I used to be Catholic too (yeah right)

[Rawb]

First, many, many more people are more highly educated than ever before. Since WWII, middle and working class people have received all sorts of incentives to go to school and earn advanced degrees. With such education, we expand our powers to reason, to catalog, to meaningfully reflect on life, science, history, culture, etc. This often brings religion and belief under a much harsher microscope than for those with less advanced educations. Most pastors would not admit this, but they would rather the pews be filled with children and union laborers than a bunch of doctors, lawyers and scientists any day!

Oh yes, I’ve heard that one before too; I’m a Catholic? I must not have really examined anything, I must reject anything scientific. I’m probably not that clever, have to be told what to do, and if I just had someone ‘enlightened’ explain to my why Jesus was a load of bunk, maybe I could get it and would then become ‘enlightened’ and could finally use reason and logic like those oh-so-intelligent atheists and agnostics.

nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-Roman-Catholics

While admittadly not everyone on that list is practicing, you can see that there are brilliant Catholics, just as there are brilliant atheists and agnostics (or buddhists, or hindi or whatever else). People can be logical and reasonable and believe in God, though many today think they cannot (a recent, false, dichotamy)

We must also assume you’re psychic, as you’ve read the mind of ‘most pastors’ and know them to prefer dullards over intellectuals in their pews.

 

[Agripa]

I have not asserted that to beleive in God one must be a “dullard” or that a lack of belief in God necessarily follow a better level of education, though I would posit that as people become more educated, they more likely take a more nuanced view of what institutions like the Church posit about God. I think the original question had to do with why there are so many more “former Catholics” about these days and I am fairly certain it has something to do with culture, education, conditions and circumstances of the modern, democratic society as opposed to the ancient worlds when Catholicism held greater import and relevance because it fit in with how societies were ruled.

As to the individual believer, I know many well-educated, pious, devout believers in God just as I know many well educated atheists, but of these two catagories, they far outnumber well educated believers in a Catholic view of God. But this is simply anecdotal, certainly not supportive.

 

[rinnie]

You are totally correct! Bible study was an intricate part of our training and so we feel that we have lost out. The answer is evangelization which was never done in the past. We Catholics need to become bold and make a commitment to read our bibles.

First like you said know what we are reading first. then read them. That is the point that the Pope tried to make years ago. Learn what you are reading first, then you can understand what you are reading. And its working. Catholics on this site are awesome. I am so so proud of all of them. Why Catholics never really read in the past was they would try to translate it. We cannot do that. We do not have that power. But we have a wonder gift the church to teach us. Then there is no argument. Its not you see it this way, I see it that way. ITs this is what the truth is and we all see it one way. The Only way. Gods way. Because the Pope says once you understand the bible, and this does happen, God starts to talk to you in ways you will never imagine. No one can explain it, it just has to happen to you. Then you will understand. And I am sure alot of you know what I mean. ITs like you read something you have read your whole life, a thousand times for the first time over and over again.

 

[SD_Catholic]

I have not asserted that to beleive in God one must be a “dullard” or that a lack of belief in God necessarily follow a better level of education, though I would posit that as people become more educated, they more likely take a more nuanced view of what institutions like the Church posit about God. I think the original question had to do with why there are so many more “former Catholics” about these days and I am fairly certain it has something to do with culture, education, conditions and circumstances of the modern, democratic society as opposed to the ancient worlds when Catholicism held greater import and relevance because it fit in with how societies were ruled.

As to the individual believer, I know many well-educated, pious, devout believers in God just as I know many well educated atheists, but of these two catagories, they far outnumber well educated believers in a Catholic view of God. But this is simply anecdotal, certainly not supportive.

I doubt any priest feels uneasy about highly educated individuals sitting in the pews… Unless that education leads that person to a feeling of arrogance which would cause them to question their faith… then perhaps the priest would feel for that person’s soul, but I doubt he would be affraid that the person might actually " figure something out" and quit the Church.

I think the biggest problem that would face an unbelieving person that is well educated is the feeling that they should some how be able to figure out all the mysteries of life now that they are “smart”… and if they can’t figure it out then it must not be true… I’m not sure of this, but if a test of arrogance could be given, I bet the “well educated” would score much higher than the less educated… disclaimer: I’m not saying you’re arrogant if you’re well educated… but I would say a well educated individual that can still assume the heart of a Child and accept that there are still mysteries in this world, will find much favor with God.

Just more random thoughts

SD

 

[Agripa]

Again, I merely offered possible answers as to why one might find many more “former Catholics” in these modern times than not.

