I want to be convinced

[Emptytundra]

I was baptised Catholic, but have been skeptical, agnostic, and indifferent about religion since I was very young. Lately the notion that we are all just sacks of meat and one day none if it will matter has become rather depressing - while it might be true, it seems unhealthy for individuals and for societies to acknowledge it as such. I want to believe there is more to life and the universe than food and sleep and television. I have been thinking seriously about suspending disbelief and attempting to return to Catholicism or at least Christianity, which will be difficult for a number of reasons.

One major impediment for me is the idea of worshipping a God who would allow people to suffer in hell for all eternity. I know apologists have filled libraries addressing this question and that people like Jimmy Akin and Trent Horn have provided some useful, concise responses. But I remain unconvinced. For me it is not just an abstract question (well what about Hitler… etc.) but rather something very personal. My father grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools, and had a basic familiarity with various arguments for God’s existence. He just remained unconvinced. I don’t think this was the result of arrogance or intransigence, but rather the conclusion he reached after considering the arguments. He remained an atheist until he died, and I specifically recall an incident when he was near death and he emphatically told someone at the hospital that he did not want to see a priest or anything like that. Apologists will say that people can be reconciled with God in ways that we don’t understand, and we can be hopeful of anyone’s salvation, but this seems like a cop out aimed at evangelizing to people like me. An honest assessment from a Catholic perspective would probably be something like yeah we can never be sure but he is probably in hell. And the idea of offering praise to an omnipotent entity when there is even a possibility that he would allow good people to go to hell because they honestly remain unconvinced by Christian apologetics is very unappealing. Even if I could bring myself to believe in such a God, and to fear Him, I don’t know that I could will myself to love him.

If anyone has any insights or recommend reading I would be grateful. Thank you and I’m sorry the post was so long, or if I posted it in the wrong place.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Well, two immediate thoughts despite the fact that I’m not necessarily the best person to address your concerns.

1. We all think “our people” are “good people”. I would have a hard time thinking of anyone I personally knew as being worthy of hell. The problem is, the more we get to know someone, the less objective is our ability to judge their situation. Fortunately, judging is beyond my pay grade. I still don’t think I’ve ever known anyone that would end up there, but there’s a lot about people I don’t know. (I’m a big fan of the notion that we have zero evidence that hell has a population of more than 1, namely Satan.)
2. Ultimately, God is love. A monk once explained that if you have to question anything, ask yourself if it seems like a loving thing or not, and that’s how you’ll be able to determine if it’s something of God. I don’t believe God sends anyone to hell, although the ‘option’ exists for people - like my first comment above, I just have a hard time imagining who that would be. Furthermore, I don’t think the “reconciliation beyond our understanding” is about evangelization; I’ve never thought about it that way before, but I do think it’s because those of us who say it know and understand the way in which God loves people. Like with my own children, there are rules to be followed and the way I’d prefer them to behave, but in the end, I’ll throw it out the window and move heaven and earth to protect them and do what is in their ultimate best interest even if they never saw it that way.

Still, in the end, you can love someone 36 ways to Sunday and do everything imaginable and still have them reject that love. We would say they’re rather sad people… in my mind, that’s hell; being that eternally hardened against the idea of love from outside oneself.

That’s my honest assessment, for what it’s worth.

 

[Lee1]

We are sacks of meat. Try to remember that, it should help you avoid sexual temptation.

But we are not just sacks of meat, try to remember that, it will help you develop spiritually imo.

The way I see it, I’m told there is a hell. I have no idea if that’s true but the Catholic Church has had centuries of experience and has been privy to information that I have not, so I believe them. They also hint at why anyone should go there and purgatory for that matter in the Catechism. They also tell us in the Catechism how some people do not go there contrary to popular belief.

Then there are the two new commandments which Jesus spoke of, love God with all your being and love your neighbour as yourself.

So to love your neighbour as yourself might seem difficult, firstly you may not love yourself, secondly they may be difficult types for you personally to love. I consider that I’m to love my neighbour/others as if they were of myself or from the same family line. That’s not a giant leap because we are related but also brothers and sisters as children of God. So my neighbour is like a distant cousin, I can try to give my distant cousin the benefit of the doubt long enough to start to like him or her. The other way to look at strangers is as if they were just like you, they have thoughts like you, wishes like you, vulnerabilities like you etc etc, I can have empathy for some poor soul is unfortunate enough to be like me! And love grows too, so I don’t personally expect to full blown love someone immediately I see them.

