I Timothy 4:1-3

[guanophore]

Yes but doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church explicitly forbid marriage to those who would have authority in the Roman Catholic Church. And this is a matter of fact, not some redirection to some other situation, for if some other church or churches have done this in past history why is it so in the Roman Catholic Church, in reference to this text, since the Roman Catholic Church is aware of it’s Truth.

No, but this is a common misconception.

In fact, there are several misconceptions in your post. For one thing, the CC is not “Roman”. For another thing, most of those who take vows of celibacy do not have any positions of authority. The Latin Rite prefers to choose from among those so called to serve as priests, so that their interests are not divided.

Thirdly, all the Churches founded by Apostles, including those who are not in unity with Rome, follow this practice, demonstrating that it is not a “Roman” but an aposotlic practice.

Yes, the RCC is aware of it’s Truth, because it was written by the Church There is nothing in the Scriptures which contradicts the Church

Consider, should we believe what The Apostle Paul has to say in what we should see and recognize as so. Or the Roman Catholic Church’s lengthy intellectual superiority of bla bla bla excuse, oh I mean explanation, of being a word for word manifestation of what is said here? When one can plainly see it has come to pass. This is the later times, isn’t it? It is what it is, no need to deny it, in Church pride of Church infallibility.

There is also no contradictions in the Teachings of Paul an dht eTeachings of the Catholioc Church, since they come from the same Source. Paul, in fact, was a champion of celibacy, especially among those called to the mjinstry such of Himself.

There is no need to deny this. What we deny is your limited undersatnding of the facts.

Are you here to sling mud, or do you really want to learn something?

 

[guanophore]

So i could become a Priest and technically get married in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church?

The priesthood is not something like becoming an electrician that one just decides to do for himself. One must be called to this service, and approved by the Church. Persons with divided interests such as this are not sought for such service.

But yes, if you did discern a call, and freely chose to commit yourself to entering into the One Priesthood of Christ, after the order of Melchizedek, then you would also share in marriage with Him to His One Bride, the Church.

As part of your vows, you would be expected to give your life for the Bride, just as He did.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church currently forbids its priests to marry, as the Orthodox Church does too. But the Roman Catholic Church does not forbid married priests.

Hope this helps.

I don’t think it helps, because it reinforces an anticatholic misconception. Priests are not forbidden to marry, and neither is anyone else who chooses a celibate life. All such persons respond to what they believe is a call to become eunuchs for the Kingdom of God. Those who are chosen to serve in the priesthood have many years of discernment, education, and spiritual formation before they come to the point where they choose to lay aside other interests and devote themselves completely to the Holy Bride of Christ as their spouse.

In the East, some priests are received into service who were married prior to their vows, but it is understood that, if they should become widowers or their wives choose to leave them, that they will not remarry, but devote themselves wholly to the Bride.

Calling this choice “forbidding” is misleading to our separated brethren, who don’t understand that candidates all choose, and that they have misunderstood the scripture quoted by the OP.

 

[guanophore]

Please I was rased a Roman Catholic, I know where of I speak.

No, DP, you do not know what you are talking about. You are sharing your experience as a cradle Catholic, and reflecting you were poorly catechized. This does not equate to what the Church believes and teaches.

Don’t feel too bad about it, it happened to a lot of us. I though I knew whereof I spoke also, when I was raised Roman Catholic and subsequently left the Church. I learned that I did not.

It has always been the attitude of the Roman Catholic Church that they may no always be right, but they are never wrong.

Clearly you have a very narrow understanding of the levels of teaching in the Church.

 It is the stand of the Roman Catholic Church for, I’m not sure how long, that if one is called by God to have what is considered a intimate relationship with Him. That in order to serve the Lord in Roman Catholic Church in that capacity, marriage is expressly forbidden, or the Roman Catholic Church will not allow you to take part therein.

No, DP, this is not accurate. This may reflect your understanding (or in this case, misunderstanding), but it is not the “stand of the RCC” On the contrary, the Church teaches that we are ALL called by God to have an intimate relationship with Him, and that we are ALL to serve Him in the Church in that intimate capacity.

Furthermore, marriage is not forbidded at any time or anyplace in the Church. The Church teaches that marriage is a sacrament (visible sign of God’s grace) and that it functions to sanctify those within it’s vows.

No one of any significant authority in the Roman Catholic Church may be married, from priest to Pope. It doesn’t matter if you decide to agree with that or not, it’s forbidden, hence denied participation therein.

You have a very skewed attitude about authority for one who appears to crave it.

Most authority in the local parishes lies with the pastoral committees, who are composed of laypersons. Though the teaching of the Church is to be held inviolable by the bishop and his desingate (priest) this does not preclude laypeople from leadership and authority.

