I want the Latin Mass provided in my parish!

[malphono]

Well, that too. But stranger things have happened.

I suppose so, but not by much. The Usus Antiquior is, by its very nature, rather the antithesis of the novel antics of such priests. For example, I suspect they’d have apoplectic fits at the very thought of ad orientem.

I’m just saying that it is not inherent in the EF that it is abuse free.

This is true, but in pre-conciliar times, the nature of what is called “abuse” was different. Most would be better termed “sloppiness” and, while certainly not praiseworthy, were far less insidious than what we began to see starting in 1966 (or thereabouts) and still see today. There are, of course, reasons for the latter, but I’ll avoid going there lest it be wrongly interpreted as “bashing” the Novus Ordo.

 

[ProVobis]

I will start with asking my pastor, however I am sure he will reject the notion. Very few people in my own parish even care for the Latin Mass but they don’t mind Spanish even though they can’t understand it. No, the revulsion is towards Latin…see my rant above ^

I think so too. You start getting creative with translations (like ICEL did) and the rest is bound to happen: change of posture, adlibbing, etc.

 

[OraLabora]

I suppose so, but not by much. The Usus Antiquior is, by its very nature, rather the antithesis of the novel antics of such priests. For example, I suspect they’d have apoplectic fits at the very thought of ad orientem.

This is true, but in pre-conciliar times, the nature of what is called “abuse” was different. Most would be better termed “sloppiness” and, while certainly not praiseworthy, were far less insidious than what we began to see starting in 1966 (or thereabouts) and still see today. There are, of course, reasons for the latter, but I’ll avoid going there lest it be wrongly interpreted as “bashing” the Novus Ordo.

The thing is that in pre-conciliar times society was different to. It wasn’t the “me” generation, with widespread degeneration of social mores that we see today and church attendance was much greater than today. If the EF became “ordinary” again, it would be said by priests of the 21s century, not of the 1950s.

 

[Rich_C]

It seems to me that for many Catholics the EF to them for worship as the King James version is to scripture to Evangelical fundamentalists.

I’ve got news for both groups: God hears and speaks more than Latin and/or 17th century English.

Thanks for a simplistic jab, Neo.

 

[latingirl]

Take all the people who attend the Ordinary Form as if it were unimportant, and put them into the Extraordinary Form, and guess what? They will do the same thing.

People are people. It has nothing to do with the form but with people.

-Tim-

You might be right. I’m a convert and attending the Latin Mass is what drew me to Catholicism and to the Holy Eucharist. I was surprised thereafter to find that most masses were quite unlike the ones which drew me in.

 

[malphono]

The thing is that in pre-conciliar times society was different to. It wasn’t the “me” generation, with widespread degeneration of social mores that we see today and church attendance was much greater than today. If the EF became “ordinary” again, it would be said by priests of the 21s century, not of the 1950s.

Of course I realize that, which is why I qualified the statement to refer to pre-conciliar days (and not necessarily the 1950s).

And truth to tell, although I wish it were far more widely available, I’m pleased enough that the Usus Antiquior is not the “ordinary” expression for just that reason. Those who do offer it, do so willingly and lovingly, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s far better than the alternative.

 

[anp1215]

And even after all of those steps are taken, the bishop can still say “no”. This is what happened to every group that made a request in our diocese.

The motu propio and the accompanying letter told Bishops to work to make the EF available to the faithful where requested. It didn’t say they had to have the EF in every parish or even in every deanery or, for that matter, even every Sunday.

Some of the more successful efforts that I have heard of involved a coordinated effort by parishioners from several geographically close parishes. Latingirl, you might try contacting Una Voce to see if there are already ongoing efforts for a EF Mass that you can join. They are also a good resource if you decide to start something yourself.

Hi,
you know there are three places in the diocese with the EF right? I think you are in my diocese based on another post you made in another thread.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Yes, but I think that needs to be qualified. Frankly, I doubt any priest who abuses the Novus Ordo would even consider offering the Usus Antiquior.

Well, when the Usus Antiquior was the Usus Ordinary there was “abuse”. And the people formed during that time still managed to skip Mass and sin regularly. People are people and whatever attitudes they have usually persist absent grace and a will to change.

 

[Corki]

Hi,
you know there are three places in the diocese with the EF right? I think you are in my diocese based on another post you made in another thread.

