I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[sandusky]

Yes, he did.

It was restored to him when he made his Confession to Nathan the Prophet, and Nathan the Prophet, speaking alter Christus, showed him the penance that he would suffer in atonement for his sin (the death of his child).

And where is that stated?

 

[jmcrae]

And where is that stated?

Have you read the story?

It’s found in chapters 11 and 12 of II Samuel.

 

[Gamera]

Because you don’t believe what I’m telling you—faith in the biblical gospel is essential.

Wait, wait, wait … so is your view that I must believe in OSAS in order to be saved? It isn’t enough to repent of sins and ask Jesus to forgive me — I’m still not saved until I also accept OSAS?

 

[sandusky]

Have you read the story?

I have, and grace isn’t mentioned; perhaps your committment to your tradition read in?

 

[jmcrae]

I have, and grace isn’t mentioned; perhaps your committment to your tradition read in?

So, the word “grace” has to be in there, for me to understand that David committed a sin, confessed it, received a penance, and then was restored to grace?

Tell me, if David was pre-forgiven of his sin, why did Nathan have that little talk with him? Was Nathan just being a busy-body?

 

[sandusky]

Gamera:

Wait, wait, wait … so is your view that I must believe in OSAS in order to be saved? It isn’t enough to repent of sins and ask Jesus to forgive me — I’m still not saved until I also accept OSAS?

I don’t recall saying anything about OSAS in my post to you; if I did, will you point out where?

Also, define what you mean by OSAS.

 

[sandusky]

jmcrae:

So, the word “grace” has to be in there, for me to understand that David committed a sin, confessed it, received a penance, and then was restored to grace?

Tell me, if David was pre-forgiven of his sin, why did Nathan have that little talk with him? Was Nathan just being a busy-body?

Judith, you’re claiming David lost grace; I can’t think of anyplace in scripture where it’s stated that anyone has lost, or loses grace; therefore, I’m asking where you get the notion.

If you can’t support it from scripture, just say so, and we’ll chock it up to your tradition.

 

[Mickey]

If you can’t support it from scripture, just say so, and we’ll chock it up to your tradition.

Psalm 50
Miserere. The repentance and confession of David after his sin. The fourth penitential psalm.
1 Unto the end, a psalm of David, 2 When Nathan the prophet came to him after he had sinned with Bethsabee. 3 Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy great mercy. And according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my iniquity. 4 Wash me yet more from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 5 For I know my iniquity, and my sin is always before me.
6 To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged. 7 For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me. 8 For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me. 9 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow. 10 To my hearing thou shalt give joy and gladness: and the bones that have been humbled shall rejoice.
11 Turn away thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. 12 Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within my bowels. 13 Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 14 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, and strengthen me with a perfect spirit. 15 I will teach the unjust thy ways: and the wicked shall be converted to thee. 16 Deliver me from blood, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall extol thy justice. 17 O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise. 18 For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted. 19 A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 20 Deal favourably, O Lord, in thy good will with Sion; that the walls of Jerusalem may be built up. 21 Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar.

 

[jmcrae]

Judith, you’re claiming David lost grace; I can’t think of anyplace in scripture where it’s stated that anyone has lost, or loses grace; therefore, I’m asking where you get the notion.

What is “grace” to your way of thinking? (It is the state of being without sin, is it not?)

Mickey has shown where David thought he was not without sin (that is to say, he was not in the state of grace), in the incident with Bathsheba.

 

[sandusky]

Psalm 50
Miserere. The repentance and confession of David after his sin. The fourth penitential psalm.
1 Unto the end, a psalm of David, 2 When Nathan the prophet came to him after he had sinned with Bethsabee. 3 Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy great mercy. And according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my iniquity. 4 Wash me yet more from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 5 For I know my iniquity, and my sin is always before me.
6 To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged. 7 For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me. 8 For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me. 9 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow. 10 To my hearing thou shalt give joy and gladness: and the bones that have been humbled shall rejoice.
11 Turn away thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. 12 Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within my bowels. 13 Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 14 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, and strengthen me with a perfect spirit. 15 I will teach the unjust thy ways: and the wicked shall be converted to thee. 16 Deliver me from blood, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall extol thy justice. 17 O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise. 18 For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted. 19 A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 20 Deal favourably, O Lord, in thy good will with Sion; that the walls of Jerusalem may be built up. 21 Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar.

G-r-a-c-e; where is it?

 

[sandusky]

What is “grace” to your way of thinking? (It is the state of being without sin, is it not?)

Grace = the state of being without sin.

Where is that stated?

 

[cfrancis]

G-r-a-c-e; where is it?

EDIT: Are you looking for the word “grace”?

 

[East_and_West]

It just occured to me that I have never regreted my conversion. When I was saved, no one told me that I have to leave the Catholic religion, I simply believed that Jesus Christ paid for my sins with his blood and I called upon him to save me: just like the Philipian jailer in Acts 16:31. He asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” He did, and he was. To the saved believer, the thought of someone trying to administer God’s grace through some ritual is the highest form of idolatry there is. Jesus said, “it is finished”, not ‘it’s begun’.

