The Church is the mystery hidden for all ages, the pillar and foundation of truth, the mystery by which the manifest wisdom of God is known to the angels and the means by which God calls all to be reconciled. The answer to your question is this. If the Body of Christ is the Church and there is only one Christ there then must be only one Church. Where do you think that Church might be?

Measure the Church by St. Catherine of Sienna, Thomas Aquinas, Mother Theresa, John Paul II, not the lukewarm hypocrites…for these are everywhere. Which Church in the world has produced people like these…find the truth and you find it.

Tell St. Paul, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Hippolytus, Justin Martyr and the rest that they should not stand up and say…hey we got the real deal here…shout it loud:thumbsup:

 

[wisdomseeker]

Anthony-Please post the scripture reading that would have you arrive at that statement:
The catholic church is the right one Because God Gave his power to it???

come on…Been a catholic church goer since young, there was never any warmth among people- just people running in the church making sure they had the nicest clothes on…and today well that is almost all that exists in the catholic churches now. Many people have left .

Does this mean If I am among one that has left I am damned to hell too???
Do you really think God is pleased with the hypocritical people that attend…last time I attended mass I was walking out …at the end…when right in front of me this woman was gossiping to her husband about…‘Thats the one with all the kids’ I was one pew away …I walked up put my hand on the end of their pew…as her husband kept nuggin his wife with his elbow. the woman stopped abruptly and stared ahead .
Wow I thought they don’t fear God anymore they gossip right in church about someone right next to them.

The Roman catholic church has and still is creating cradle catholics.

Again there is no warmth in turn no holy spirit. Just phony paying customers allowed.
sorry I am not so young…and I have seen much.

I for a while tried to hang on to a hope that in a different place-maybe the Roman catholic churches would be better. That is gone now…

Most catholics would not lend a hand to feed the poor, comfort people who need comforting and so on.

I am sure it exists in other christian churches as well…I experienced another christian church once-and was not impressed either right away!

I say People who truly believe in Jesus Christ-Fear the Lord-Love the Lord with all of their heart and souls…would never say WE are the right ones!

Whether that be catholic luthern ect.

Anthony please post the scripture that you feel states Gods power is in the right church, which you say is catholic?

Personally I adored all of the apostles and their commitment and Love for Our Lord…but personally I loved John-That man could preach …with true faith…no fear of man…He was impressive.

Just like me… lol

If one is in need of more attention than others than this could be a problem for them. I for example, go to Mass not to be greeted or noticed by others, but to have my attention on God alone.
The Church was named Catholic, it was so to dfifer from the heretics at the time and today. dont expect the Bible to contain everything. that is why we have the Church, the Bible had to stop at certain point. But the Church is the one to continue on teaching all men the Truth Jesus gave His Apostles. Just think what would have happened if Jesus had not built a Church.
You mention the wrong of Catholics but I have not seeing you mention how much Catholics have suffered in the hands of outsiders until this day.
Jesus suffered and died speaking the Truth, He will expect HIs Church to do the same, for that the Saints of the Church have given their lives.
You think that because some Catholics dont behave so holy, the Church does not hold the Truth. Well, well, just think of the Jews the people of God, how many times they did evil before God, yet God has always been faithfull to HIs people and never abandoned them to go after a better people. there is no better people, only what you see.

The Truth that the CC is the only Church found by Christ mus be said to everyone, so they know the Truth. We cannot mislead people into believing in a lie and let them stay with whatever they have when there is a Church found by Christ where everyman should be.

you are more concerned on how man behaves than with the Truth of God. God did not chose you and me because we are perfect people, but because He wants us to change to be an example for others. Just think of the time of the Apostles how chaotic it was trying to change pagans into the Judaism culture, the culture of God. Just think of that, today is the same. specially with the all the heresies popping up everywhere, protestantism, modernism, liberalism, individualism, science, relativism(there is no Truth) and so forth… it is not easy for Catholics to hold on to the Truth with all these influences all around them.

The Church is bleeding today with so much suffering, I hope you can see that. the CC does not go around crying about her sufferings, so people think that everything is good.

just think how much evil from governments, nations, emperors, kings the Church has suffered and have our people killed, yet no one cares to talk about it, they only talk about how evil Catholics are. Catholics have the right to defend themselves even it is with the sword at a times, but if we do it, we are evill people. no one mentions how evil Henry the VIII was to the CC. no one mentions how evil protestants have been to Catholics, it is always the CC that is bad. Give me a break. it is sad that so many Catholics dont see the works of satan against the CC.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stick to the topic of the OP please

 

[JustaServant]

From that perspective the approach of “mainstream fundamentalism”, that Bible is the final authority make sense. I believe that this shall be a solid common ground between us.

Where in the Bible does it say IT (the Bible) is the final and only authority?

 

[adf417]

Also…if the bible is the final authority, how can you reconcile the approx. 30 years from Pentecost to the 1st NT writings or for that matter approx. 120 years to the last NT writings, or for that matter the approx. 300 years to the canonization of the NT? This, to me, makes a clear and profound point to oral and sacred tradition.

