I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[sandusky]

Robert in SD:

How so?

Let’s say salvation is the equivalent of being pulled out of a pit. Jesus - by His cross and resurrection - pulls us out of the pit. We are free to throw ourselves back in, or to fall in if we are not carefull. How does this latter action on one’s part make Christ’s action “works-based?”

Christ came to give people “life,” and once life is given, He neither rescinds it, nor can the one to whom it’s given lose it (cf Jn 6:39; 1 Cor 15:45; Jn 5:21; Rom 8:2).

 

[sandusky]

jmcrae:

Actually, sin results in a loss of grace, and if you lose your grace (which came from God) then either you have to get it back, or else you won’t have it, and you won’t go to Heaven.

Proof?

jmcrae:

One way I have heard it expressed is, you can’t work your way into Heaven by means of good deeds, but you can certainly work your way out of Heaven by the lack of good deeds, and by means of committing sin.

Works are works, whether positive or negative; if one can lose salvation based upon negative works, than that is a salvation that is not of grace, but works.

 

[sandusky]

Gamera:

No, it isn’t. Salvation by works (a heresy called Pelagianism condemned by the Catholic Church) would be the idea that a person could perform enough good deeds to “earn” admission to heaven. Catholics don’t believe that.

I’m not talking about Pelagianism; what I said is that the salvation that can be lost by works, is a salvation that’s not by grace, but by works.

 

[Gamera]

I’m not talking about Pelagianism; what I said is that the salvation that can be lost by works, is a salvation that’s not by grace, but by works.

Just because Catholics believe sin removes grace, doesn’t mean we believe good works “earn” us grace. A bullet cannot give you life, but it can kill you. In the same manner, works cannot earn you grace but they can deprive you of grace. By your reasoning, anyone who thinks a bullet can kill must also think a bullet can give life.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Christ came to give people “life,” and once life is given, He neither rescinds it, nor can the one to whom it’s given lose it (cf Jn 6:39; 1 Cor 15:45; Jn 5:21; Rom 8:2).

I agree that Christ does not rescind His gift of life. But nowhere does it say that a person is shackled to the gift and cannot spurn or even kill it.

Jn 6:39 does not support your conclusion that one cannot lose salvation by rejecting the gift offered by Christ

1 Cor. 15:45 also does not support your conclusion. There is no question Jesus is the New Adam who brings life where the first brought death. This does not require your conclusion that one who is baptised into the Church cannot spend an eternity in Hell if they kill that grace freely given by God through their own conscious sin.

“For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.” Jn 5:21. This is not teaching that those who receive the life of Christ cannot spurn or even kill the grace of salvation by their own acts. (See Heb 10:27)

Like the other verses, Rom 5:8 only testifies to Christ’s power, but it does not say we cannot throw ourselves back into the pit, or slip into it gradually by our own sins… which alienate us in our relationship with God.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[reen12]

I always knew that Christianity was far too complex.
First, no one required ‘saving.’ That was a notion of Saul of Tarsus
‘What’s he talking about?’ said his former co-religionists.

[No wonder Paul is known as the Apostle to the Gentiles.
Try running by that ‘ontological’ sin business - past one who
knew Torah, and Paul wouldn’t have gotten to first base.]

So who was Jesus?

quote: reen12, from another thread

Christians hold that Jesus was a God/man.
They further hold that the God/man is the door to salvation.
[Since no one was waiting for a savior - that, in itself, is of interest.]

The continual reference made to C.S. Lewis’ statement
that Jesus was either a madman or God, is risible…
to those who have known ‘mad man.’

[A sweet man like Jesus of Nazareth could not be held to be lying,
which I think was Lewis’ third category.]

There are many, with good hearts, who are - on occassion, delusional.

Elwood P. Dowd - in the Pulizer Prize winning play, Harvey, comes to mind.
Elwood P. Dowd thought that he saw a 6 foot white rabbit, yet everyone
was very fond of him for his gentleness and kindness.
In all other respects, Elwood was perfectly with the program, except for that rabbit. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/Bunny2.jpg

The broad brush…that Lewis would use - simply reflects his own lack of knowledge,
as to that being described by him as a possible ‘mad man.’
Eccentric? Yes. “Mad man?” No. Jesus fits this first category, like a glove, but not the 2nd.

