Well, extending that argument, not that I would necessarily condone it, but couldn’t a priest use a side-by-side Spanish/English-Latin missal to say the EF? It wouldn’t even have to be a precise translation, if there is such a thing.I was wondering that, but then I thought, the Spanish and Latin OFs are the same as the English OF, especially now that we have the new translation. So it would seem that if the priest knows the English OF Mass, he would know what he was saying in a Spanish or Latin OF.
See the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae, in particular item 15, which addresses the matter.
- The Church has not defined what “a stable group” means. It is not defined either in actual numbers or percentage of parishioners which could make it easy for a priest or bishop who isn’t keen to deny a request.
No it doesn’t specify hard numbers or even more absurd percentages, but the meaning of the Instruction is quite clear.
- A coetus fidelium (“group of the faithful”) can be said to be stabiliter existens (“existing in a stable manner”), according to the sense of art. 5 § 1 of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, when it is constituted by some people of an individual parish who, even after the publication of the Motu Proprio, come together by reason of their veneration for the Liturgy in the Usus Antiquior, and who ask that it might be celebrated in the parish church or in an oratory or chapel; such a coetus (“group”) can also be composed of persons coming from different parishes or dioceses, who gather together in a specific parish church or in an oratory or chapel for this purpose.
This is true, but is not usually an insurmountable obstacle.
- Even if Rome overrules the Bishop a priest who is willing to do it has to be found.
See the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae, in particular item 20b
- Even if a priest is willing to celebrate a Latin Mass he must be proficient in Latin. The Pope said it is not enough for a priest simply to memorise the Mass in Latin. He must be proficient in the language and understand what he is saying.
which makes is more than clear that priest need not be a Latin scholar.Regarding the use of the Latin language, a basic knowledge is necessary, allowing the priest to pronounce the words correctly and understand their meaning.
Unfortunately true, and this is a violation of Canon Law:
- Many seminaries do not even teach Latin anymore.
Can. 249 The program of priestly formation is to provide that students not only are carefully taught their native language but also **understand Latin **well and have a suitable understanding of those foreign languages which seem necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of pastoral ministry.
Well, in my former RC parish the past couple of priests aren’t proficient in French (I live in a traditionally French neighbourhood) and so the “French” Mass every Sunday is actually a bilingual one. Every part that can be done by the laity is done in French, and the priest does his parts in English. In the other, larger parish in the neighbourhood, they used to have a Francophone Deacon to read the Gospel and do the Homily in French. I’m not sure what their situation is today, I heard the Deacon retired due to health reasons last year.Does the same requirement hold for Anglophone priests being asked to celebrate a Spanish Mass or Latin OF?
No. Any priest may celebrate the OF Mass in Latin. We have had quite a few priests come to our parish when our pastor was away who did not speak any Spanish. They just read the Spanish Mass as well as they could. Conversely, I have been to daily Mass where one of the priests did not speak any English but he read the English Missal for Mass.Does the same requirement hold for Anglophone priests being asked to celebrate a Spanish Mass or Latin OF?
See the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae, in particular item 15, which addresses the matter.
No it doesn’t specify hard numbers or even more absurd percentages, but the meaning of the Instruction is quite clear.
This is true, but is not usually an insurmountable obstacle.
See the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae, in particular item 20b
which makes is more than clear that priest need not be a Latin scholar.
Unfortunately true, and this is a violation of Canon Law:
Not true. Why should a priest have to converse in Latin? He isn’t giving the homily in Latin. He only needs to have an understanding of what he is reading. Priests aren’t supposed to memorize the Mass anyway - they are always supposed to read it. It wouldn’t take an educated person very long with an English/Latin Missal to understand what each passage meant. I bet if you picked up the Latin Missal of the OF Mass, you would know from context and similar words what almost each prayer was saying because you already know it in English. It’s not like the Latin version uses some completely different prayers or mixes up the order of the Mass.– The priest may not have to be a Latin scholar but he needs to be proficient in Latin, i.e. that means he should understand (not just memorise) what he is saying and being proficient in any language means a person has the ability to converse in that language.
I’m inclined to agree. I don’t find Latin sich a huge obstacle based on my experience singing Gregorian chant.Not true. Why should a priest have to converse in Latin? He isn’t giving the homily in Latin. He only needs to have an understanding of what he is reading. Priests aren’t supposed to memorize the Mass anyway - they are always supposed to read it. It wouldn’t take an educated person very long with an English/Latin Missal to understand what each passage meant. I bet if you picked up the Latin Missal of the OF Mass, you would know from context and similar words what almost each prayer was saying because you already know it in English. It’s not like the Latin version uses some completely different prayers or mixes up the order of the Mass.
That brings us back to memorising. The Pope said that is not good enough. The priest has to be proficient in Latin. Proficiency in any language is much more than being able to memorise prayers.Not true. Why should a priest have to converse in Latin? He isn’t giving the homily in Latin. He only needs to have an understanding of what he is reading. Priests aren’t supposed to memorize the Mass anyway - they are always supposed to read it. It wouldn’t take an educated person very long with an English/Latin Missal to understand what each passage meant. I bet if you picked up the Latin Missal of the OF Mass, you would know from context and similar words what almost each prayer was saying because you already know it in English. It’s not like the Latin version uses some completely different prayers or mixes up the order of the Mass.
Proficiency is related to the task at hand. If you are going to converse with others in Latin, you need a much higher level of proficiency than if you are going to read standardized language from the Missal.That brings us back to memorising. The Pope said that is not good enough. The priest has to be proficient in Latin. Proficiency in any language is much more than being able to memorise prayers.
Actually all priests are required to be schooled in Latin, enough to be able to read Church documents and form the foundation to study philosophy and theology. (At least according to the newer USCCB guidelines.) The Latin in the Latin Vulgate and the EF (only 606 distinct words) is considerably easier, especially if the priest is familiar with the side-by-side Latin-vernacular. Besides there is only one Canon in the EF.That brings us back to memorising. The Pope said that is not good enough. The priest has to be proficient in Latin. Proficiency in any language is much more than being able to memorise prayers.
Its really sad then with many seminaries not even teaching Latin at all.Actually all priests are required to be schooled in Latin, enough to be able to read Church documents and form the foundation to study philosophy and theology. (At least according to the newer USCCB guidelines.) The Latin in the Latin Vulgate and the EF (only 606 distinct words) is considerably easier, especially if the priest is familiar with the side-by-side Latin-vernacular. Besides there is only one Canon in the EF.
Perhaps there are not enough teachers available.Its really sad then with many seminaries not even teaching Latin at all.
I can only speak for myself but when I took Latin at the university level, the study was more of a comparison between the various Roman writers, such as Cornelius Nepos, Virgil et al. I thought this was more interesting than straight translations, which many can find very frustrating. And let’s be realistic, translations involve a lot of creativity sometimes and paraphrasing into the right meter and sentence structure and grammatical sense, which most don’t have the skills for. But just because you can’t translate doesn’t mean you can’t learn or don’t know it. I used to get asked to translate Polish in a lab I used to work in. I know a lot of things just can’t be translated with the proper meaning intact. Puns and poetry are almost always lost in translations. IMO Latin needs to be taught earlier than high school and probably more along the ways we learned our native tongues. We didn’t translate then, we just got the gist of what was said from pictures, coloring, movements, etc. I think Rosetta Stone uses these concepts but it still takes some discipline and determination to learn any language. And let’s face it, a good teacher will instill that determination and a bad teacher, though he or she knows the stuff, won’t. I owe my mother for my knowledge of English and the funny thing is that she didn’t know much of it.Perhaps there are not enough teachers available.
I know that some people will say that a language can be learned from books or online, but I think that at a seminary, it’s vital to have a real person who is a good teacher imparting not only the language, but the classical background and culture.
The prep school that my children attended offers Latin, along with a series of various national Latin exams. Is Latin taught the same way post high school, to seminarians? Or do they only learn the Latin that they need to say a Mass? Surely they need a very deep understanding of Latin to be able to read the Church documents?
They study the documents in English. I got my MA and doctorate at a seminary and Latin was not offered. One would need to be very proficient to study the documents in Latin. Even my friends who went onto Pontifical Universities that required proficiency in Latin did not study texts in Latin. I think only those studying Canon Law are required to study texts in Latin.Perhaps there are not enough teachers available.