One is brand new (the FSSP parish). There is one parish with a Sunday EF Mass and one that celebrates the EF Mass on Friday morning. At the time the motu propio came out and the groups made their requests, there were two Sunday EF Masses (one was monthly). The Mass that was closest to me (only about an hour drive) has been supressed leaving only the one Sunday Mass in downtown Houston. I live in the far west part of the diocese - downtown is not reasonable on a regular basis. Houston is the kind of area where “centrally located” leaves out a lot of people.

I have a guess that the heistance to allow EF Masses at parishes was tied to the FSSP coming to town, something we didn’t know at the time. I do not know where the FSSP Church will be when it is finally built but I doubt it will be very close based on where thier temporary set up is.

 

[anp1215]

One is brand new (the FSSP parish). There is one parish with a Sunday EF Mass and one that celebrates the EF Mass on Friday morning. At the time the motu propio came out and the groups made their requests, there were two Sunday EF Masses (one was monthly). The Mass that was closest to me (only about an hour drive) has been supressed leaving only the one Sunday Mass in downtown Houston. I live in the far west part of the diocese - downtown is not reasonable on a regular basis. Houston is the kind of area where “centrally located” leaves out a lot of people.

I have a guess that the heistance to allow EF Masses at parishes was tied to the FSSP coming to town, something we didn’t know at the time. I do not know where the FSSP Church will be when it is finally built but I doubt it will be very close based on where thier temporary set up is.

Wait-I am a little confused. You said there is only one Sunday Mass in downtown Houston (you’re talking about Annunciation), but what about the FSSP at St. Elizabeth Ann Seton (I’m guessing that is the FSSP parish you are talking about). They have two Sunday Masses. If you live in the far west, that should be closer to you.

(centrally located definitely does not mean much here; it’s one of my least favorite things about this area)

 

[Corki]

Wait-I am a little confused. You said there is only one Sunday Mass in downtown Houston (you’re talking about Annunciation), but what about the FSSP at St. Elizabeth Ann Seton (I’m guessing that is the FSSP parish you are talking about). They have two Sunday Masses. If you live in the far west, that should be closer to you.

(centrally located definitely does not mean much here; it’s one of my least favorite things about this area)

St. EAS is about an hour away from me. I will probably get there eventually if there’s ever a Sunday where someone in my family isn’t committed at our parish. It’s just too far to go there and get back in time for CCE or anything elses. It’s a little further away than SL, where there was an EF Mass for a short time after the motu propio. West isn’t all Cy-Fair, you know. Those Masses, and the precense of the FSSP is** very **recent. At the time the Cardinal turned down the groups asking, it wasn’t part of the equation.

 

[sw85]

And even after all of those steps are taken, the bishop can still say “no”. This is what happened to every group that made a request in our diocese.

The motu propio and the accompanying letter told Bishops to work to make the EF available to the faithful where requested. It didn’t say they had to have the EF in every parish or even in every deanery or, for that matter, even every Sunday.

Some of the more successful efforts that I have heard of involved a coordinated effort by parishioners from several geographically close parishes. Latingirl, you might try contacting Una Voce to see if there are already ongoing efforts for a EF Mass that you can join. They are also a good resource if you decide to start something yourself.

If a stable group of the faithful requests an EF Mass and the bishop says no without making any efforts to accommodate them, the faithful may appeal to Ecclesia Dei in Rome. Fr. Z., who used to work for Ecclesia Dei, has repeatedly said on his blog that in such instances, the faithful would receive a very positive hearing.

 

[anp1215]

St. EAS is about an hour away from me. I will probably get there eventually if there’s ever a Sunday where someone in my family isn’t committed at our parish. It’s just too far to go there and get back in time for CCE or anything elses. It’s a little further away than SL, where there was an EF Mass for a short time after the motu propio. West isn’t all Cy-Fair, you know. Those Masses, and the precense of the FSSP is** very **recent. At the time the Cardinal turned down the groups asking, it wasn’t part of the equation.

I see. I know west isn’t all Cy-Fair, you just mentioned that there was only one EF Sunday Mass and the parish downtown, so I just meant that if you are west, Cy-Fair is by default closer to you. I’ve never been to the EF at either parish, but one Sunday one was held on the St. Thomas campus and I went to that.