In this instance, Lewis thought in black and white tones. Either ‘sane’ or ‘mad.’

Clive…there are many points on the spectrum - and ‘eccentric’ is one of them.
[Cursing a fig tree - out of season - shoulda raised some eyebrows, but apparently not.]
Once decide that Jesus was a God/man, and he’s given carte blanche - in terms of his behavior. An ‘explanation’ is provided, to try to make eccentric behavior seem larded with meaning.

Jesus was a sweet, eccentric young man.

He made a fine rabbi, when he wasn’t thinking that he was
divine.

reen12

 

[Robert_in_SD]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/fonts2.jpg

An ‘economy’ of salvation. Grace as ‘commodity.’

One can ‘earn’ an indulgence, and have it ‘applied’ to another.

Like transferrring ‘assets?’ http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

Oh boy… here we go again reen.

The “economy of salvation” has nothing to do with economics. The meaning is the same as “history of salvation.” You read too much into the term.

Grace is not a commodity. It cannot be bought or sold. It is given freely by God to us. We, in turn, to a limited degree, can direct some of that grace - by an act of charity - to where it is needed in the body of Christ. This is because we are all members of one mystical body… the Body of Christ.

An indulgence does not remit sins. It remits the temporal punishment due for mortal sins already forgiven by God. And yes, it is an act of charity to seek an indulgence for another; and amounts to simply asking that God apply grace. It is not a purchase, or a bargained for exchange. It is all charity.

Jesus Christ was God from the beginning. Jesus says so. John says so. Paul says so. The Apostles said so with their blood. My faith is their faith. You are free to choose not to believe. In the end, we are all accountable to God.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[vichlopet]

James 2:19
You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Believing is more than just mental assent or recognition.
And an heir can be removed from the will and inherit nothing.

Help yourself brother, if you think that you can mantain your salvation, knock yourself out. As for me, I’m resting in the promise of Christ to save me, and keep me. I’m glad you quoted James 2:19; I love that scripture and use it often. The bible says;

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature…

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Help yourself brother, if you think that you can mantain your salvation, knock yourself out. As for me, I’m resting in the promise of Christ to save me, and keep me. I’m glad you quoted James 2:19; I love that scripture and use it often. The bible says;

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature…

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

You seem to be missing the point. We all agree salvation is attained by being in Christ. Where we disagree is on how one remains in Christ. As members of His Body we must each pick up our cross and follow Him. We are new creations in Him, no doubt. But we are new creations called for good works, not new creations called to rest. We are called to put on the yoke of Christ. That is part of the christian life. Hence, salvation comes from a life lived in faith, the faith that works in love. Salvation does not come from saying “Lord, Lord” but by putting on Christ, picking up our crosses and moving through calvary to salvation.

I’m happy that you love James. The question is do you live it?

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Gamera]

Vichlopet, I’m curious. Have you read the entire Bible cover to cover? How many times? How often do you read Scripture? How much Scripture do you read per session? Do you possess any qualifications that we should know about which enable you to interpret Scripture better than any other reader?

 

[churchcamefirst]

Help yourself brother, if you think that you can mantain your salvation, knock yourself out. As for me, I’m resting in the promise of Christ to save me, and keep me. I’m glad you quoted James 2:19; I love that scripture and use it often. The bible says;

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature…

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

What bible do you quote from?

 

[exoflare]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/Lionsasanxietiesaboutsalvationredoc.jpg

Like Daniel - surrounded by the lions…God rescued Daniel.

God has rescued, too, those surrounded by the lions of false doctrine,
who come to realize that grace truly is amazing.

“Whom the Son of man sets free, is free indeed.” [John 8: 36]

reen12

Thanks for the caption. When I first saw that picture I had no clue what those orange things were supposed to be.

 

[sandusky]

Gamera:

Just because Catholics believe sin removes grace, doesn’t mean we believe good works “earn” us grace.

From the CCC:**2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.**I suppose you’ll tell me that I don’t understand what that paragraph is saying?

