I want your opinion about a pretend situation

[FloridaCatholic]

For example, it costs about $42,000/year to house an inmate in state prison while treatment & rehab cost around $6,000-$8,000.

You’re assuming rehab and treatment always work. It costs a lot less to keep the drug addict/dealer incarcerated than it does sending him/her back to treatment again and again.

 

[on_the_hill]

We don’t offer all addicts rehab.

No, but we probably should. In many cases, release from prison is contingent on completing in-prison rehab. Also, addicted convicts have a recidivism rate of between 80% and 90%, whereas it’s much, much lower for those who’ve been through treatment. Below 20%, I think.

 

[on_the_hill]

on_the_hill:

For example, it costs about $42,000/year to house an inmate in state prison while treatment & rehab cost around $6,000-$8,000.

You’re assuming rehab and treatment always work. It costs a lot less to keep the drug addict/dealer incarcerated than it does sending him/her back to treatment again and again.

No, that’s not borne out by the data, at least as far as the expenses go. But I’m not going to start arguing over facts and figures. There are lots of online sources you can check if you’re inclined.

 

[FloridaCatholic]

What types of punishments would you recommend for the provider?

It would be a felony.
Manslaughter, most likely.

The mother?

Similar to what happens when you run a red light or a stop sign–you take an online course.

Only condoms for married couples? How do you see that working? What about birth control that is not an abortificant as many faiths see BC as morally acceptable. Remember, this is for all of society (in your country). I’m asking where you would compromise for the greater good of society that you could live with.

BC that isn’t an abortifacient is fine for married couples or for women who are prescribed it by their doctor. The OTC abortifacients would be illegal though

With online purchases, it is very hard to investigate who made the purchases. Would you require large amounts of tax dollars funding these types of investigation?

No, I wouldn’t require tax money going toward snooping around, but it would still be illegal to purchase, just as it’s illegal to buy weed or acid online. We already have a DEA

 

[FloridaCatholic]

That’s good to know.

 

[Pattylt]

If this is directed at me, NO. I am just curious as to how various Catholics would try to deal with the legal aftermath of illegal abortions. They will still happen and I often think we need to think beyond overturning RvW. I’m not Catholic but am interested in your views as I think the Catholic position has the strongest argument for being anti abortion.

 

[FloridaCatholic]

I just think I can’t answer this question without also addressing the fact that society needs to value marriage as an institution too for everything to work out right

If people actually waited to have sex until marriage there’d be a lot less problems. Less abortions, more stable families, support systems, etc

 

[Pattylt]

See my reply to floridacatholic. No, I’m not trying to fan flames. Kinda the opposite. To think through what the aftermath may be like from a legal perspective. I’m old enough to remember pre Roe v Wade and the providers were usually prosecuted and the mothers were not.

I am anti abortion but I think many other issues should be dealt with before we actually overturn it and I just don’t see THOSE type of issues being discussed and think they should be. It seems most anti abortionists want to outlaw it first, then look at the problems. I view it differently.
Thanks for your responses. I agree with your points.

 

[on_the_hill]

1. Legal punishment (or not) for anyone providing the abortion

Maybe punishment for someone managing or owning an entity that provides. I think it would be very difficult to construct laws to punish doctors because their medical guidelines/protocols are so often given precedence by legal authorities.

2. Legal punishment (or not) for the mother obtaining an abortion

No, I side with the Church on this one.

3. Provision of birth control (free or low cost) to anyone wanting it (remember this is for all of society, not just Catholics)

Birth control is now free or low cost. One of my daughters takes birth control pills to help control PCOS, another takes it because she has bad acne and takes Accutane. You can’t get Accutane unless you take BCP (and get a pregnancy test). The medications are provided at no cost. I guess it’s less expensive for the insurance company to provide free birth control than it is to insure pregnancies.

But in general, I’d say yes.

4. How should society deal with the ability to obtain chemical abortificants including obtaining them from overseas online

I don’t like the idea of people obtaining any medications from online overseas connections. And I don’t like the idea of people have take-home, DIY abortion drugs because it seems too risky (and yes, I know it’s always risky for the baby).

 

[Pattylt]

We aren’t all Christians (just saying…I know you realize that). Many now do allow it but you still want it illegal for all, correct?

BTW, I support your right to both feel and vote that way. Just want to clarify.

 

[JulianN]

Let’s pretend that Roe v Wade is overturned and all states outlaw abortion

Even if the first part of your sentence happened, the second would not. So women who could afford to do so would simply travel to where it is legal.

 

[13pollitos]

Serious question here. What about punishment for mothers who have abortions out of spite? Such as aborting to “punish” the father or grandparents? What about moms that abort to help cover infidelities? Would those of you opposed to prosecuting moms who abort be opposed to also prosecuting moms under those types of circumstances?

I have very mixed feeling on whether mother’s should be prosecuted, but I tend to lean towards prosecution in all circumstances. Murder is murder even when it is done under extreme stress

 

[Elf01]

'Doctor’and ‘mother’ should face legal consequences. Doctor: jail and license to practice revoked. Mother depends on the circumstances. I have heard Abby Johnson say that women would ask if it would hurt the baby so I’m not inclined to believe they don’t know what they’re doing any more.

