I think the Catholic Church needs some change

[bstorm]

In respect to Mass and Confirmation.

I think Mass isn’t long enough. I believe it should be a standard 2 hour mass across the board. One hour of mass, one hour of bible study. I find many people look for churches that have the shortest mass times and that is just wrong.

When I made my Confirmation(1996), all we did was have weekly Wednesday Catechism classes. No tests and the majority of the time, the teacher, or Priest wasn’t even there. So, we mainly just sat there for about 20 minutes and then we all left. I think Confirmation should not be made until after you turn 18, graduate high school, and take a year to do a “mission”, kind of like the LDS.

I very strongly disagree with you. Sunday masses are, in general, actually too long. I really wish it was easy to find a parish with a mass that takes under one hour. One can give a good, informative, educational homily in 10 minutes or less. There are many people that have to work at least on some Saturdays and Sundays of the month - doctors, policemens, nurses, firefighters, store clerks, … These people do not have a choice in the matter. Do you know how difficult it is for them to fulfill the Sunday obligation when masses go on forever? My husband’s profession requires him to work on the weekends. There have been times when the only mass he was able to go to started at 7 am (Saturday masses are too early for him) and he had to be at work at 8 am. Even the silent mass would run for so long that he had two choices only - either leave before the mass is over or be late for work. Another issue is attending the mass with children. There is really no reason why mass should go on for longer than one hour.

 

[bstorm]

LDS and Baptist churches have 4 hour services. How do you think married couples with young children handle that?

Is it obligatory for LDS and Baptist church members to attend these services every single Sunday? In their understanding, do they commit a mortal sin if they do not show up?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Is it obligatory for LDS and Baptist church members to attend these services every single Sunday? In their understanding, do they commit a mortal sin if they do not show up?

Baptists don’t have such a thing a mortal sin. I don’t know about LDS. No, not going to church would not be a mortal sin.

 

[tarboy]

you seem to be saying mass should be dumbed down to the lowest common deominator,
to perfect it for those who don’t even have 60 min to focus on God, ON SUNDAY!

Do you honestly believe 10 min of religous education each week is enough?
PEW research indicates Catholics do need more catechism, they are not studying on their own.

Somehow Baptists have figured out how to accomodate both bible study and children, and they don’t charge extra for the catechism. Alos, since their bible study is mainstream instead of a special class, they get better attendance.

I very strongly disagree with you. Sunday masses are, in general, actually too long. I really wish it was easy to find a parish with a mass that takes under one hour. One can give a good, informative, educational homily in 10 minutes or less. There are many people that have to work at least on some Saturdays and Sundays of the month - doctors, policemens, nurses, firefighters, store clerks, … These people do not have a choice in the matter. Do you know how difficult it is for them to fulfill the Sunday obligation when masses go on forever? My husband’s profession requires him to work on the weekends. There have been times when the only mass he was able to go to started at 7 am (Saturday masses are too early for him) and he had to be at work at 8 am. Even the silent mass would run for so long that he had two choices only - either leave before the mass is over or be late for work. Another issue is attending the mass with children. There is really no reason why mass should go on for longer than one hour.

 

[maryjk]

I’d like to see us follow our Eastern brothers and sisters and baptize/confirm at the same time. At the outside I’d like to see children confirmed when they are 7-8. They need the graces of the sacrament as they are maturing, especially in their teen years.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

We’re not LDS.

Read about the sacrament of Confirmation in the Catechism: old.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt1art2.shtml

Read what canon law says about who can receive the sacrament:

Can. 891 The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise. Source]

In some dioceses the sacraments have been restored to their proper order and 7-8 year olds are confirmed before they receive their First Communion. In other dioceses it’s deferred, but not past the age of 16:

Complemenary Norm: The National Conference of Catholic Bishops, in accord with the prescriptions of canon 891, hereby decrees that the Sacrament of Confirmation in the Latin Rite shall be conferred between the age of discretion and about sixteen years of age, within the limits determined by the diocesan bishop and with regard for the legitimate exceptions given in canon 891. Source]

I’d like to see us follow our Eastern brothers and sisters and baptize/confirm at the same time. At the outside I’d like to see children confirmed when they are 7-8. They need the graces of the sacrament as they are maturing, especially in their teen years.

We’re also not BAPTISTS. Or any other of the denominations

 

[bstorm]

you seem to be saying mass should be dumbed down to the lowest common deominator,
to perfect it for those who don’t even have 60 min to focus on God, ON SUNDAY!

Do you honestly believe 10 min of religous education each week is enough?
PEW research indicates Catholics do need more catechism, they are not studying on their own.

Sermon is not an important part of the mass at all. Mass is valid with or without the sermon. I do not believe that 10 minutes of religious education is enough, but Mass is not for religious education or catechism or Bible study. In my experience, long sermons are not usually exactly informative and often short messages are more memorable. But before all, mass is for remembering and re-living the sacrifice of Christ. I am usually not bothered or disappointed by bad sermons, because that is not what I come to mass for.

As for not having time for God on Sunday, your post comes across slightly insulting. How would like to go to an emergency room on Sunday and not have a doctor on call there because he is spending four hours in the church? There are catholic doctors, nurses, firefighters and some of them are struggling to fulfill their Sunday obligation because somebody decided that a 7 am mass should last for over an hour. There are also people that care for sick relatives for whom it might not be easy to spend a long time in the Church. I wish there was a parish in each area that would have at least one early morning 6am or 6:30 am Sunday or a late Saturday mass so these people can attend. I am not saying that every mass should last under one hour, but I wish there was at least one. I normally do not care about the length of the mass, but this has been a very difficult issue for my husband, hence the strong opinion.

Also, to make each Sunday mass last for 2 hours would be very burdensome for many people, even those that in principle have a lot of time on Sunday. It would not be beneficial at all and the end result would be a decrease in the Sunday mass attendance. You will not solve any perceived problems with the religious education of catholics, you will only create new ones.

One more thing - have you thought about the poor priest that is supposed to preside over these two hour long masses? My previous parish had a single priest and 2 churches, with 2 Saturday masses and 3 Sunday masses. I did not envy his weekend schedule at all.

 

[bstorm]

you seem to be saying mass should be dumbed down to the lowest common deominator,
to perfect it for those who don’t even have 60 min to focus on God, ON SUNDAY!

Do you honestly believe 10 min of religous education each week is enough?
PEW research indicates Catholics do need more catechism, they are not studying on their own.

Somehow Baptists have figured out how to accomodate both bible study and children, and they don’t charge extra for the catechism. Alos, since their bible study is mainstream instead of a special class, they get better attendance.

One more thing - the main, the most important part of the mas is the Eucharist, it is a Sacrament. While our protestant brothers and sisters are admittedly much better at Bible study, I would be very hesitant about modeling our catholic mass after their services. While on the surface they might look alike, they are different in the substance. There is nothing more amazing than the consecration of the bread and wine that becomes the body and blood of Christ. That is the center, the heart of the mass, not the sermon. 45 minute sermons somebody mentioned before, in my opinion, actually take away from the mass since they make the Eucharist a footnote rather than the center. Sadly, many people leave right after the communion not even waiting for the end of the mass and the longer the mass, the more people leave. Something to think about.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

One more thing - the main, the most important part of the mas is the Eucharist, it is a Sacrament. While our protestant brothers and sisters are admittedly much better at Bible study, I would be very hesitant about modeling our catholic mass after their services. While on the surface they might look alike, they are different in the substance. There is nothing more amazing than the consecration of the bread and wine that becomes the body and blood of Christ. That is the center, the heart of the mass, not the sermon. **45 minute sermons somebody mentioned before, in my opinion, actually take away from the mass since they make the Eucharist a footnote rather than the center. **Sadly, many people leave right after the communion not even waiting for the end of the mass and the longer the mass, the more people leave. Something to think about.

Exactly - it makes the homily the centerpiece, it makes the priest a showman, the Main Event, the Center Ring. It delegates Jesus to the end of the Mass. The homily should NEVER outdo Our Lord Jesus Christ in Body and Blood.

 

[LilyM]

you seem to be saying mass should be dumbed down to the lowest common deominator,
to perfect it for those who don’t even have 60 min to focus on God, ON SUNDAY!

Do you honestly believe 10 min of religous education each week is enough?
PEW research indicates Catholics do need more catechism, they are not studying on their own.

Somehow Baptists have figured out how to accomodate both bible study and children, and they don’t charge extra for the catechism. Alos, since their bible study is mainstream instead of a special class, they get better attendance.

Short homilies appear to have been enough for our ancestors. I don’t think long homilies have ever been the norm. Masses may have been longer, but usually due to longer prayers, more ritual such as incensing, and more/longer singing.

Of course Catholic parents were better made to understand that their home, and not the Mass, was to be the primary place for religious education of children, and that it was not a responsibility to be palmed off onto the priest at Mass or the teacher at school.

 

[PeterJohn]

The majority of people I speak with, agree with the past 3 popes and also with the USCCB in that “We the catholic people of the west” need to reaffirm our belifes and reinvigorate ourselves to find true joy in the name of God and in his Holy Eucharistic meal.

We are trying to survive in this secular river of 2012 and the secular waters are slowly dragging us down. 70+% of Catholics DO NOT attend mass regularly.

The 20+% of us need to, one by one, re evangelize these lapsed members.
The best way to evangelize is to have Joy! Find anything You can to be excited about our Holy Church, God or the Eucharist. And become infected with excitement and draw people in! This is the main mission of the church since the apostles. The Jews the apostles evangelized became excited when they were told, “The Messiah has come”…
Why are we any less excited? This secular world keeps trying to convince us that religion is a private matter, well it’s not. Christianity is a public matter, not to be hidden inside your sole. Jesus came to light a fire, so let’s keep it going. god bless.

 

[Schism_hater]

Exactly - it makes the homily the centerpiece, it makes the priest a showman, the Main Event, the Center Ring. It delegates Jesus to the end of the Mass. The homily should NEVER outdo Our Lord Jesus Christ in Body and Blood.

The idea of a homily “outdoing” the Eucharist is ridiculous. Both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are essential. In late medieval times, people became fixated on the consecration, and the homily and scripture readings were grossly negelected, and the result was that the spirituality of those times was debased and superstitious.

 

[bstorm]

The idea of a homily “outdoing” the Eucharist is ridiculous. Both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are essential. In late medieval times, people became fixated on the consecration, and the homily and scripture readings were grossly negelected, and the result was that the spirituality of those times was debased and superstitious.

Homily is but one part of the Liturgy of the Word. It is required on Sundays and Holy days of obligation and encouraged (not required) during the week days. Even on Sundays it might be omitted for a serious reason. The Liturgy of the Word is essential to the mass, the homily is not.

I do not believe the homily should be skipped and I think it is important to have one on Sunday. At the same time it should not be ridiculously long (and 45 minutes is ridiculously long) and it should not be considered the main point of the mass.

 

[Balian]

LDS and Baptist churches have 4 hour services. How do you think married couples with young children handle that?

I have to respectfully disagree. I attended Baptist churches most of my life and the longest service I was in was 50 minutes tops. I also attended a LDS service as a favor to a Mormon friend once and it was longer but less than two hours. I guess you were misinformed.

 

[Mummsie]

OP,

I think your intent is good. We need to learn the Bible. And, it would be convenient to “offer” a Bible study after mass. Offer, not, Require. It would be a nice way to “Keep Holy the Sabbath”.

As far as the 1 year long missions go, I do think we need to put a stronger emphasis on our youth. But, like most of the others said, 1 year is too long and globally not so easy to implement. But, we do need something to fire up our youth. Spending some time, (like a week or two) in service to others would certainly teach them valuable lessons…in the Giving, in the Work, in the communal gatherings with their peers and leaders. In the ideal world, our youth would be learning much of this at home; but, in reality it’s not happening.

We have to do something. If not universally, then in our diocese.

BTW, I do like your ‘out of the box’ thinking. God Bless.

 

[Nec5]

joshkt79:

I think the Catholic Church needs some change.

 

[homegrowntwinki]

Well yeah it needs some change, it’s the most corrupt thing in the world next to politics, and they both stem from one key source. Control.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The idea of a homily “outdoing” the Eucharist is ridiculous. Both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are essential. In late medieval times, people became fixated on the consecration, and the homily and scripture readings were grossly negelected, and the result was that the spirituality of those times was debased and superstitious.

It’s not ridiculous. When a priest gives a seminar, takes up all of the time usually allotted to the Sacrifice of the Eucharist and then some, he turns the focus onto himself and changes the whole balance of the Mass. I know because I have watched this happening for 14 years now. Gradually, we have lost most of the people who used to run ministries, used to be faithful donors, etc. Father is stubbornly determined to keep us in Mass for 90 minutes. All of the Mass times had to be changed when he arrived, because of the total chaos in the parking lot - the next Mass would be due to start and he was still at the consecration of the previous Mass. Plus he has a penchant for starting late on top of that.

His homilies are very good, but more like what should be a lecture in seminary. The point tends to get lost after the first 20-25 minutes. He likes to hear himself talk, and doesn’t edit himself very much. I think he’s over-qualified as parish priest and should be a seminary professor. He’d have lots of time to think, study, and talk to students. But I’m not the Bishop, and so here we are. We had 3 Masses on Easter, compared to the 7 at the other nearby parish where a lot of our former parishioners have gone. And ALL of those 7 were full, including the music-less Mass at 7 a.m.!

Anyway, I invite you to come to my parish and experience it for yourself. When most of the Mass time is taken up by a homily, it’s obvious that the Eucharistic sacrifice becomes the thing you do at the end, not the main focus of the Mass.

 

[cargau]

In respect to Mass and Confirmation.

I think Mass isn’t long enough. I believe it should be a standard 2 hour mass across the board. One hour of mass, one hour of bible study. I find many people look for churches that have the shortest mass times and that is just wrong.

When I made my Confirmation(1996), all we did was have weekly Wednesday Catechism classes. No tests and the majority of the time, the teacher, or Priest wasn’t even there. So, we mainly just sat there for about 20 minutes and then we all left. I think Confirmation should not be made until after you turn 18, graduate high school, and take a year to do a “mission”, kind of like the LDS.

The Mass is obligatory, Bible study, while it should be encouraged, is not obligitory. As to Confirmation…I can’t think of a better time for anyone to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit than during high school. Lots of challenges.

I do think we need to do a better job of providing spiritual guidance and support post Confirmation. A lot of parishes are moving in this direction but many college profs are providing instruction that is not enlightened by Christ. Our kids need all the support they can get…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The Mass is obligatory, Bible study, while it should be encouraged, is not obligitory. As to Confirmation…I can’t think of a better time for anyone to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit than during high school. Lots of challenges.

I do think we need to do a better job of providing spiritual guidance and support post Confirmation. A lot of parishes are moving in this direction but many college profs are providing instruction that is not enlightened by Christ. Our kids need all the support they can get…

I had it explained to me on another thread, that confirmation was never meant to be the “graduation” sacrament, and that a lot of young adults feel that once they go through their confirmation, they are “done,” graduated, got the degree, that’s it. I am now of the mind that confirmation should actually happen BEFORE the First Holy Communion and not after. It puts the Eucharist back in its proper place as the pinnacle of sacraments. There’s no reason confirmation should be delayed until late jr. high or high school. JMO after consideration.