 

[sallybutler]

Also…if the bible is the final authority, how can you reconcile the approx. 30 years from Pentecost to the 1st NT writings or for that matter approx. 120 years to the last NT writings, or for that matter the approx. 300 years to the canonization of the NT? This, to me, makes a clear and profound point to oral and sacred tradition.

I think, given the insistence also on the KJV, you also need to add what about the years until 1611. I also always wonder what are the people of non-English speaking countries using now since they don’t read English.

 

[15thClub]

OK…let’s agree that the Bible IS the final authority. What next? The confessional Protestants and the evangelical Protestants stop their argument right there and as such, fall into this mistaken belief that one can “make it up as you go along.” Both the historical record, the historical context and the actual meaning of the text in the language it is written e.g. Hebrew, Latin, Greek must be considered first. To think that one can work off the English only text is shoddy analysis and the actions of the lazy. The Gospels, The Acts of the Apostles, and the Epistles in particular Romans provides or a definitive structure for a church in order to maximize the evangelistic outreach. So given this, are there some Protestants out there who would like to respond?

 

[CopticChristian]

Thank you, Antony V for clear summary of Catholic Church perception and your highlight of major differences with “mainstream fundamentalism”. As no one of your peers did an addition or correction to your post, let’s assume your answer accurately reflects an official Catholic Church theology.

However, there still shall be a common ground between all denominations.

First, I believe, no one church will deny supreme authority of God, the Creator; whose will Jesus came to fulfil on earth.
Next, I will mention authority of Jesus Himself. As the only account of Him we (i.e. people on earth) can find in the Bible, for God’s sake we shall consider Bible’s account of Jesus to be accurate and genuine.

Moreover, your statement that “The Bible has no authority, but is rather an expression of the authority of the Church” stumbles me as it appears that the most important Document of the Church (here: Roman Catholic Church) has no authority, yet somehow the Church does.

**Once the most important document (the Bible), produces by an institution of Authority (the Church) **is deemed a powerless document, that immediately open the gates of doubt about authority of all other documents, produced by mentioned institution and doubt about the seriousness of the institution itself.

From that perspective the approach of “mainstream fundamentalism”, that Bible is the final authority make sense. I believe that this shall be a solid common ground between us.

Please clarify.

Sincerely yours,

Itiswritten98

Fallacies of logic and understanding are produced with improper understanding.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

What came first the Bible or the Church?

If the Church was the mystery hidden for all ages as Paul says, then there was always a Church and if you like an Old Testament Church…then with that understanding if it was hidden for all ages anything that was produced in writing was produced by that Church…if as all believe this writing is the word of God…

Paul answers the question…he never once says that Scripture was the mystery hidden for all ages, that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth, that the Bible is how God reveals his manifold wisdom…he does say this about the Church…

Rethink…"the important document as you say…so the Bible…produces an institution the Church causes all of your thinking to error on the side of what you percieve the Bible to be. This does not equate to right thinking, what is known from reading the Bible and how we are told God has acted…

God kept the Church hidden for all ages, not the Bible…

 

[wisdomseeker]

Fallacies of logic and understanding are produced with improper understanding.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

What came first the Bible or the Church?

If the Church was the mystery hidden for all ages as Paul says, then there was always a Church and if you like an Old Testament Church…then with that understanding if it was hidden for all ages anything that was produced in writing was produced by that Church…if as all believe this writing is the word of God…

Paul answers the question…he never once says that Scripture was the mystery hidden for all ages, that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth, that the Bible is how God reveals his manifold wisdom…he does say this about the Church…

Rethink…"the important document as you say…so the Bible…produces an institution the Church causes all of your thinking to error on the side of what you percieve the Bible to be. This does not equate to right thinking, what is known from reading the Bible and how we are told God has acted…

God kept the Church hidden for all ages, not the Bible…

Indeed. protestants ignores the Holy Church of God. they do this because they are not in the Church, therefore they use the Bible to compensate for the loss.

 

[Nicea325]

Fallacies of logic and understanding are produced with improper understanding.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

What came first the Bible or the Church?

If the Church was the mystery hidden for all ages as Paul says, then there was always a Church and if you like an Old Testament Church…then with that understanding if it was hidden for all ages anything that was produced in writing was produced by that Church…if as all believe this writing is the word of God…

Paul answers the question…he never once says that Scripture was the mystery hidden for all ages, that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth, that the Bible is how God reveals his manifold wisdom…he does say this about the Church…

Rethink…"the important document as you say…so the Bible…produces an institution the Church causes all of your thinking to error on the side of what you percieve the Bible to be. This does not equate to right thinking, what is known from reading the Bible and how we are told God has acted…

God kept the Church hidden for all ages, not the Bible…

Exactly! As I have said for years, if the Bible was intended to be the final authority,strange how Jesus (God incarnated as man) never once mentions a word of it? I find that very odd and why would God leave something so vital out of his plan for us? On the contrary, he did found His church and gave it the authority.

 

[Kristin234]

Okay so I am just trying to understand this.

