I think the JW's are the "most right" religion out there

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Jaded27:
I think the JW’s are the “most right” religion out there
Thought I’d start a new thread and use your sentiment to start it off. I promise I will attempt to be civil in this thread. If you note untoward behavior, please call me on it, OK?

I forget where in this forum I posted a bunch of quotes from Early Church Fathers and Historians on the Divinity of Christ. The JW’s deny the divinity of Christ. For now can we talk about this subject (The Divinity of Christ) and the JW’s ideas on it? I put forth that the JW’s do not follow historical Christianity in this tenant, as backed up my previous quotes. How then can the JW’s be “the most right” if they do not put forth what the earliest Christians put forth?
 
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b_justb:
Thought I’d start a new thread and use your sentiment to start it off. I promise I will attempt to be civil in this thread. If you note untoward behavior, please call me on it, OK?

I forget where in this forum I posted a bunch of quotes from Early Church Fathers and Historians on the Divinity of Christ. The JW’s deny the divinity of Christ. For now can we talk about this subject (The Divinity of Christ) and the JW’s ideas on it? I put forth that the JW’s do not follow historical Christianity in this tenant, as backed up my previous quotes. How then can the JW’s be “the most right” if they do not put forth what the earliest Christians put forth?
Not to shorten this thread at the very beginning, but haven’t you answered your own question? 😃
 
I’d like to know the answer to why… Because

-Celebrations of the day you were born are forbidden

-Celebrations of MOTHER’s Day and FATHER’s Day are forbidden (correct me if I am wrong?)

-Christmas is not allowed to be celebrated

-American Flag is considered to be an idol and therefore, from the DEVIL?

-Discouraging Higher Education (most jobs require a college degree, btw)

-blood transfusions that would save your life are forbidden

so, how can the JW religion be so right if they are so restrictive on what their members can do?
 
My view on the JWs is that they cannot be ‘the most right’ because they had to mistranslate the Bible to find the ‘truth.’
 
I agree that a discussion regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ would be a good place to start. If the earliest Christians (let’s go with the first few hundred centuries) did not believe that Jesus was divine, then a case could be made for Charles T. Russell (founder of the witness) rejecting Christ’s divinity some 1900 years after He died. However, if the earliest Chrisitans believed that Jesus was God - who is Mr. Russell to disagree?
 
carol marie:
I agree that a discussion regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ would be a good place to start. If the earliest Christians (let’s go with the first few hundred centuries) did not believe that Jesus was divine, then a case could be made for Charles T. Russell (founder of the witness) rejecting Christ’s divinity some 1900 years after He died. However, if the earliest Chrisitans believed that Jesus was God - who is Mr. Russell to disagree?
What is the divinity of christ?

There is only ONE God. It says it right in the bible. That is Jehovah. What’s to debate about here?
 
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jediliz:
I’d like to know the answer to why… Because

-Celebrations of the day you were born are forbidden

-Celebrations of MOTHER’s Day and FATHER’s Day are forbidden (correct me if I am wrong?)

-Christmas is not allowed to be celebrated

-American Flag is considered to be an idol and therefore, from the DEVIL?

-Discouraging Higher Education (most jobs require a college degree, btw)

-blood transfusions that would save your life are forbidden

so, how can the JW religion be so right if they are so restrictive on what their members can do?
I’ll answer these later. I’m at work now and don’t have time for a lengthy post like this. BUT we do not discourage higher education. That is a myth perpetuated by a few elders taking it on themselves to say going to college is bad.

And we do not believe the flag is the devil. I will not pledge my allegiance to a piece of cloth. I will only pledge my allegiance to God.

And to answer your last question - would a religion be “right” if they let their members do whatever they wanted?? Oh, go kill people. That’s fine. Have abortions. That’s grreat. Cheat on your husband and your wife? why not? Um, no. Restrictions are a good thing. And I’m glad my religion is one of the few to actually have any at all.
 
That’s not what I meant, Jaded. I meant restrictions on celebrating a birthday. For example, school children who bring treats for birthdays…the JW children have to sit out because its pagan ritual to celebrate a birthday. :rolleyes: That doesn’t seem fair. How can eating a cupcake or a a cookie be satanic?

That’s what I am talking about. I’m not talking about abortion - I’m talking about celebrating a holiday like Thanksgiving. Or your birthday.

I just called and wished my niece a happy birthday. And I’ll call and wish my other niece a happy birthday later this week.

Proof for divinity of Jesus:

Matthew 16: 13-16, 20

*Who do people say the Son of Man is? They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the **Messiah, the Son of GOD.” ***Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.

and

Luke 2: 27 - 32

Simeon certainly knew something:

**He came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to perform the custom of the law in regard to him, he took him into his arms and blessed GOD, saying: Now Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word for my eyes have seen your salvation, which you prepared in sight of all the peoples, a light for the revelation to the Gentiles, and glory for your people Israel.