It’s not an accident, it’s on purpose. A conscience decision on the Roman Catholic Church’s part.

It is true that the Latin Rite consciously decided to choose from among those called to serve the Kingdom as eunuchs to the ministry. It seems like this decision hurt your feelings a lot.

As it is written “that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith” and if your one who is in touch with the goings on with in the Roman Catholic Church you know where of I speak.

I know you are speaking out of some other orifice.

In visiting all these sites, manly Catholic, it’s always the attitude of the Catholic that anyone insistent in referring to Scripture as the authority, considers it an attack on their faith.

Usually those that do so are attacking the faith. the errant doctrine of SS was a direct attack on the faith.

Scripture is to be interpreted in the light of the faith of those who wrote it.

What is wrong with that picture? When the True Faith (Trust) is in the Word of God.

The Word of God is not confined tothe pages of Scripture.

The things that the Roman Catholic priesthood does and professes and argues is ok to do.

Perhaps you could give an example?

Noah, Abraham, King David, the Prophets, the Apostles wouldn’t even think or consider, nor would ever say to do, let alone do. But the Priesthood that’s different isn’t it. There infallible, just ask them.

It seems clear that the poor catechesis you received has also left you with an inaccurate undersatanding of the gift of infalliblity.

If Noah, Abraham, King David, the Prophets, or Apostles would go out in a public street with many watching and had bowed and prayed before a lifeless statue. No matter what it was the image of. Like it was some big event, and everyone else should do the same, what would the Lord our God have done to them?

DP, you have been misled by anti-Catholics.

I recommend that you don’t use any statues to remind you about your faith, since you are clearly weak in faith, and cannot look beyond the statue to that which it represents.

 

[guanophore]

Being an apostate Catholic hardly makes you an authority on anything. Many infamous heretics and notorious sinners were raised Catholic as well. If they would have really known and lived their Catholic Faith, they never would have left it in the first place.

Don’t be too hard on him, Fidelis. Clearly he cannot qualify as an apostate or an heretic. Persons in these categories must have embraced the Catholic faith, then willfully and knowingly left it. Clearly DP never knew or understood what the Church really teaches. When he left, his faith was still in a childlike state, and he was poorly catechized. He has rebelled against things he believed are Catholic, but are not (like priests being forbidden to marry).

So please be so kind as to not address me again unless you intend on holding a polite, Christian conversation. Thank you and farewell.

Hopefully DP has been drawn here to CAF so that he may come to realize that what he thought was Catholic, in fact, is not.

 

[Fidelis]

Hopefully DP has been drawn here to CAF so that he may come to realize that what he thought was Catholic, in fact, is not.

That is my hope as well. I further hope he can learn some manners and the fundamentals of civil and Christian discourse.

 

[TimothyH]

Getting back to the question asked in the orginal post for a moment…

First and Second Timothy as well as Titus are “Pastoral” books. They are basically a senior pastor’s writings to those whome he has mentored and raised up to leadership postions within the Church. All three books have to do with, among other things, teaching correct doctrine as handed down by the the Church.

1 Timothy 4:1-4 cannot be read or intpreted as an individual passage in the abscense of the surrounding verses and apart from the overall context of what Paul intended - exhortation to his protoge’s to be good examples and to teach sound doctrine according to what Paul and the Church as a whole has handed down.

**1 Timothy 4:1-4 It is not prophecy. It has nothing to do with celibate priesthood instituted by the Church eleven centuries later. Paul himself was celibate. Come on now… **

Even in this early stage of the Church, in the time of Paul and Timothy, there were those who distorted the truth for personal gain (deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences). False ascetics taught that all creation was sinful incuding the human body, sex, food, enjoyment, etc. Other’s insisted on strict dietary laws and still tried to drive a wedge between Gentile and Jewish Christians over forbidden food, even though Peter had already spoken authoritatively on the subject (cf Acts 10:34-49). The passage is nothing more than a portion of Paul’s greater exhortation to Timothy to teach sound doctrine in unity with the Church and his pointing out to Timothy that there are false teachers who were trying then and would continue to try to pull people away from the faith for personal gain.

DPMartin has successfully taken a part of scripture out of context and drawn everyone here down a rat hole discussion about some pet peeve he has with Catholicism, something which is the perogative of the Church and is really none of his business anyway, and which has nothing to do with the verse the original poster asked about. I hope, like the other posters, that he has come to CAF to learn about the real Catholicism, not what he has heard and read from non-Catholic sources. It is my fervent hope that he has not intentionally misused scripture to try to drive a wedge between Christians.