To love God with all my being. That’s not as hard as you might think, but again it takes time. Would you love God if He knew you completely? If He knew you completely and still loved you? I could learn to. What if He sent you little gifts on a regular basis? Like sunsets, moonshine, good friends, trees, the sky, apple pie etc. I could learn to like that a lot. What if when you prayed to Him He consoled you, answered your prayers in the oddest but most amazing ways from time to time. What if by following God’s laws and with His help you began to live a life free from fear? Free from all fear. And what if by doing so He gave you eternal life? Could you love someone like that with all your being? Maybe

God bless.

 

[Katherine438]

I believe Hell is for Satan and those that love him … I believe everyone else that was not ready for Heaven goes to purgatory and prepares for Heaven … God is all loving.

 

[Sirach2]

Apologists will say that people can be reconciled with God in ways that we don’t understand, and we can be hopeful of anyone’s salvation, but this seems like a cop out aimed at evangelizing to people like me.

That’s very true. Think about the Hail Mary, “pray for US sinners, now and at the hour of OUR death.” The wording is inclusive of others, not just for ourselves. Many in cloistered monasteries and convents pray continually for sinners, and it is quite probable that their prayers will be applied to some like your father, though you would have no way of knowing. We simply trust in God who may redeem these folks due to others’ prayers of intercession.

Mary asked at Fatima that we pray the rosary daily “for the conversion of sinners.” Many do so out of love and I believe that grace will often be applied to them.

 

[MT1926]

we are all just sacks of meat

Maybe try taking a closer look at the sacks of meat. Seeing how the human body is made and the things the human body can do just screams of a creator to me.

more to life and the universe than food and sleep and television.

How about Love. Maybe just try to put yourself on the back burner for a while. My oldest daughter in this way. When she spends to much time eating, sleeping and watching TV she gets depressed and doesn’t see her life going anywhere. This happens about 75% of the time. However, 25% of the time she starts concentrating on others. Comes out of her depression, becomes more active and is actually loving and easier to love. Not saying you do this just saying I see a direct connection between TV and not having much of a life.

I have been thinking seriously about suspending disbelief

Matthew Kelly says it…JUST DO THE NEXT RIGHT THING! Not sure what direction to go just do the next right thing in every decision you make. Coming here to talk sounds like the next right thing. Maybe try doing something nice for someone out of the blue. Like I said start with love. You can’t give love to a sack of meat, and a sack of meat doesn’t know what to do with love. So if anything maybe this will help you see that we aren’t sacks of meat.

a God who would allow people to suffer in hell for all eternity.

Sounds like you’ve been looking for an answer here not sure if this will help of not. I myself like the explanation of the heroin addict. You can do everything in your power to try to help the person out of their addiction but in the end they are the ones that have to choose between the heroin and you. The person has to freely choose God over their own desires. God allows us to make this choice.

An honest assessment from a Catholic perspective would probably be something like yeah we can never be sure but he is probably in hell.

I would disagree. As you said it wasn’t out of arrogance it was he remained unconvinced. I’m not going to say your father is definitely in heaven, don’t know not my call. But like I said you have to chose the heroin over love. To me a person that I would say fits into your scenario is the one who has no desire to hear the arguments. The one who puts his fingers in his ears screaming LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!

Even if I could bring myself to believe in such a God, and to fear Him, I don’t know that I could will myself to love him.

Why don’t you just start with loving your neighbor and see what happens. Like I said just do the next right thing. It’s all about love.

One last thing to keep in mind is that if you are loving your neighbor then you are already loving God.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

PS Your post was not to long. Please respond if any of this helps so we can keep up the conversation.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I would begin here:

The Problem of Evil : Strange Notions

 

[goout]

Faith is more than an intellectual exercise.
All of the relationship elements you practice with other people are part of faith. Trust. Commitment. Perseverance. Patience. All these are things you might practice with someone you love. Faith is a response to grace.

Why don’t you go all in personally with faith, and see if convincing follows.