I know that some people will say that a language can be learned from books or online, but I think that at a seminary, it’s vital to have a real person who is a good teacher imparting not only the language, but the classical background and culture.
The prep school that my children attended offers Latin, along with a series of various national Latin exams. Is Latin taught the same way post high school, to seminarians? Or do they only learn the Latin that they need to say a Mass? Surely they need a very deep understanding of Latin to be able to read the Church documents?
My guess is that it is universal.As an earlier poster pointed out why is Canon Law being broken/ignored instead of enforced?
Is this canon universal or can the Bishops Conference in each country change this as they want?
Can. 249 The Charter of Priestly Formation is to provide that the students are not only taught their native language accurately, but are also well versed in latin, and have a suitable knowledge of other languages which would appear to be necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of their pastoral ministry.
All of this is true, but it’s worth bearing in mind we’re not really talking about commands or anything of the sort here. Summorum Pontificorum simply requires bishops to make a good-faith effort to accommodate the desires of the faithful; if they can’t, they can’t. As has been said, the EF Mass is extraordinary, so it may well be the case that in some places these sorts of accommodations cannot be made. Ecclesia Dei exists only to make sure that bishops do not wantonly or lazily suppress the EF out of spite (or whatever). My understanding is that the PCED will not really “force” a bishop to make accommodations, they will simply take matters into their own hands.Yes but there are several problems.
- The Church has not defined what “a stable group” means. It is not defined either in actual numbers or percentage of parishioners which could make it easy for a priest or bishop who isn’t keen to deny a request.
- Even if Rome overrules the Bishop a priest who is willing to do it has to be found.
- Even if a priest is willing to celebrate a Latin Mass he must be proficient in Latin. The Pope said it is not enough for a priest simply to memorise the Mass in Latin. He must be proficient in the language and understand what he is saying.
- Many seminaries do not even teach Latin anymore.
Do you know when Can 249 came into effect. What was the wording of this canon in the 1917 Code of Canon Law?My guess is that it is universal.
Can. 249 — Institutionis sacerdotalis Ratione provideatur ut alumni non tantum accurate linguam patriam edoceantur, sed etiam linguam latinam bene calleant necnon congruam habeant cognitionem alienarum linguarum, quarum scientia ad eorum formationem aut ad ministerium pastorale exercendum necessaria vel utilis videatur.
calleo, callere - to be practiced, experienced; to know by experience, understand
249 Ha de proveerse en el Plan de formación sacerdotal a que los alumnos, no sólo sean instruidos cuidadosamente en su lengua propia, sino a que dominen la lengua latina, y adquieran también aquel conocimiento conveniente de otros idiomas que resulte necesario o útil para su formación o para el ministerio pastoral. (Spanish)
Can. 249 - Le Programme de la formation sacerdotale pourvoira à ce que les séminaristes ne soient pas seulement instruits avec soin de leur langue maternelle, mais aussi sachent bien la langue latine, et qu’ils aient des connaissances suffisantes des langues étrangères dont la pratique paraît nécessaire ou utile à leur formation ou à l’exercice du ministère pastoral. (French)
249條 - 在司鐸培育計劃中，務使修士不只專心學習其本國語言，
而且要通曉拉丁文，並對其陶成及執行牧靈任務所必需的或有益的外
文，也應有適當的認識。(Traditional Chinese)
Can. 249 — In der Ordnung für die Priesterausbildung ist vorzusehen, daß die Alumnen nicht nur in ihrer Muttersprache sorgfältig unterwiesen werden, sondern daß sie sich auch auf die lateinische Sprache gut verstehen und eine ausreichende Kenntnis fremder Sprachen besitzen, deren Kenntnis für ihre Bildung oder für die Ausübung ihres seelsorglichen Dienstes notwendig oder nützlich erscheint. (German)
…
vatican.va/archive/cdc/index.htm
Not only the SC. Veterum Sapientia virtually condemned the vernacular and firmly stipulated that Latin was to continue to be studied.Do you know when Can 249 came into effect. What was the wording of this canon in the 1917 Code of Canon Law?
If Can. 249 was already in effect prior to the OF then there is no excuse for letting Latin slide as it has done because even with the advent of the OF, SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM states that Latin is still supposed to be used in the Mass, even the ones where the vernacular is used.