I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

  • Thread starter Thread starter vichlopet
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mikeledes said:
**34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." **

:hmmm: the end of that unforgiving servant does not sound very good. It also says that Christians that don’t forgive will suffer the same fate. You can’t get any clearer than that.

BTW, I’m surprised this thread is still open. It’s way past the 1000 post limit. 😃

God Bless,
Michael
Click to expand...
It’s a parable.

A didactic teaching, not a dogmatic teaching.

The Gospel of Christ is a Gospel of grace and peace, not one of tyranny in which God will eternally damn one of His elect because he hasn’t forgiven someone.

IMO, you and jmcrae (and others) don’t understand the Gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ. 🤷

I hope your works provide you all the merit you need to earn your salvation. :gopray2:
 
sandusky said:
It’s a parable.

A didactic teaching, not a dogmatic teaching.

The Gospel of Christ is a Gospel of grace and peace, not one of tyranny in which God will eternally damn one of His elect because he hasn’t forgiven someone.
Click to expand...
Your quarrel is with Jesus Christ. He is the One who says that the one who does not forgive will not be forgiven.
IMO, you and mikeledes (and others) don’t understand the Gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ. 🤷
Click to expand...
And apparently, neither does Jesus Christ, since He keeps repeatedly telling us that we must do good works, and be radically obedient, and shun sin, etc. 🤷
 
sandusky said:
I hope your works provide you all the merit you need to earn your salvation. :gopray2:
Click to expand...
Another (or is it the same) gross misinterpretation of what Catholics believe.
You KNOW that we do not think we EARN our salvation.

c’mon sandusky, quit with the childish, strawman falsities.
If you claim to know the truth, please use it in all cases.

michel
 
sandusky said:
IMO, you and mikeledes (and others) don’t understand the Gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ. 🤷

I hope your works provide you all the merit you need to earn your salvation. :gopray2:
Click to expand...
🤷 We understand the Gospel of Christ and we believe those passages in which Christ Himself indicates that one can lose their salvation (John 15, Luke 12, Matthew 18, etc.).

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
🤷 We understand the Gospel of Christ and we believe those passages in which Christ Himself indicates that one can lose their salvation (John 15, Luke 12, Matthew 18, etc.).

God Bless,
Michael
Click to expand...
It’s a parable.

A didactic teaching, not a dogmatic teaching.

Furthermore, you’re basing your position on a conditional statement: IF each of you does not forgive…

As I stated to Robert in SD earlier in the thread, the Catholic will always take the inference from a conditional statement and turn it into an absolute.

I hope your works provide you all the merit you need to earn your salvation. And I hope, God forbid that you should fail, for whatever reason, to forgive someone for something they’ve done to you. :gopray2:
 
cazayoux said:
Another (or is it the same) gross misinterpretation of what Catholics believe.
You KNOW that we do not think we EARN our salvation.

c’mon sandusky, quit with the childish, strawman falsities.
If you claim to know the truth, please use it in all cases.

michel
Click to expand...
See para 2010 of the CCC.
 
sandusky said:
It’s a parable.

A didactic teaching, not a dogmatic teaching.

Furthermore, you’re basing your position on a conditional statement: IF each of you does not forgive…

As I stated to Robert in SD earlier in the thread, the Catholic will always take the inference from a conditional statement and turn it into an absolute.

I hope your works provide you all the merit you need to earn your salvation. And I hope, God forbid that you should fail, for whatever reason, to forgive someone for something they’ve done to you. :gopray2:
Click to expand...
The problem is that there are two many of these “conditionals” and the Bible clearly points out that it can really happen:

Ezekeil 18:24

**24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. **

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. **

And if these were merely “conditional” statements, then I don’t see why Calvinist equivocate on a passage like…

John 15:6

**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

… presenting two different interpretations. It’s apparently not so simple.