**and

Matthew 3: 17

After Jesus was baptised:

**And a voice came from the heavens, saying “This is my beloved SON, with whom I am well pleased,”

**
 
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jediliz:
That’s not what I meant, Jaded. I meant restrictions on celebrating a birthday. For example, school children who bring treats for birthdays…the JW children have to sit out because its pagan ritual to celebrate a birthday. :rolleyes: That doesn’t seem fair. How can eating a cupcake or a a cookie be satanic?

That’s what I am talking about. I’m not talking about abortion - I’m talking about celebrating a holiday like Thanksgiving. Or your birthday.

I just called and wished my niece a happy birthday. And I’ll call and wish my other niece a happy birthday later this week.

Proof for divinity of Jesus:

Matthew 16: 13-16, 20

*Who do people say the Son of Man is? They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the **Messiah, the Son of GOD.” ***Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.

and

Luke 2: 27 - 32

Simeon certainly knew something:

**He came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to perform the custom of the law in regard to him, he took him into his arms and blessed GOD, saying: Now Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word for my eyes have seen your salvation, which you prepared in sight of all the peoples, a light for the revelation to the Gentiles, and glory for your people Israel.

**and

Matthew 3: 17

After Jesus was baptised:

**And a voice came from the heavens, saying “This is my beloved SON, with whom I am well pleased,”

**
The problem here, jediliz, is that you and I may take these passages for proof of the divinity of Jesus, but JWs will not. Even the clearest Biblical statements of Jesus’ divinity are not accepted by JWs:

John 1:1 is deliberately mistranslated in the JW Bible to deny Jesus’ divinity.

John 20:28 is worth asking JWs about, if for no other reason than to hear the creative answer. They will state that Thomas used “and My God!” as an exclamation of surprise (obviously not possible), or that Thomas somehow repositioned himself after the words “My Lord” and then gestured to Heaven to clarify that he was not referring to Jesus.

Luther promoted Sola Scriptura; the JW translators gave us Scriptura Tortissima.
 
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severinus:
The problem here, jediliz, is that you and I may take these passages for proof of the divinity of Jesus, but JWs will not. Even the clearest Biblical statements of Jesus’ divinity are not accepted by JWs:
]
Um, does divinity mean he is an actual god?

Because if that’s the case then by the scriptures given I don’t see god in there anywhere. I see “son of god” which the witnesses do not argue about.
 
** There is only ONE God. It says it right in the bible. That is Jehovah. What’s to debate about here?

**Hi Jaded. Wow. A lot of posts today. I can hardly keep up with the threads, they’re moving so fast.

Catholics will agree that there is only ONE God. That, really, is what is at the root of the issue.
  • What’s to debate about here?* Well, it’s this: Catholics and the rest of the Christian world believe that Jesus is called God in the New Testament; they believe that attributes only applicable to God are applied to Him, and, and even that Old Testament scriptures about Jehovah are quoted in the New Testament and applied to Christ, and they believe that the early Christians right after the time of the Apostles freely used the word God with reference to Christ.
Reconciling the above facts with the idea that the Father (and also the Holy Spirit) are also called God ; that’s what there is to talk about. I’m sorry that I can’t post scriptures or quotes from the early post-apostolic Christians on this right now, but I’ve tried to get the idea across.

I hope all is well with you. AHF
 
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Jaded27:
What is the divinity of christ?

There is only ONE true God. It says it right in the bible. That is Jehovah. What’s to debate about here?
That’s true… there is only One God - but it’s three persons - The Father, The Son & the Holy Spirit = One God.

And since we’re specifically talking about the divinity of Jesus… here’s proof from God’s word:

“For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty **God, **the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is:9:6

Since there is only one true God - why would Jesus be called the Mighty God? Surely you don’t think he’s a false God?

Ok… now since I’ve been a Jehovah’s Witness. I know what your response is going to be… so I’ll type it for you… Jesus is a “mighty” god (small g) but Jehovah is the Almighty God. (big G)

Let me ask you… who did Isreal worship? Jehovah right? He was their God. Ok… then flip your Bible one page over and read Is: 10:21… it says that a remant of Isreal will return to the Mighty God. Who is this Mighty God that’s being refered to? Jehovah. Yikes… and who is the Mighty God one page back? Jesus. Hmmm… could they both be talking about God? Seems that way doesn’t it? I love to “Reason with the Scriptures” don’t you?