As a Catholic no free bc but I would support free/ low cost NFP training.

Online policing would be hard. If resources were available yes but it would not be the highest priority.

 

[Pattylt]

I agree… I’m just asking the hypothetical question as a Catholic would view as ideal on the current abortion regulations so I can get an idea of how you would deal with the legal issues that arise later. I’m curious as to where Catholics would make compromises with their faith for overall society or where they wouldn’t.

Unfortunately, unless society makes a large U turn on sexual morality, sex will continue and pregnancy will continue. Sometimes the person seeking an abortion is married. Sometimes women think it won’t happen “just this one time”. Sometimes it’s rape or incest (I don’t really want to get into the exceptions). I’m hoping to look at these issues from a realistic approach, not an ideal one. Ideals would never have an unwanted pregnancy. That would be so awesome! But I want to be real here.

Thanks for the great answers so far and the discussions. This is exactly what I was looking for.

 

[PureKathleen46]

Murder is murder and anyone who has an abortion should have to pay along with the abortion doctor or helpers.

 

[phil19034]

@Pattylt

• Legal punishment (or not) for anyone providing the abortion <<<< The legal punishment must fall on the person providing the abortion, even if self-afflicted
• Legal punishment (or not) for the mother obtaining an abortion <<<< unless self-afflicted, the mother, generally, should not be punished. There are typically a lot of issues at play which forces a mother to kill her child. However, I could be convinced some kind of punishment may be acceptable to women who have multiple abortions. However, the provider should be the main party legally punished.
• Provision of birth control (free or low cost) to anyone wanting it (remember this is for all of society, not just Catholics) <<<< I don’t think the govt should DIRECTLY pay for birth control. I don’t have a legal issue with people have access to them, and I don’t have an issue with govt funded clinics offering them. But I wouldn’t want the govt to be DIRECTLY involved, nor do I agree with the idea that the govt should be allowed to force small business and non-profs to pay for birth control, IF it goes against the religious beliefs of the private owner or non-prof.
• How should society deal with the ability to obtain chemical abortificants including obtaining them from overseas online <<<< abortificants should be considered contraband and buying & selling them should be treated just like any other illegal drug. I’m not sure if you can prove or not that an abortiicant was used to abort a child, so prosecuting for abortion might be hard. But you can treat abortificants just like any other illegal drug.

God bless

 

[joeybaggz]

Even if the first part of your sentence happened, the second would not. So women who could afford to do so would simply travel to where it is legal.

And the abortion providers would simply open up clinics in Mexico, Canada, central America, Bermuda, the Bahamas, anywhere where it is still legal. And the airlines would have special flights to those places for those who wanted that service. Thinking abortion is going away because we pass laws is nonsense. It is, unfortunately, here to stay.
Personally, I think it ought to be restricted (legally) to first 12 weeks. Certainly legal for rape and incest. Never as a means of birth control because someone changed their mind. And that wouldn’t solve everything, either.

 

[phil19034]

I also think that there will be doctors and nurses with pro-choice convictions who perform the abortions in-house and just change the coding, e.g. to indicate that the fetus or embryo was already dead.

True… but they would be breaking the law, and there would be stiff punishments if caught, which (besides jail) should include them losing their medical license.

 

[phil19034]

JulianN:

Even if the first part of your sentence happened, the second would not. So women who could afford to do so would simply travel to where it is legal.

And the abortion providers would simply open up clinics in Mexico, Canada, central America, Bermuda, the Bahamas, anywhere where it is still legal. And the airlines would have special flights to those places for those who wanted that service. Thinking abortion is going away because we pass laws is nonsense. It is, unfortunately, here to stay.
Personally, I think it ought to be restricted (legally) to first 12 weeks. Certainly legal for rape and incest. Never as a means of birth control because someone changed their mind. And that wouldn’t solve everything, either.

Nothing we can do about that. People flying to places where prostitution is legal isn’t a valid enough reason to make prostitution legal.

Therefore, the same thing with abortion.

PERHAPS, there is a way to punish someone for having an abortion overseas? I’m not sure of the Constitutionality, but who knows? Maybe there is something that can be done, or not? Regardless, it’s illogical to make something legal just because SOME people are breaking the law.

 

[Pattylt]

Since several of you have agreed that the purchasing of online abortificants should be prosecuted, I would now like to ask how this should be pursued? I ask because if abortion was illegal, I think this avenue would explode. It is very hard to trace the purchase and also to prove that it was used to cause the “miscarriage”. I don’t know that there is a good answer to it. I think it is just a reality that will happen and cringe at the thought of the cost of investigation and prosecution to prove it. It could lead to almost as many abortions but the numbers would be completely unknown as an underground activity. Would you support a government agency being set up specifically to look into this activity? Funding it?

Would we just have to begrudgingly accept that it is happening? Or, do you think this would be a small set of abortions and why?

This is one of the issues that confound me the most. Even 10 years ago this would not have been an issue yet I think it could become huge if abortion was outlawed.

As I said, maybe this HAS no answers and would just BE there. It really scares me.