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
The problem is that there are two many of these “conditionals” and the Bible clearly points out that it can really happen:

Ezekeil 18:24

24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

Hebrews 6:4-6

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

And if these were merely “conditional” statements, then I don’t see why Calvinist equivocate on a passage like…

John 15:6

**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

… presenting two different interpretations. It’s apparently not so simple.

God Bless,
Michael
Click to expand...
You will always take the inference to mean that salvation is “losable.”

That’s not good news.

But the Gospel of Christ, **is Good News, ** for those to whom He gives the ability to properly understand it and believe it. :extrahappy:
 
sandusky said:
See para 2010 of the CCC.
Click to expand...

Sorry, my mouse just kinda went nutty as I tried to only catch 2010 😉​

2007 **With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. **

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. **Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. **

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 **The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. **The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63
 
sandusky said:
You will always take the inference to mean that salvation is “losable.”

That’s not good news.

But the Gospel of Christ, is Good News, for those to whom He gives the ability to properly understand it and believe it. :extrahappy:
Click to expand...
Apparently, Paul was just kidding about getting “cut off” in Rom 11…
 
sandusky said:
You will always take the inference to mean that salvation is “losable.”

That’s not good news.

But the Gospel of Christ, is Good News, for those to whom He gives the ability to properly understand it and believe it. :extrahappy:
Click to expand...
🤷 And you always take the inference that it’s not losable.

And the Gospel is good news to those who abide by it.

1 John2:24-25

**24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. **

But it’s bad news for those who do not:

**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. **

God Bless,
Michael
 
40.png
mikeledes:
And you always take the inference that it’s not losable.

And the Gospel is good news to those who abide by it.
Click to expand...
You will always take the inference that salvation is “losable,” because you are presuppostionally bound by the requirements of your church to interpret the scripture through the lens of her interpretation contained in the deposit of faith.

I will always understand that salvation is not “losable,” because I am presuppositionally bound by the testimony of God to believe in His Gospel, a Gospel in which He promises that His elect will never perish. :extrahappy:
 
sandusky said:
You will always take the inference that salvation is “losable,” because you are presuppostionally bound by the requirements of your church to interpret the scripture through the lens of her interpretation contained in the deposit of faith.

I will always understand that salvation is not “losable,” because I am presuppositionally bound by the testimony of God to believe in His Gospel, a Gospel in which He promises that His elect will never perish. :extrahappy:
Click to expand...
More accurately, you are presuppositionally bound by your opinion of your interpretation of Scripture…
 
sandusky said:
You will always take the inference to mean that salvation is “losable.”

That’s not good news.

But the Gospel of Christ, is Good News, for those to whom He gives the ability to properly understand it and believe it. :extrahappy:
Click to expand...
The Good news is that we can have our sins forgiven thanks to Jesus.

Salvation is clearly losable:

John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit”.

John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

1 Corinthians 10:12 “Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall”.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
The Good news is that we can have our sins forgiven thanks to Jesus.

Salvation is clearly losable
Click to expand...
You will always take the inference that salvation is “losable,” because you are presuppostionally bound by the requirements of your church to interpret the scripture through the lens of her interpretation contained in the deposit of faith.

I will always understand that salvation is not “losable,” because I am presuppositionally bound by the testimony of God to believe in His Gospel, a Gospel in which He promises that His elect will never perish. :extrahappy:
 
sandusky said:
You will always take the inference that salvation is “losable,” because you are presuppostionally bound by the requirements of your church to interpret the scripture through the lens of her interpretation contained in the deposit of faith.

I will always understand that salvation is not “losable,” because I am presuppositionally bound by the testimony of God to believe in His Gospel, a Gospel in which He promises that His elect will never perish. :extrahappy:
Click to expand...
Perhaps it is because the bible tells us that it is losable.

Can you dispute the scripture I posted?
 
sandusky said:
🤷 I don’t dispute Scripture.
Click to expand...
You just did.

You said salvation is not losable.

Scripture says that it is:

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top