 

[Corki]

If a stable group of the faithful requests an EF Mass and the bishop says no without making any efforts to accommodate them, the faithful may appeal to Ecclesia Dei in Rome. Fr. Z., who used to work for Ecclesia Dei, has repeatedly said on his blog that in such instances, the faithful would receive a very positive hearing.

And that may be why/how the FSSP were recently invited to set up a parish in our diocese. We may never know. However, none of the efforts to get an EF Mass at an existing parish have been successful.

Frankly, I am torn about the whole thing. Once my kids are beyond CCE age and I don’t have to factor that into each Sunday’s routine, I could very well see myself joining the FSSP parish (depending on where it’s permanent location ends up). But that would mean leaving my own parish and the groups that I belong to and support.

 

[thistle]

If a stable group of the faithful requests an EF Mass and the bishop says no without making any efforts to accommodate them, the faithful may appeal to Ecclesia Dei in Rome. Fr. Z., who used to work for Ecclesia Dei, has repeatedly said on his blog that in such instances, the faithful would receive a very positive hearing.

Yes but there are several problems.

1. The Church has not defined what “a stable group” means. It is not defined either in actual numbers or percentage of parishioners which could make it easy for a priest or bishop who isn’t keen to deny a request.
2. Even if Rome overrules the Bishop a priest who is willing to do it has to be found.
3. Even if a priest is willing to celebrate a Latin Mass he must be proficient in Latin. The Pope said it is not enough for a priest simply to memorise the Mass in Latin. He must be proficient in the language and understand what he is saying.
4. Many seminaries do not even teach Latin anymore.

 

[Cat]

Yes but there are several problems.

1. The Church has not defined what “a stable group” means. It is not defined either in actual numbers or percentage of parishioners which could make it easy for a priest or bishop who isn’t keen to deny a request.
2. Even if Rome overrules the Bishop a priest who is willing to do it has to be found.
3. Even if a priest is willing to celebrate a Latin Mass he must be proficient in Latin. The Pope said it is not enough for a priest simply to memorise the Mass in Latin. He must be proficient in the language and understand what he is saying.
4. Many seminaries do not even teach Latin anymore.

I’m really glad to hear that the priest must be proficient in the language and understand what he is saying. It just doesn’t seem good to me for anyone to be mouthing or hearing a lot of meaningless syllables. The Bible makes it clear that when someone exercises a gift of tongues during a meeting, there must be an interpretation so that everyone will understand what is being said. (I Corinthians 14)

Good call by the Holy Father!

 

[MissRose73]

I wish the EF was offered in my diocese. Not all of the churches I’ve been to have the right setups for that Mass type. Until then, I have to be content to travel at least 1.5 hours or more to attend the EF Masses in 2 other dioceses that are larger. I grew up on the Ordinary Form (and have no issues with it now with the new translations), and love the reverence of the EF Mass.

 

[OraLabora]

I grew up on the Ordinary Form (and have no issues with it now with the new translations), and love the reverence of the EF Mass.

I attend the OF Mass at a Benedictine monastery. It is exceptionally reverent, uses Gregorian chant for the Propers and Ordinary, chants everything else in French plainchant, uses incense, bells, pipe organ, in short, it is extremely reverent.

On the other hand I’ve been to irreverent OF Masses.

I don’t think the form of the Mass has anything to do with how reverent it is. It depends on the community, the priest(s), etc. The EF is special because today, well, it’s special. It’s lovingly preserved by those who desire to see it preserved. If the EF became ordinary, human nature being what it is I’m sure you’d see some irreverent EF Masses. I bet you some of the older folk here can remember some from their youth.

 

[ProVobis]

1. Even if a priest is willing to celebrate a Latin Mass he must be proficient in Latin. The Pope said it is not enough for a priest simply to memorise the Mass in Latin. He must be proficient in the language and understand what he is saying.

Does the same requirement hold for Anglophone priests being asked to celebrate a Spanish Mass or Latin OF?

 

[anp1215]

Does the same requirement hold for Anglophone priests being asked to celebrate a Spanish Mass or Latin OF?

I was wondering that, but then I thought, the Spanish and Latin OFs are the same as the English OF, especially now that we have the new translation. So it would seem that if the priest knows the English OF Mass, he would know what he was saying in a Spanish or Latin OF.