 

[Carmelite1983]

My advice is to read about the saints and read about various Marian Apparitions

 

[fhansen]

If you really want to be convinced it’s not enough to simply go back to church. You have to seek. For yourself. You really have to need the answer and hope that there might be one. Pray, study, fast, listen, study: the bible, the catechism, early fathers, concilliar decrees, etc. Pray. God answers earnest seeking.

 

[Lee1]

One last thing to keep in mind is that if you are loving your neighbor then you are already loving God.

That is a very good point, since we are all endowed with the Holy Spirit.
Thank you.

 

[midori]

What is heaven? Heaven is the presence of God.

What is hell? Hell is the absence of God.

What is God? God is Love, God is Perfection, God is that which existed even when nothing else existed, and that which without nothing else can exist.

And the idea of offering praise to an omnipotent entity when there is even a possibility that he would allow good people to go to hell because they honestly remain unconvinced by Christian apologetics is very unappealing. Even if I could bring myself to believe in such a God, and to fear Him, I don’t know that I could will myself to love him.

If someone chooses to live their life separate from God— how would you feel about a God who demands them to live out their eternity in his presence? Someone who has separated themselves from God during life chooses to continue to separate themselves from him after death— but rather than separating themselves from what they think of God (some old guy in the sky demanding worship), they find themselves confronted with the idea of separation from God as he Is (everything that is good). Does someone persist in stubbornly rejecting God, even if they find out that the God they rejected was just some caricature that didn’t exist? Or does someone have the humility to say, “I was wrong” and ask for forgiveness when confronted with reality? Now, what happens if you move that timeline up, so that you don’t wait until the last possible moment for a change of heart?

So you need to figure out the difference between “what I think of as God” vs “what God really is”.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Here in our province we have penitentiaries, jails, a police force and judges. If you came to our city and only focused on these aspects and did not look at what else the city offers in terms of restaurants, parks, amusements, entertainment, sports events etc. you would be missing out on a whole lot.

I believe this is where you are stuck.
God is real and he has a plan for your life. He wants to work with you to be a force for good in this world, to bring blessing upon yourself, your family and friends, and really, to impact the world for good. Grab on to that idea. It will turn your life into something awesome where the power of God can be present in our ordinary circumstances.

“I want to partner with You to impact the world for good” is a good place to start. That is why you’re here, and why you are here today and not 500 years ago or 1000 years ago. God needs you here and now to enter into a partnership with him. Does that sound like something you could get behind?

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

The sacks of meat reference I believe is very problematic and is basically valuing humans for only their sexual value instead of anything else. This is a flaw of hookup and pornographic culture which has had an impact on me also.

Language like that I believe is objectifying and degrading.

I would suggest you read through one of the Gospels straight through in one sitting, perhaps Mark it’s the shortest. Let it truly inspire and grow in you!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Emptytundra,
I was where you are at one time.

Fact is, no one can give you faith, neither people nor religion.

Stop looking for a religion to fill your need.

Instead, if you desire faith, you must go to the source of faith, Jesus Christ.

Have Him prove Himself to you.

However, to do this, you must be willing to surrender your life to Him. This means, detaching yourself from all of your ideas and beliefs that you are hanging onto.

Try what was recommended to me.

Tonight, get a Bible and sit in a quiet place where you won’t be disturbed. Before opening the Bible, turn to Jesus and ask Him to come into your life with the gift of faith.

Then, open the Bible at any place that you come to. Read it without concerning yourself on whether it makes sense or not. Just read it and trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding you.

Then, close it and see how the next day goes.

God Bless
Jim

 

[fhansen]

I was baptised Catholic, but have been skeptical, agnostic, and indifferent about religion since I was very young. Lately the notion that we are all just sacks of meat and one day none if it will matter has become rather depressing - while it might be true, it seems unhealthy for individuals and for societies to acknowledge it as such. I want to believe there is more to life and the universe than food and sleep and television. I have been thinking seriously about suspending disbelief and attempting to return to Catholicism or at least Christianity, which will be difficult for a number of reasons.

First of all, the Incarnation is specifically about Jesus, about God Himself, becoming a sack of meat and entering our world as one of us. So the flesh is quite well sanctified by that act, if we had any doubt.