-Tim-

 

[guanophore]

**1 Timothy 4:1-4 It is not prophecy. It has nothing to do with celibate priesthood instituted by the Church eleven centuries later. Paul himself was celibate. Come on now… **

I agree with you, but teh celibate priesthood was not instituted 11 centuries later, but by Christ, in HImself. He also encouraged those who were called to be eunuchs for the Kingdom to receive this gift. Paul and the other Apostles also taught this principle, and that is why it is found in all Churches founded by Apostles (including the Orthodox, who are not in communion with Rome).

The preference for choosing priests from among those so called came out of the Monastic movement in the 4th century. The Church realized that persons who were completely devoted to prayer made better pastors.

The passage is nothing more than a portion of Paul’s greater exhortation to Timothy to teach sound doctrine in unity with the Church and his pointing out to Timothy that there are false teachers who were trying then and would continue to try to pull people away from the faith for personal gain.

I think the OP would like to imply that they should be applied to the modern CC.

DPMartin has successfully taken a part of scripture out of context and drawn everyone here down a rat hole discussion about some pet peeve he has with Catholicism,

I think he was really hurt at some point by the Church. This is what chases people into anti-catholic sects such as the one he is in now.

Maybe he, or someone he loved, wanted to be a priest and be married and he was disappointed.

Maybe he, or someone he loved, was hurt by a priest?

It may be much more than just a “pet peeve”.

something which is the perogative of the Church and is really none of his business anyway, and which has nothing to do with the verse the original poster asked about. I hope, like the other posters, that he has come to CAF to learn about the real Catholicism, not what he has heard and read from non-Catholic sources. It is my fervent hope that he has not intentionally misused scripture to try to drive a wedge between Christians.

I will join my prayers to yours in this regard.

 

[DPMartin]

to all
thanks for your replies.

Sorry if anyone is angry in response to my posting. And I was referring to Roman Catholic not all Catholics in reference to forbidden marriage. Please don’t misunderstand that. if it seems to be a rant sorry. I’m not angry that what I have posted in reference to forbidden marriage in service to the Lord is possibility true, in ref. To the Roman Catholic Church. It doesn’t keep me from knowing the Lord, or seeking His Way.

Adam was not deceived by the serpent, Adam had no conversation with the serpent, but Adam was seduced by the control over what he loved that was made of himself, Eve.

Gen:3:17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Hence he hearkened to the voice of what he loved dearly, and not the Voice of the Lord.

Again sorry if anyone was encouraged to take offence, in the name of their religion.

 

[guanophore]

Sorry if anyone is angry in response to my posting. And I was referring to Roman Catholic not all Catholics in reference to forbidden marriage. Please don’t misunderstand that. if it seems to be a rant sorry.

This is good to know, but you are still saddled with the same problem. All 23 Rites of the Catholic Church prefer to ordain those that are consecrated (celibate) to serve in the priesthood, and this is also the practice in other Churches founded by Apostles that are not currently in communion with Rome such as the Orthodox and the Orientals.

If this practice was 'Roman", then it would not exist outside the Latin Rite.

I’m not angry that what I have posted in reference to forbidden marriage in service to the Lord is possibility true, in ref. To the Roman Catholic Church. It doesn’t keep me from knowing the Lord, or seeking His Way.

I am glad to year this. Some of your posts sounded as if you had been wounded by this discipline.

I am also glad that we can agree that each person is to seek the Lord and follow His way fully, no matter what their calling. We are all called to the priesthood, just not all of us as ministerial priests. Some of us have taken vows of celibacy as laypersons, so as to consecrate ourselves fully to His service with undivided interests. No one has “forbidden” any of us to marry. It is a choice.

Adam was not deceived by the serpent, Adam had no conversation with the serpent, but Adam was seduced by the control over what he loved that was made of himself, Eve.

Gen:3:17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Hence he hearkened to the voice of what he loved dearly, and not the Voice of the Lord.

Are you making a point about the celibate life here?

Again sorry if anyone was encouraged to take offence, in the name of their religion.

We are here to give Catholic Answers, but some people that come here don’t really want them. They want to cling to their own misunderstandings instead. I hope you are not one of them.

 

[DPMartin]

This is good to know, but you are still saddled with the same problem. All 23 Rites of the Catholic Church prefer to ordain those that are consecrated (celibate) to serve in the priesthood, and this is also the practice in other Churches founded by Apostles that are not currently in communion with Rome such as the Orthodox and the Orientals.

If this practice was 'Roman", then it would not exist outside the Latin Rite.

I am glad to year this. Some of your posts sounded as if you had been wounded by this discipline.