As for priest preferring children and less educated in pews, I am reminded that across many great religions, there are admonitions to be like little children in matters of faith. This promotes unity and ease of ecclesiastical administration.

And I would take some umbrage with your assertion of arrogance among the well-educated. Yes, well-educated people can become arrogant, but I doubt arrogance alone causes one to question dogmatic faith - its knowledge that more likely does that. As a child I once feared monsters in all sorts of dark places, but with knowledge, I dispelled those absurd fears, knowing that what is in the closet by day is most likely the same that is in it at night.

So too in ancient times when astrologers for a ruler would utilize their elite knowledge of the heavenly bodies to predict mysterious eclipses which in turn the ruler would use to manipulate his people, but as people became more educated about the planets and their predictable motions, such foolish trickery was no longer effective. Was it arrogant for people to finally ignore such trickery? Hardly.

And I have never felt that being well educated meant it was up to me to figure out all mysteries, but rather that the gift of a mind and intellect allowed us to figure out all mysteries over time, thus freeing ourselves from fear and deprivation.

To me, God wants us to fully discover this universe and gave us the tools to do it. However, in doing that, our understanding of what God is will change over time as well, i.e. the God / Warrior / King (OT) image or Holy Family / Trinity (NT) view will change - perhaps to a more Spinoza or Einstein-like view of God as more a “force” or as “primal physical laws” or as a “universal rational”. Who knows, but surely it will change and the Church may have to change with it too so that there will be fewer “former Catholics”.

 

[CatholicRevert1]

My story…well, I was brought up Anglican and went to a Catholic Convent School for 2 years which I loved but my father was transferred to a different city and so had to leave. You tend to go to Church because you have to and get taken by your parents. I have never really enjoyed going to Anglican Church either and maybe remember listening to a handful of sermons (bad I know). Also, I got involved with a Muslim man who I thought was a nice person (he turned out to be a liar and frankly quite nasty too) I work for a Jewish firm and he tried to make me leave my job too (I said no). It took me 3 years to see it. He wanted me to convert to marry him and that is when I left. Nothing could ever convince me that it is a real religion. They hate everyone who is not Muslim! Anyway, I have been praying for a change of direction in my life - something that can make me feel complete and happy again. I carried on attending my Anglican Church in London and each time on leaving and arriving I was drawn into the Catholic Church which is next door. This has been happening for 2 years! Only when my mother came with me to Church about 6 months ago and asked why I go into the Catholic Church did I realise that my prayers had been answered months ago (God must think I am really thick lol). I started attending Mass 6 months ago and love it. I am starting RCIA in September and in the meantime am reading all the books. I never realised how much there is to know about Christianity! I love Jesus and always have and have a personal relationship with him already so not the issue really. Now I feel great. I still feel though that I am being attacked by Satan and he is sabotaging me. I am epileptic and have been ok for 12 years. Last week I had a bad blackout and cut my face open - I think he could have caused that to happen to knock my faith in God (might be a bit paranoid maybe).

Sorry but the length of this but got carried away!

 

[SD_Catholic]

Again, I merely offered possible answers as to why one might find many more “former Catholics” in these modern times than not.

As for priest preferring children and less educated in pews, I am reminded that across many great religions, there are admonitions to be like little children in matters of faith. This promotes unity and ease of ecclesiastical administration.

And I would take some umbrage with your assertion of arrogance among the well-educated. Yes, well-educated people can become arrogant, but I doubt arrogance alone causes one to question dogmatic faith - its knowledge that more likely does that. As a child I once feared monsters in all sorts of dark places, but with knowledge, I dispelled those absurd fears, knowing that what is in the closet by day is most likely the same that is in it at night.

So too in ancient times when astrologers for a ruler would utilize their elite knowledge of the heavenly bodies to predict mysterious eclipses which in turn the ruler would use to manipulate his people, but as people became more educated about the planets and their predictable motions, such foolish trickery was no longer effective. Was it arrogant for people to finally ignore such trickery? Hardly.

And I have never felt that being well educated meant it was up to me to figure out all mysteries, but rather that the gift of a mind and intellect allowed us to figure out all mysteries over time, thus freeing ourselves from fear and deprivation.

To me, God wants us to fully discover this universe and gave us the tools to do it. However, in doing that, our understanding of what God is will change over time as well, i.e. the God / Warrior / King (OT) image or Holy Family / Trinity (NT) view will change - perhaps to a more Spinoza or Einstein-like view of God as more a “force” or as “primal physical laws” or as a “universal rational”. Who knows, but surely it will change and the Church may have to change with it too so that there will be fewer “former Catholics”.