😉 God Bless,
CM
 
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jediliz:
That’s not what I meant, Jaded. I meant restrictions on celebrating a birthday. For example, school children who bring treats for birthdays…the JW children have to sit out because its pagan ritual to celebrate a birthday. :rolleyes: That doesn’t seem fair. How can eating a cupcake or a a cookie be satanic?
It’s not satanic.It’s pagan in origin and agianst bible teachings. Therefore we protect our chidlren from worldly and pagan influences.
I was never left out of things. I got presents and candy and love all year long. It didn’t have to be christmas for me to get a gift. I loved that.

Here are the explanations you asked for:

Birthdays:
Genesis 40:20-22 and Matthew 14:6-10 both give bad examples of birthday parties. According to 2nd Timothy everything in the Bible is there for a reason. It is an example to show us how to live our lives. Therefore JWs do not celebrate birthdays as they are not condoned in the bible. That and another reason I have had explained to me is that focusing on yourself SO MUCH each year isn’t something that should be encouraged. It’s materialistic for one. I find it very odd when my fiancée freaks out because he forgot to get his dad a present for his birthday. Hello, he’s over 50! I’m pretty sure he doesn’t need a shiny new toy.

Mother’s and Father’s day – you should honor your father and your mother every day. Most people do not respect their parents at all. They think giving them a nice card one day a year makes them good children. It does not. There is no need to set aside one day to focus on how great your parents are. Treat them with respect and love every day.

Christmas – there is sooooo much info on this I cannot possibly type it in one post. I’ll give you the highlights. The encyclopedia Americana says: the reason for establishing December 25th as xmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice. . .

Right there in non-JW literature it says that it’s not even Jesus’ birthday. It was picked to correspond to pagan festivals. This along with not celebrating ANY birthdays should be enough. But there’s more.

Matthew 2:1,11,16-note that the bible account does not say that they found Jesus in a manger, as it’s usually represented in Christmas art. When the astrologers arrived (magi to you guys), Jesus and his parents were living in a house.

I like this point particularly as I never want to lie to my children. Make all the excuses you want, but it is lying. Plain and simple:
Depending on where they live, children are told that gifts are brought by santa, st. nick, father Christmas, etc. of course none of these stories is true. Does the telling of such stories build in children a respect for truth, and does such a practice honor Jesus Christ, who taught that God must be worshipped with truth? John 4:23, 24

I’ve already refuted the higher education thing. I went to college, so did my parents, so did many many people my age. It’s simply untrue.

And lastly – blood:

Blood is unclean, as stated in the bible.

Acts 15:29 says to abastain from it. There are many alternatives to blood transfusions. Many many many.
I have a personal experience with a friend who had triplets. The doctors swore up and down one would die without a transfusion. They took the parents to court over it. The parents won and the child is perfectly fine. Often transfusions cause more harm than good. With aids running so rampant in the world I definitely wouldn’t want someone else’s blood in me. We should view that as God would – disgusting to even think about. Oftentimes it is just the easiest way to get someone’s volume up, not necessarily the best.

I have no interest in refuting these as they are facts. You asked, I answered. I’m leaving it at that. I have no wish to argue with any of you. It does nothing to bring you closer to the truth and it simply annoys me. I’m off to enjoy my meeting this evening. Best of luck to you all.
 
carol marie:
I love to “Reason with the Scriptures” don’t you?
Yes I do. I love to “reason” which is why I will not argue further. Thanks.
 
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Jaded27:
Um, does divinity mean he is an actual god?

Because if that’s the case then by the scriptures given I don’t see god in there anywhere. I see “son of god” which the witnesses do not argue about.
  1. Then why the mistranslation in the NWT of John 1:1?
  2. What about John 20:28? The Greek here says absolutely nothing about ‘son’: apekrithe Thomas kai eipen auto O kurios mou kai o theos mou.
And yes, divinity in my post means actual, real, genuine God.
 
Birthdays - The scriptures that you cited are not a prohibition on birthdays. It’s true that everything is in the Bible for a reason, just make sure that the reason you ascribe to them is not the wrong one. Consider the example of women’s cosmetics in the Bible; in the great majority of times (perhaps all, I think) they are spoken of negatively. Is that to be taken as a prohibition on cosmetics? Why the difference? Also, there are many respected Bible commentators that believe that in Job 1:4, righteous job’s sons celebrated Birthdays.

Mothers and Fathers Day - are not pagan, are not spoken of badly in the Bible, in fact we are commanded to honor our parents -setting aside one day to do it does not prohibit a person from doing it other days… it is really hard to see the JW reasoning on this.

Christmas replaced pagan festivals - and that is a good thing. Everyone knows that the date itself may not be the correct one. It is possible, (as I said in my original post that you copied - remember? ha!) for symbols to change their meaning over time - the swaztika, for example, in the beginning of the 20th C was a relatively benign symbol; over the course of the 20th it took on a bad connotation . That is an example of a symbol going from good to bad but is it not also possible for a symbol to go from bad to good? Words are symbols, too - and some words in the English language have the exact opposite meaning of what they held a few hundred years ago.