Gamera:

A bullet cannot give you life, but it can kill you. In the same manner, works cannot earn you grace but they can deprive you of grace. By your reasoning, anyone who thinks a bullet can kill must also think a bullet can give life.

That’s your analogy, and your reasoning, Gamera, not mine.

 

[sandusky]

Robert in SD:

I agree that Christ does not rescind His gift of life. But nowhere does it say that a person is shackled to the gift and cannot spurn or even kill it.

That’s right; therefore, you’re arguing from silence. The best you can do is argue from inference that one can lose salvation—that’s the best that you can do.
Robert in SD:

Jn 6:39 does not support your conclusion that one cannot lose salvation by rejecting the gift offered by Christ

In that passage, Christ is charged with "raising up those given to Him by the Father on the last day,” ISTM that you’re denying that. Furthermore, it’s also stated in that passage that one is unable to come to Christ except that He be dragged to Christ by the Father.

Do you think that Christ is unable to do the will of the Father as stated in Jn 6:39?
Robert in SD:

1 Cor. 15:45 also does not support your conclusion. There is no question Jesus is the New Adam who brings life where the first brought death. This does not require your conclusion that one who is baptised into the Church cannot spend an eternity in Hell if they kill that grace freely given by God through their own conscious sin.

The salvation you describe above is not of grace, but of works.

“For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.” Jn 5:21. This is not teaching that those who receive the life of Christ cannot spurn or even kill the grace of salvation by their own acts. (See Heb 10:27)

See Jn 5:24, 29 as well; what you say doesn’t affect what I’ve said.
Robert in SD:

Like the other verses, Rom 5:8 only testifies to Christ’s power, but it does not say we cannot throw ourselves back into the pit, or slip into it gradually by our own sins… which alienate us in our relationship with God.

Again, you argue from silence.**Romans 8:30

…and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**According to that passage, what can be said of the true believer at the present time is that
he is justified.

According to the verse, what can be said of the true believer at a future time is that
he will be glorified.

 

[Gamera]

Originally Posted by Gamera
Just because Catholics believe sin removes grace, doesn’t mean we believe good works “earn” us grace.

From the CCC:2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.I suppose you’ll tell me that I don’t understand what that paragraph is saying?

I have no idea whether you understand what that paragraph is saying, Sandusky. It certainly doesn’t say we can “earn” salvation. Read the first sentence again:

… no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.

 

[Gamera]

Originally Posted by Gamera
A bullet cannot give you life, but it can kill you. In the same manner, works cannot earn you grace but they can deprive you of grace. By your reasoning, anyone who thinks a bullet can kill must also think a bullet can give life.

That’s your analogy, and your reasoning, Gamera, not mine.

Huh? It’s my analogy OF your reasoning. You wrote:

Works are works, whether positive or negative; if one can lose salvation based upon negative works, than that is a salvation that is not of grace, but works.

Bullets are bullets. So by your reasoning, anyone who believes bullets kill, must also believe bullets give life. Right?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Okay then, what about Jesus calling the Pharasees “children of the devil”. Were they God’s children?

Uh, yes, they were God’s children!

I realize that we are all God’s creation, but God is a Spirit, and all that worship him must do so in spirit and in truth. An unregenreate sinner can not worship God in spirit because he is spiritually dead.

The pharisees were only children of the devil while they held anti-God beliefs.

We are not to call someone “damned” while they still have the opportunity to turn toward God (to “repent”).

No one is “spiritually dead” until they die choosing not-God over God.

Now, what was your point again?

 

[sandusky]

I have no idea whether you understand what that paragraph is saying, Sandusky. It certainly doesn’t say we can “earn” salvation. Read the first sentence again:

… no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.

That’s what I figured.

 

[sandusky]

Huh? It’s my analogy OF your reasoning. You wrote:

Bullets are bullets. So by your reasoning, anyone who believes bullets kill, must also believe bullets give life. Right?

Your analogy, your reasoning.

 

[Gamera]

Your analogy, your reasoning.

No, it isn’t my reasoning, it isn’t what I think or believe at all. You’re the one who stated that since Catholics believe one can lose salvation by bad works, Catholics must believe they can earn salvation by good works. That is your reasoning. I’m the guy who disagreed.