I just hope that people will see that God’s grace is through faith in Christ and not in some man made rituals. May the Lord truly bless every one who is seeking to know him in truth.

You me mean “man-made” like your protestant religion that didn’t exist until Martin Luther came on the scene?

 

[jmcrae]

Grace = the state of being without sin.

Where is that stated?

Probably the dictionary.

If you redefine words to mean whatever you want them to mean, I think you will ultimately end up like Humpty Dumpty (reference: Alice Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll.)

 

[Pixie_Dust]

You me mean “man-made” like your protestant religion that didn’t exist until Martin Luther came on the scene?

Actually, he is Baptist now, so his religion didn’t exist until about 400 years ago, nearly 100 years younger than Lutheranism. In fact, some of his beliefs come from a line of thought that’s only been around since 1830.

 

[KevinInMN]

I like the one where the blind man wants to be healed and Christ mixes mud and spittle in His hands and rubs it on the mans eyes with the instructions to go and wash it off.
He did not have to do that, He could have just healed him with a thought, even without ever meeting the man, but He let the man come to Him and He chose to use matter, mud and spittle, and a little ritual, washing oneself.
He knows us very well I suppose and we, as material, as well as spiritual creatures need to know and sense something has happened.
Baptism with water, eat the bread of life, laying on of hands, etc. are all the material methods and rituals He chose as real conduits of grace, and not man made rituals.

The part I find most interesting is that when Christ first did this the man’s eyesight came in but blurry and he did it again and the man’s vision was completely healed. I believe that is a function of faith of the man in Christ’s abilities and when he saw it was possible he believed and Christ completed his healing. Christ could have done it without doing it twice but the man needed to believe it was possible to be healed. Christ helped him by partially restoring his sight first.

I wonder what miracles He could make in our lives if we only believed that he could and will?

 

[Gamera]

Judith, you’re claiming David lost grace; I can’t think of anyplace in scripture where it’s stated that anyone has lost, or loses grace; therefore, I’m asking where you get the notion.

If you can’t support it from scripture, just say so, and we’ll chock it up to your tradition.

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace,” Gal 5:4.

Guess we can chalk it up to the Bible.

 

[Gamera]

I don’t recall saying anything about OSAS in my post to you; if I did, will you point out where?

Here:
"sandusky:

In Christ I have the complete forgiveness of sins, and you don’t.

In Christ I have a permanent right standing with God, and you don’t.

In Christ I have the assurance of eternal life based upon His promises and power, and you don’t.

I have the fullness of Truth.

---

Sandusky

So now it isn’t enough for salvation to believe in Jesus – I also must agree with in the theology of “assurance of salvation.” So much for “faith alone.”

Also, define what you mean by OSAS.

OSAS (“once saved, always saved”) is the false, manmade, anti-Biblical doctrine that a person who enters a state of grace never can lose it.

 

[sandusky]

jmcrae:

Probably the dictionary.

grace \ˈgrās\ noun
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin gratia favor, charm, thanks, from gratus pleasing, grateful; akin to Sanskrit gṛṇāti he praises]
(12th century)
1 a : unmerited divine assistance given man for his regeneration or sanctification
b : a virtue coming from God
c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2 a : APPROVAL, FAVOR
b archaic : MERCY, PARDON
c : a special favor : PRIVILEGE <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage —Rudyard Kipling>
d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency
e : a temporary exemption : REPRIEVE
3 a : a charming or attractive trait or characteristic
b : a pleasingly graceful appearance or effect : CHARM
c : ease and suppleness of movement or bearing
4 — used as a title of address or reference for a duke, a duchess, or an archbishop
5 : a short prayer at a meal asking a blessing or giving thanks
6 plural, capitalized : three sister goddesses in Greek mythology who are the givers of charm and beauty
7 : a musical trill, turn, or appoggiatura
8 a : sense of propriety or right <had the grace not to run for elective office —Calvin Trillin>
b : the quality or state of being considerate or thoughtful

(From Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 10th ed.Nope; it’s not there.

jmcrae:

If you redefine words to mean whatever you want them to mean, I think you will ultimately end up like Humpty Dumpty (reference: Alice Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll.)

Where have I “redefined” grace, Judith? Give me the post number.

 

[sandusky]

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace,” Gal 5:4.

Guess we can chalk it up to the Bible.

I could’ve cited that myself had this been concerned with “falling out” from grace; however, that’s not what wina stated originally (see post #312), but losing grace.

Where in scripture is one said to “lose” grace?" (Gk appolumi).

I know where scripture says that one can “fall out” (Gk ekpiptio) from grace, and the reason given for that falling out.

Those are two different things.

Again, where in scripture is one said to “lose” grace? (Gk appolumi).