Best wishes to you - AHF
 
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Jaded27:
It’s not satanic.It’s pagan in origin and agianst bible teachings. Therefore we protect our chidlren from worldly and pagan influences.
I was never left out of things. I got presents and candy and love all year long. It didn’t have to be christmas for me to get a gift. I loved that.

Here are the explanations you asked for:

Birthdays:
Genesis 40:20-22 and Matthew 14:6-10 both give bad examples of birthday parties. According to 2nd Timothy everything in the Bible is there for a reason. It is an example to show us how to live our lives. Therefore JWs do not celebrate birthdays as they are not condoned in the bible. That and another reason I have had explained to me is that focusing on yourself SO MUCH each year isn’t something that should be encouraged. It’s materialistic for one. I find it very odd when my fiancée freaks out because he forgot to get his dad a present for his birthday. Hello, he’s over 50! I’m pretty sure he doesn’t need a shiny new toy.

Mother’s and Father’s day – you should honor your father and your mother every day. Most people do not respect their parents at all. They think giving them a nice card one day a year makes them good children. It does not. There is no need to set aside one day to focus on how great your parents are. Treat them with respect and love every day.

Christmas – there is sooooo much info on this I cannot possibly type it in one post. I’ll give you the highlights. The encyclopedia Americana says: the reason for establishing December 25th as xmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice. . .

Right there in non-JW literature it says that it’s not even Jesus’ birthday. It was picked to correspond to pagan festivals. This along with not celebrating ANY birthdays should be enough. But there’s more.

Matthew 2:1,11,16-note that the bible account does not say that they found Jesus in a manger, as it’s usually represented in Christmas art. When the astrologers arrived (magi to you guys), Jesus and his parents were living in a house.

Best of luck to you all.
Jaded,
Hate to get nit-picky here… but isn’t the wishing of “good luck” a bit superstitious? According to my dictonary superstitious means: “… a belief in fate, omens, magic or chance as governing principals.” That sort of thing is strictly forbidden in the Bible and not at all pleasing to God. Do you think he’s angry with you because you wished us “good luck?”

Of course not… because He knows your heart and He knows that you don’t believe in omens & magic or fate etc. You were just being kind and bidding us goodbye.

Could it be the same with the things you say are Pagan? Maybe at one time they were celebrated by only pagans… a long time ago… but we AREN’T Pagans - We’re Christians. We believe in - worship - celebrate Jesus Christ. He knows our hearts. And so when we make a birthday cake for our child on her birthday - Jehovah doesn’t hold it against us… He knows we aren’t celebrating some Pagan custom… we’re celebrating our dear child that he’s given us. Likewise with Christmas - perhaps December 25 was originally a pagan celebration - but look at it now… as Catholics were are celebrating that our Savior was born. It’s all about Him. It’s not about Santa - or presents - it’s about Jesus. Have you ever been to midnight mass on Christmas Eve? I really wish you’d come because you’d see that there is not a mention of Santa or anything remotely materialistic about it. It’s all about Christ. Now I imagine that Satan was very pleased when all those pagans were celebrating the winter solstice… how do you think he feels when Dec 25th rolls around and no one is thinking of the winter solstace - but instead they are thinking of Jesus? Even people who aren’t Christians are bombarded with the message of His birth. How cool is that? We took that day away from Satan. It’s ours now - ours to celebrate the Messiah.

And regarding your statement that “most people do not respect their Mothers & Fathers.” I am so sorry to hear you say that. Most people that I know, do, actually. I know that my children respect me 365 days of the year - and for that I am so thankful. On Mother’s Day they give me sweet little cards that they themselves made and they bring me breakfast in bed (then they help me eat it.) Do you honestly believe that Jehovah God looks down from Heaven and sees us all on my bed - munching on toast and is disgusted by that? Does it make sense to you that He would say… “Oh I’m not buying it… those kids should be kind to their Mother EVERY day!!!” Of course not.

God Bless,
CM
 
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Jaded27:
Yes I do. I love to “reason” which is why I will not argue further. Thanks.
I didn’t think we were “arguing” - I thought we were having a discussion? I’m sorry if my questions make you uncomfortable.
 
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Jaded27:
What is the divinity of christ?

There is only ONE God. It says it right in the bible. That is Jehovah. What’s to debate about here?
Where do you find Jehovah in the bible??? That is, the original bible, not the one mistranslated by Russell, or any of the following presidents of the Watchtower Org.
 
I believe “Jehovah” is a mistranslation of YAHWEH.

Thank for you posting At his Feet!

As for me, I called my niece to wish her a HAPPY BIRTHDAY before she went to bed. And GOD didn’t do anything to me yet. 😃
 
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