Secondly, I’m sure you’ve heard this before but hell is the deliberate rejection and absence of God/love in favor of cold selfish pride. We can pretty well “be there” already in this life. Jesus came to, among other things, prove just how good and trustworthy God is, while not desiring to override man’s will. The cross stands as an offer, of an ineffably huge love, as a demonstration of the extent that God would go to in order to demonstrate that love to us, the love we should follow Him in but aren’t forced to. That was God’s sack of meat willingly suffering an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh, at the hands of His own creation, forgiving all the while. And resurrecting to show that His love is eternal and we can participate eternally in it if we so desire. So Christianity establishes that love and goodness are foundational to this world, in spite of the ugliness we often experience here, in spite of sin and death.

 

[Hodos]

And the idea of offering praise to an omnipotent entity when there is even a possibility that he would allow good people to go to hell because they honestly remain unconvinced by Christian apologetics is very unappealing. Even if I could bring myself to believe in such a God, and to fear Him, I don’t know that I could will myself to love him.

Here is your issue, you are assuming that we are “good people.” The Christian faith assures us that we are not “good people.” We are in rebellion against God, we live lives that oppose God’s will, in doing so we sin against God and against one another. Minimizing the impact of sin is one of the biggest mistakes of the agnostic or atheist. If you read Romans 1-3 you will see that we are in rebellion against God, exchanging his truth for a lie (this is being actively done by us, not passively received). Sin is a big deal.

That being said, when people break criminal law in this realm we have no issue with the justice system punishing them, even though our justice system may not be perfect. Someone commits murder, or theft, or rape, or even something lesser such as perjury, we don’t bat an eye at them receiving the just punishment that is due to them, in some cases up to and including life in prison or demanding the death penalty. However, you hold God to a different standard, that somehow a just God should not likewise hold us accountable for our sin and the impact it has had on not only ourselves personally, but on everyone around us, and even on the state of the natural world (read Romans 8:18-25). If you can accept imperfect justice in this world, it is only logical that God, the maker of all things that gives them their function and purpose by the very act of creation, who alone is situated so that he can judge the far-reaching first, second, and third order effects of our sin on the entire creation, should have the prerogative to enact perfect justice. With regard to your reading, I think Romans does a nice job elaborating the issue of sin, and the good news that God sent his son to die for us to pay the penalty of our sin. Ephesians 2:1-10 also does a nice job and presents a very succinct description of the problem of sin as well as the gospel.

I hope this helps. God bless you and thank you for being so honest.

 

[KAMMYXPXP]

YES!

That’s what I was going to suggest.

Read the Bible.

It sounds like you have heard a lot about God through many other outside sources. Find out what He wants to tell you through His own words. Invite the Holy Spirit to guide you. A prayer that I learned from one of my first grade students is simply, “Jesus, help me.” Out of the mouth of babes…

During my long, dark time outside and in the wreckage, I finally prayed, “God, I can’t do this; I have no strength. I have fallen off the cliff and onto a ledge. The wind buffets me all around. You have to do this for me. Help! For I am truly helpless!”

He did answer my prayer. Praise and glory to Him. There is nothing I could do but submit. Now, I love Him and want to be with Him always. Like you, I have serious questions about God’s actions, but I ask Him why He does the things He does that I do not understand or that make me uncomfortable with who I think He is.

I am slowly being formed and refused to be brainwashed by anyone. The only One who can make me understand is the Holy Spirit who works through Scripture and those who submit to Him and who share their honest experiences. I hope this makes sense.

In John 17:17, Jesus said to sanctify them by your truth and then said your Word is truth.

Pray and read and be blessed by Him. God is good. The enemy is so crafty and has confused us about God in the worst of ways - it’s comparable to gossip and character assassination. It’s so easy to hate and not take time for the truth.

KAMMY

P.S. I love our good priests, so I talk to them, too.
Reconciliation is a balm in this tumultuous world!

 

[KAMMYXPXP]

I want to say that I am sorry for what you are going through; yet, on the other hand, if this crisis of faith brings you closer to God…Alleluia! I prayed for you and will continue to pray. I am learning that prayer and fasting are powerful weapons! God be with you.

 

[Emptytundra]

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I will reflect on all of this.