I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[sandusky]

dmelosi:

Mt 24:13 tells us that we must persevere to the end in order to be saved. You agree with the Catholic view with your statements…

That is, first and foremost, God’s view, dmelosi, and my view as well.

dmelosi:

You claimed that you knew you were saved. Then you answered my 4 questions with 1 answer “You got it.”

I questioned you about predicting the future and you asked where you did that. I simply pointed that out.

Yes…I have been working…so not sure why you were upset and accused me of ducking you because I didn’t answer you right away.

But it seems like you are twisting things in every post, yet you agree.

Pretty confusing.

Did you read any of the verses I posted for comparison?

Here’s one that I didn’t post:**James 1:2-4

2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,

3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.**Does that passage give me a look at the future, and the ability to know something about it?

 

[maurin]

Well I never actually considered the two to being related…his church and the Catholic church.

So then your first premise is incorrect. His Church, the only one He founded, is the Catholic Church, and Her little sister, the Orthodox retains her Priesthood and Eucharist validly.

These were conceived from above by God Himself. These other ecclesial communities were conceived from below, from man and devoid of Life at their inceptions.

 

[vichlopet]

People sometimes leave their families and change their names becaue they don’t like their families; sometimes, people are disinherited and/or asked to leave the family home because their behaviour or attitude is contrary to the values of that family.

Being born or adopted into a family gives you a strong chance of remaining a member of that family for your whole life (and remains the only way to become a member), but it isn’t an absolute guarantee.

My father can disinherit me all he wants…I’ll never cease from being his son.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

With respect to my sonship in Christ, I don’t beleive that someone who is born again can forsake Christ because he is born of God. See I John 3:9, Eph 1:13, and Ephesians 4:30
If a man does forsake Christ then he is like Judas was, and that is: “a devil from the beginning”.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

How is one born into a family and then cease to be a family member? …strange doctrine.

All of humanity are God’s children.

But, some children choose to go over “here”, and some choose to go “over there”.

No one ceases being a child of God. But God won’t deny our free will choice of hell, or heaven.

 

[sandusky]

My father can disinherit me all he wants…I’ll never cease from being his son.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

With respect to my sonship in Christ, I don’t beleive that someone who is born again can forsake Christ because he is born of God. See I John 3:9, Eph 1:13, and Ephesians 4:30

If a man does forsake Christ then he is like Judas was, and that is: “a devil from the beginning”.

.

:yup:
.

 

[cfrancis]

My father can disinherit me all he wants…I’ll never cease from being his son.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

With respect to my sonship in Christ, I don’t beleive that someone who is born again can forsake Christ because he is born of God. See I John 3:9, Eph 1:13, and Ephesians 4:30
If a man does forsake Christ then he is like Judas was, and that is: “a devil from the beginning”.

Your reasoning makes Paul’s writing - God’s Word - hollow:
Phil 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

 

[sandusky]

cfrancis:

Your reasoning makes Paul’s writing - God’s Word - hollow:

Phil 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

That’s out of context:**Philippians 2:13

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.**It’s God who’s at work in the believer, and He may discipline the believer, should the believer stray.

Also:**Philippians 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.**There’s assurance given to the believer in the beginning of the letter.

In the context of this passage…**Rom 11

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.**…it is continued arrogance toward the Jews that is the condition of not being spared.

 

[cfrancis]

That’s out of context:Philippians 2:13

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.It’s God who’s at work in the believer, and He may discipline the believer, should the believer stray.

Also:Philippians 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.There’s assurance given to the believer in the beginning of the letter.

In the context of this passage…Rom 11

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.…it is continued arrogance toward the Jews that is the condition of not being spared.

Uh…the natural branches are the Jews, and the grafted branches are us, the Gentiles. Paul clearly states we - the grafted branches - may be cut off

As for Phil 2, v12 in no way removes the meaning from v13: Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, not to work out possible God’s discipline.

As for Phil 1, Paul’s confidence does not mean he was given knowledge of the future; but it does mean, if we continue to do as we are told - to work out our salvation in fear and trembling - in short, if we persever to the end…

 

[sandusky]

cfrancis:

Uh…the natural branches are the Jews, and the grafted branches are us, the Gentiles. Paul clearly states we - the grafted branches - may be cut off

Err…that’s conditional—whether or not they continue in their haughtiness, arrogance and conceit concerning their having been in-grafted, or, whether or not they continue in God’s kindness by faith: "if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

cfrancis:

As for Phil 2, v12 in no way removes the meaning from v13: Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, not to work out possible God’s discipline.

Which is not what I said. What I said was, the reason to work out salvation with fear and trembling is that God is the one who is at work in the believer to will and to work. If the believer resists, God may discipline Him.

cfrancis:

As for Phil 1, Paul’s confidence does not mean he was given knowledge of the future; but it does mean, if we continue to do as we are told - to work out our salvation in fear and trembling - in short, if we persever to the end…

Paul states in the passage that his (Paul’s) confidence in the believer’s salvation is where it should be; namely, in God, and that God will complete the work of salvation that He’s begun in each believer; IOW, the believer will persevere because perseverance is part and parcel of salvation (cf Rom 8:28ff).

 

[jmcrae]

Err…that’s conditional—whether or not they continue in their haughtiness, arrogance and conceit concerning their having been in-grafted, or, whether or not they continue in God’s kindness by faith: “if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Which is not what I said. What I said was, the reason to work out salvation with fear and trembling is that God is the one who is at work in the believer to will and to work. If the believer resists, God may discipline Him.

It’s not just “discipline” - he loses his salvation and goes to Hell, if he sins.