Let’s say the Catholic Church came out and said that gay marriage isn’t a sin and they approve of it** (I’m not saying they will every say that I am just hypothetically speaking).
**
Would Catholics think that is okay even if the Bible says it isn’t? Since the Church is the one that has the final authority would Catholics listen to the Church and ignore that Bible?

I know that people will say well the Catholic Church can’t contradict the Bible, but like I said, hypothetically speaking. If they did come out and say something like that Catholics would have to listen to the Church since they believe that the Church has the final authority and not the Bible, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Okay so I am just trying to understand this.

Let’s say the Catholic Church came out and said that gay marriage isn’t a sin and they approve of it** (I’m not saying they will every say that I am just hypothetically speaking).
**
Would Catholics think that is okay even if the Bible says it isn’t? Since the Church is the one that has the final authority would Catholics listen to the Church and ignore that Bible?

I know that people will say well the Catholic Church can’t contradict the Bible, but like I said, hypothetically speaking. If they did come out and say something like that Catholics would have to listen to the Church since they believe that the Church has the final authority and not the Bible, right?

Since we’re speaking hypothetically, I would answer: yes, we would follow the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Incidentally, we don’t really need to speak in hypotheticals, because we have an *actual *example. The Bible says that women should be silent in church (1 Cor 14:34), but the Church has spoken on this and women, of course, are allowed to speak in church.

We understand the Scriptures through the lens of the Church which preserved and gave us these Scriptures.

(Unless your church says that women must be silent, then you, also are following your church and not the Bible as well. )

So if the Bible says , we understand through the guidance of the Church.

 

[CopticChristian]

Okay so I am just trying to understand this.

Let’s say the Catholic Church came out and said that gay marriage isn’t a sin and they approve of it** (I’m not saying they will every say that I am just hypothetically speaking).
**
Would Catholics think that is okay even if the Bible says it isn’t? Since the Church is the one that has the final authority would Catholics listen to the Church and ignore that Bible?

I know that people will say well the Catholic Church can’t contradict the Bible, but like I said, hypothetically speaking. If they did come out and say something like that Catholics would have to listen to the Church since they believe that the Church has the final authority and not the Bible, right?

I believe and the Catholic Church teaches that the Church is the body of Christ with Christ as the head. If the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, the mystery hidden for all ages, the mystery by which the manifold wisdom of God is known and I believe and see that the Church has never errored on issues of morals as this is your example…to suggest a hypothetical as you have proposed is a non-sequitor.

Ask this question. Would God ever approve of sin? This is the answer to your question.

 

[pablope]

Okay so I am just trying to understand this.

Let’s say the Catholic Church came out and said that gay marriage isn’t a sin and they approve of it** (I’m not saying they will every say that I am just hypothetically speaking).
**
Would Catholics think that is okay even if the Bible says it isn’t? Since the Church is the one that has the final authority would Catholics listen to the Church and ignore that Bible?

I know that people will say well the Catholic Church can’t contradict the Bible, but like I said, hypothetically speaking. If they did come out and say something like that Catholics would have to listen to the Church since they believe that the Church has the final authority and not the Bible, right?

Let me give you another situation:

There is a legal conflict…the US Congress says one thing, the President says one thing…cannot agree…the US Supreme Court steps in…interprets the legal issue via the US constitution…who would you follow, Congress, President or Supreme Court?

Going back to the Bible…how can the Bible exercise its purported authority? Which is its voice?

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by jswanstr

Christ came to Paul and spoke to him. Paul was certainly not in the “Church”. **

So, based on this you try to justify protestantism?

If the Bible is what you go for the Truth, all that is in the Bible is True by the way, do you see as Jesus telling protestants different interpretation to go by? how do you explain the disparity of interpretation on what the Bible says? Is God purposedly causing confusing among Non Catholics?

 

[Kristin234]

I believe and the Catholic Church teaches that the Church is the body of Christ with Christ as the head. If the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, the mystery hidden for all ages, the mystery by which the manifold wisdom of God is known and I believe and see that the Church has never errored on issues of morals as this is your example…to suggest a hypothetical as you have proposed is a non-sequitor.

Ask this question. Would God ever approve of sin? This is the answer to your question.

Oh, I know God would never approve of sin. That is why I said it was hypothetical. Like I said, I’m never saying that would happen.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Oh, I know God would never approve of sin. That is why I said it was hypothetical. Like I said, I’m never saying that would happen.

Lactantius

“It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject” (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

 

[eo_chibears]

from Jesus the Christ and gave to the Bible.

I see this when they insist that the Bible is the final authority. What do you think people?

Taken the authority? Jesus himself started the Catholic church. Protestants are heretical in their teachings. I don’t see how they took anything.

 

[Kristin234]

Lactantius

“It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject” (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

Okay? What are you trying to get at and what does that have anything to do with what you quoted me saying?

Thank you for using this verse and implying that I do not have hope and will not gain salvation because I am not Catholic

“In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”

 

[wisdomseeker]

Okay? What are you trying to get at and what does that have anything to do with what you quoted me saying?

Thank you for using this verse and implying that I do not have hope and will not gain salvation because I am not Catholic

“In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”

You cannot understand how this is related to what you said?