I am also glad that we can agree that each person is to seek the Lord and follow His way fully, no matter what their calling. We are all called to the priesthood, just not all of us as ministerial priests. Some of us have taken vows of celibacy as laypersons, so as to consecrate ourselves fully to His service with undivided interests. No one has “forbidden” any of us to marry. It is a choice.

Are you making a point about the celibate life here?

We are here to give Catholic Answers, but some people that come here don’t really want them. They want to cling to their own misunderstandings instead. I hope you are not one of them.

guanophore

thanks for the reply
it seems it would be wise to leave it where you have said it.

Thanks everyone for letting me be here on this site

and may the Lord bless and keep every soul.

 

[Vince1022]

I don’t think it helps, because it reinforces an anticatholic misconception. Priests are not forbidden to marry,

Priests in the Catholic (and Orthodox) Churches may not marry.

Why do you say otherwise? Thanks.

 

[Vince1022]

All such persons respond to what they believe is a call to become eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

Where does the Catholic Church teach this? Thank you.

 

[Vince1022]

In the East, some priests are received into service who were married prior to their vows, but it is understood that, if they should become widowers or their wives choose to leave them, that they will not remarry, but devote themselves wholly to the Bride.

Again a reference would help. Devote themselves to the Bible? Not the Church? Thanks for any clarification.

 

[guanophore]

Priests in the Catholic (and Orthodox) Churches may not marry.

Why do you say otherwise? Thanks.

Because all priests in both communions have long periods of discernment over the call to celibacy. When they have completed the discernment period, and choose to recieve Holy Orders, they make the CHOICE not to marry. They understand at the outset that the church prefers to choose from among those called to celibacy to serve in the priesthood, but they are not “forbidden”, as accused. They choose.

Those that bring calumny try to say that the Catholic and Orthodox violate the Scriptures by “forbidding marriage”,a nd this is a misperception.

Where does the Catholic Church teach this? Thank you.

The celibate priesthood is not a Teaching, but a discipline. The Church learned very early that the pastorate was better served by those who did not have divided interests. St. Paul talks about this in his letter to Corinth.

 

[guanophore]

Again a reference would help. Devote themselves to the Bible? Not the Church? Thanks for any clarification.

The Church is the Bride of Christ. Those who are taken up into the Melchizedickian priesthood (that of Christ) serve his Bride. Their interests are not divided in trying to serve an earthly marriage if they are celibate.

Eph 5:25-33

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body…become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the church. 33 Each of you, however, should love his wife as himself, and a wife should respect her husband.

1 Cor 7:32-35

32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33 but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin are anxious about the affairs of the Lord, so that they may be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please her husband. 35 I say this for your own benefit, not to put any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and unhindered devotion to the Lord.

The celibate priest is able to devote himself entirly to the Bride of Christ, laying down his life for her, without divided interests. The Church very much needs this level of devotion, so the Church chooses from among those persons called to be eunuchs for the kingdom of God to serve in the priesthood.

 

[Vince1022]

Because all priests in both communions have long periods of discernment over the call to celibacy. When they have completed the discernment period, and choose to recieve Holy Orders, they make the CHOICE not to marry. They understand at the outset that the church prefers to choose from among those called to celibacy to serve in the priesthood, but they are not “forbidden”, as accused. They choose.

Those that bring calumny try to say that the Catholic and Orthodox violate the Scriptures by “forbidding marriage”,a nd this is a misperception.

The celibate priesthood is not a Teaching, but a discipline. The Church learned very early that the pastorate was better served by those who did not have divided interests. St. Paul talks about this in his letter to Corinth.

So…you agree, Catholic priests are forbidden to marry?

 

[guanophore]

So…you agree, Catholic priests are forbidden to marry?

Clearly you are not reading my posts, or you are just deliberately recalcitrant.

What do you hope to achieve here?

 

[rben20]

What does the Church have to say about these verses?

Bless

Desiring Christ,

The Church does not specifically say anything about these verses but if you wish to somehow show that the Church contradicts itself in Scripture or that this warning from St. Paul to St. Timothy has any relation to the Catholic Church is very misguided. The Church does not forbid marriage or foods. There are married priests within the Catholic Church including the Latin Rite and foods are not forbidden…there is only abstinence from certain foods which is a practice known as fasting of which Christ performed 40 days in the desert before His ministry. It if far more scriptural to remain celibate for Holy Orders as told by Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostle St. Paul. What St. Paul was warning St. Timothy about was Gnostic groups and their heretical teachings about everything material in the world being evil. That is what is being addressed here in St. Paul’s epistle.

 

[Roman_Korvinus]

It probably means that these things are made to happen due to the way things are taught. So in effect to teach them is watch them happen. I think it implies in corinthians we are not supposed to teach.