 

[cfrancis]

Err…that’s conditional—whether or not they continue in their haughtiness, arrogance and conceit concerning their having been in-grafted, or, whether or not they continue in God’s kindness by faith: “if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Which means a Christian - to whom Paul is writing in both Romans and Philippians, can be cut-off! Exactly!

Which is not what I said. What I said was, the reason to work out salvation with fear and trembling is that God is the one who is at work in the believer to will and to work. If the believer resists, God may discipline Him.

As JM says, Paul does not even mention discipline! He is speaking about salvation!

Paul states in the passage that his (Paul’s) confidence in the believer’s salvation is where it should be; namely, in God, and that God will complete the work of salvation that He’s begun in each believer; IOW, the believer will persevere because perseverance is part and parcel of salvation (cf Rom 8:28ff).

Paul, in both Romans and Philippians is writing to Christians, those who have already been baptized and are part of the Church. If, as you say, we are guaranteed to persevere once we are saved, then Paul’s words are not only hollow, but not necessary.
Instead, NT shows many Christians who did not always persevere. Some came back to the faith (Peter!) and some did not (Ananias and Sapphira).

 

[vichlopet]

All of humanity are God’s children.

Okay then, what about Jesus calling the Pharasees “children of the devil”. Were they God’s children? I realize that we are all God’s creation, but God is a Spirit, and all that worship him must do so in spirit and in truth. An unregenreate sinner can not worship God in spirit because he is spiritually dead.

 

[cfrancis]

Okay then, what about Jesus calling the Pharasees “children of the devil”. Were they God’s children? I realize that we are all God’s creation, but God is a Spirit, and all that worship him must do so in spirit and in truth. An **unregenreate sinner **can not worship God in spirit because he is spiritually dead.

What about a Christian who sins mortally? He, too, is spiritually dead (1 Jn 5:16-17)

 

[Robert_in_SD]

What about birth? Is that a one time event? Or must one have multiple spiritual rebirths? I don’t know who is a true convert and who is a Judas, but I do know that “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
John 1:12.
How is one born into a family and then cease to be a family member? …strange doctrine.

It’s not just a question of being born into the family of God (acheived by baptism). It’s a question of inheritence. I believe that one must be born again of water and the spirit (in baptism) to become a child of God and a member of the Church i.e. the family of God. Yes, this birth is a one-time event that makes one a member of the family of God. Hence, we christians all profess “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins” (Nicine Creed) But not all of God’s children remain heirs. You agree that there is a distinction between being a son and being an heir, right? Fathers can disinherit unworthy children. And children can spurn the gifts of a loving Father.

Let me put it this way: Do you believe that every member of a family has, by virtue of their birth alone, the right to demand an inheritence of their Father? Or is it only those who do the will of the Father that gain the inheritence? Here’s a hint from Scripture…

Mk 3:35 “Whoever **does **the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Peace,
-Robert

 

[vichlopet]

What about a Christian who sins mortally? He, too, is spiritually dead (1 Jn 5:16-17)

why did you stop at verse 17? verse 18 is the answer. Are you born of God? Then that which is born of God can not sin, it’s your new nature, the spiritual man made in the likeness of Christ.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

My father can disinherit me all he wants…I’ll never cease from being his son.

You are, and will continue to be His creation. That will not change because He is the author of all creation. But if the Father disinherits you, it will mean you have lost salvation. I pray this does not happen to you, but I believe it has happened to many who, at one time in their life, believed they could never turn away from the Lord.

vichlopet:

With respect to my sonship in Christ, I don’t beleive that someone who is born again can forsake Christ because he is born of God. See I John 3:9, Eph 1:13, and Ephesians 4:30 If a man does forsake Christ then he is like Judas was, and that is: “a devil from the beginning”.

So, what you are saying is that you personally cannot imagine forsaking Christ. That proves only a lack of imagination on your part. Perhaps when Judas first took up with Jesus and the disciples he also could not imagine he was capable of such treachery. Yet it happened … and he was one of the twelve chosen personally by our Savior.

The possibility of forsaking Christ exists so long as God’s gift of free will exists. And for so long as you love God, you will have free will becuase love must be freely given or it is merely a form of rape.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

why did you stop at verse 17? verse 18 is the answer. Are you born of God? Then that which is born of God can not sin, it’s your new nature, the spiritual man made in the likeness of Christ.

Why did you not quote all of the 18th verse? Here is the whole chapter (1 Jn 5:1-21):

[1] Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child.
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
[4] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.
[5] Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
[6] This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood.
[7] And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
[8] There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.
[9] If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son.
[10] He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son.
[11] And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.
[13] I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
[14] And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
[15] And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him.
[16] If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
[17] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
[18] We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
[19] We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.
[20] And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
[21] Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

I see nothing contradictory to the Catholic faith in these verses, when read in context with the whole chapter, and the chapter taken in context with the rest of scripture, and in the light of Church Tradition. It is a part of the consistent whole teaching.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[vichlopet]

Let me put it this way: Do you believe that every member of a family has, by virtue of their birth alone, the right to demand an inheritence of their Father? Or is it only those who do the will of the Father that gain the inheritence? Here’s a hint from Scripture…

Mk 3:35 “Whoever **does **the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Peace,
-Robert

I appreciate the hint. What’s the will of God?

John 6:40 says:
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 4:7
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[cfrancis]

I appreciate the hint. What’s the will of God?

John 6:40 says:
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 4:7
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Believing is more than just mental assent or recognition.
And an heir can be removed from the will and inherit nothing.

 

[reen12]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Like Daniel - surrounded by the lions…God rescued Daniel.

God has rescued, too, those surrounded by the lions of false doctrine,
who come to realize that grace truly is amazing.

“Whom the Son of man sets free, is free indeed.” [John 8: 36]

reen12