I didn’t intend on making you upset with the arrogant comment… thats why I added the disclaimer … my point like you said is that education can lead to arrogance… so can other things but I doubt an arrogant pro athlete is going to become an atheist because he makes millions… It’s the arrogance of knowledge that will make a person trust themselves more than their conscience and how they previously understood God. Plain knowledge can lead to all sorts of things… many people are lead to God because of knowledge… you make it sound as if more knowledge should lead you away from God… I’m sure many atheists have found God through knowledge and research… so it makes me think that it’s the arrogance that one would get from being “well educated”, that would cause them to doubt a belief in God… like I said the feeling that they can now reason out everything in life.

I have to totally disagree with you’re statement that God wants us to fully discover this universe… especially if that means understanding all the mysteries of this universe… how can we discover an endless universe? The best tool he gave us to figure this out is a gift called eternal life… I’m betting the best chance we got to understanding this universe is to ask him… matching witts with God is an impossible and frustrating game.

SD

 

[distracted]

Well, I did used to be Catholic, that is if being Catholic is going to CCD and listening to them shove **** down your throat. I stopped being Catholic when I was 14. Sad but true. I was tired of the whole “Its magic just believe it don’t ask questions” stuff. I can’t just simply believe. You are telling me to read a book that is 2000 years old and take it as the truth to life?!! Come on. I have read the Bible, front to back and every which way you can. I think Jesus was real, I do, but one must remember that there were lots of people like him running around claiming to have life figured out. I guess the real reason I stopped being Catholic was I was asking questions that no one had the answers to and finially I figured out that no one know anything about what really happened. Everyone who claims to know the faith is going on the Bible as a work of pure non-fiction with no exaggerations, that and assumptions.

i wish i had had that *^% crammed down my throat, as it were… because i was LOST without the teachings of the Church, which i found later… through 1st finding the rosary… It could have spared me and a lot of other people a LOT of pain and misery… (which may… usually does jeopardize the search for salvation…).

I can honestly say that i would not be Christian if it weren’t for the RCC… (they have weapons against satan that other churches don’t have)…

If one goes to Mass every day for 3 yrs, one hears the entire Bible… i have been going for a long time…

I can’t prove to those who refuse to believe that the Scirptures are the Word of God… but i know they are… because in the Word, i find Justice (which is sorely lacking in the secular world ) and truth and love… and peace… & purification… We Catholics also have the Real Presence… :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

Sure people in the church are a big disappointment a lot of the time… but that just makes me love God (& his Word) all the more…

 

[KCtheMommy]

Good question.

I am the only one in my Catholic family actually practicing. EVERYONE else has left for protestant churches. Isn’t that funny, because I didn’t receive the sacraments as a child like they all did, even my cousins. Due to my parents divorce and my dad’s atheism I wasn’t allowed until I was an adult. Here I am the only practicing Catholic. Weird. OK anyway…

My aunt told me she never felt she could just “talk to Jesus” like she does now. I tried to get her to expound on that but she didn’t do much but say she felt Mary and the Saints were in the way and she couldn’t get close to Jesus on his own.

Then she deferred to the old “accept Jesus into your heart and you will be saved” line. She likes that better. It’s easier.

My mom’s gone because she’s been married and divorced like 6 times. Actually behaving and trying not to sin is pretty hard on her. Protestant’s are more accepting of this, well because you don’t have to tell anyone. I think my mom is a big reason a lot of the other’s left, including grandma. But she does go to Mass with us when she visits. She doesn’t seem to have a disdain for the church like the others.

My cousin’s wife keeps asking little questions about being Catholic, so I keep throwing her nuggets and trying to show through example the fullness I feel, and the closeness to God I have being Catholic.

So there’s my :twocents:

I don’t know what to tell you. My Aunt stopped going to Mass before my cousin’s were confirmed, I believe, not sure. I was raised pretty-much Catholic, without the Sacraments though. All the prayers, the teachings, etc. I guess they couldn’t help it – old habits are hard to break. Once I was old enough to get out and about on my own I attended Mass often. My grandma gave me a lot of catechism as I grew up. Each sentence I type it’s dawning on me how odd my situation is.

 

[rinnie]

KC its not odd its amazing. You seem to be the one who is well balanced. Keep up the good work. And stick with the belief. You will become closer and closer to God every day. God Bless Youl:thumbsup: