I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[fbl9]

Thank you, flb9, for helping make my point.

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ…”

Dead sinners can’t believe without God.

by the same reson these people are dead also makes it the same reson they can reject God’s mercy…

 

[sandusky]

by the same reson these people are dead also makes it the same reson they can reject God’s mercy…

They’re dead—they’re not even aware of God’s mercy.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

.

CHESTERTONRULES:

.

What about you, CHESTERTONRULES? With a god like that, who needs the devil?

.

Two points:

First, if you want Catholic Doctrine, go to the Catechism, not a Catholic individual.

Second, there is no doubt that God knows who will choose him.

The difference between you and I is that I believe God gives the grace to all men that enables them to choose him.

Without grace we can’t be saved, but with it we still may not be saved.

God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, but he won’t force us!

 

[sandusky]

CHESTERTONRULES:

Two points:

First, if you want Catholic Doctrine, go to the Catechism, not a Catholic individual.

Second, there is no doubt that God knows who will choose him.

ISTM that bases grace upon foreseen merit.

CHESTERTONRULES:

The difference between you and I is that I believe God gives the grace to all men that enables them to choose him.

Where’s the proof?

CHESTERTONRULES:

Without grace we can’t be saved, but with it we still may not be saved.

Why? How? What?

CHESTERTONRULES:

God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, but he won’t force us!

Who says God forces men to believe?

 

[jmcrae]

FYI, He’s speaking to the Jews; there was no church at that time.

The purpose of the parables was to tell the people what the Church was going to be like, and what Heaven was going to be like. The subject of the parables is the Church and the afterlife. Jesus was not just wasting time telling pointless stories; He was illustrating who He is, and who we are and will be in relation to Him.

 

[benedictus2]

You have the same dilemma in your predestination, but the church denies it. What the church has done is word her form of predestination in terms she considers “more palatable,” specifically with respect to free-will. Free-will, according to the scripture, is not really “free” in the libertarian sense that it’s able to choose the good from the bad; clearly that was destroyed when Adam fell.

Quite the contrary. Please re-read my entire post.

But so we are clear:

Point1:
That you have been unable to refute with any logical/rational argument my conclusion that your idea of God is a god who creates human beings just for the pleasure or making them suffer” means that you agree with me that no other conclusion can be derived from your post.

It follows therefore that you agree with me that your belief is consistent with a god who is an evil, psychopathic despot for there is no other way to describe a god who creates human beings so He could torture them for all eternity.

All above conclusions are arrived at logically. If you disagree, show me where I err in my syllogism.

Point 2:
I have shown that the Catholic Church believes quite the contrary because we believe that:

a) God created all humankind for Himself out of love, so we can love Him in return of our own free will. There is no coercion for anything less will not be love.

b) Christ died for All out of love. No exceptions. (refer to the passages on the good shepherd who leaves the 99 to seek out the one who is lost)

c) Man however, can either accept or reject this grace that flows from Christ. Christ does not force his grace on any one. Christ issues the invitation to follow him. We choose whether we do or we don’t’

d) Those who accept Christ’s grace and follows him and so, does the will of the Father (not the ones who call him Lord, Lord) are the ones who go to share enternity with Him. Those who do not do the will of the Father are damned.

e) Because God is in Eternity, he already sees the outcome of this courtship even though we don’t. And that is why I wrote in big bold letters: **PREDESTINATION IS GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE. **HE ALREADY SEE’S THE END OF THE GAME, WE ARE STILL PLAYING IT.
HE knows that we will BY OUR CHOICE, CHOOSE EITHER HEAVEN OR HELL.

So now, please show by a syllogism how one can arrive at an evil god based on the above 5 premises.

 

[benedictus2]

Back to the issue of God creating men for the sole purpose of sending them to hell, it must be remembered that had God created men, let them all live on the earth, and then, redeemed none, but sent them all to hell, He would have been right and just in doing so.

Oh no, you really are digging yourself deeper and deeper into this muck.

Read your post above and picture that god in your head, who has just sent all bar one, into eternal pain and punishment, because you have in effect just said that Jesus Christ who is God is an evil despot.

And you dare say that my post below is an appeal to emotion.

benedictus2:

But I say the loving God of Scripture is not like the god of your posts.

Tell me if your post above can be reconciled to the God of love that you find in Scripture.

“The Bible alone” will probably not be so bad if you do preach the “Bible Alone”.

The problem is what it really means is “SOME PARTS of the Bible Alone”. Only those parts that support “Faith Alone” that’s why you ended up reasoning yourself into heresy.

…

 

[benedictus2]

Actually, your church has it backwards (it always puts man in the position of primacy, IMO, though you’ll deny that). It’s God who chooses who will be in His kingdom, much as you choose who will be in your circle, and who will enter your “kingdom,” or home. You claim the right for yourself to choose who it is that will enter your dwelling place, but you deny God that same right. That’s the point being made in Jn 6:26-65; namely, it’s God who chooses who will believe, and who will enter His Kingdom.

Here again you are wrong.

The Catholic Church has got it right. We affirm that God CHOOSES who He wishes to join Him in His circle. But where we differ is that we are saying that God has issued the invitation to ALL not just some.

Some replied to the RSVP with a Yes and turned up, some said Yes and did not turn up and some said an outright No.

It was GOD’S CHOICE TO BECOME MAN, AND TO DIE FOR EVERYONE. You on the contrary, will not accept a God who humbled himself to the point of dying on the cross in order to WOO HIS ERRANT BRIDE **because you are much too concerned with his power. **

Christ has shown us that God is humble but you want to impute on Him an arrogance that is just not there.

On the night He was betrayed, he washed his Disciples feet.

…

 

[benedictus2]

The goal of election is “life.” It’s not by accident that the analogies chosen by the HS depict the natural man as being “dead in sins and trespasses,” and state the remedy for that as being “born again,” or being made a “new creation” (Eph 2:1-10, Col 2:13; Jn 3:3; 1 Pet 1:3, etc.)

If you’ve never been around the dead, you won’t appreciate the Spirit’s illustration.

Dead people can’t do anything, they don’t respond to anything—they’re dead

Sorry but your reply is so way off tangent to the post below that you are replying to.

benedictus2:

We always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.

If you can’t understand why I am saying this, then re-read the whole post.

To illustrate: It was like, I said “the sky is blue” and you said “I disagree, winter in America is cold”.

Que?

…

 

[benedictus2]

Assumes that God gives “the grace to believe” to everyone (cf Jn

6:26-65), clearly from that passage, He doesn’t give everyone the grace to believe.
That passage is not the entirety of Holy Scripture. There are heaps of passages that you have conveniently ignored. Agains, your doctrine of “SOME PARTS OF THE BIBLE ALONE”
…

 

[ncgolf]

Matt 22:2-14
"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding banquet, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other slaves, saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited: Look, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready; come to the wedding banquet.’ 5 But they made light of it and went away, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his slaves, mistreated them, and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore into the main streets, and invite everyone you find to the wedding banquet.’ 10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both good and bad; so the wedding hall was filled with guests.

This has many facets … another being who did the inviting …a King … in any era when you deny a request by the King you make a serious mistake in judgement. When an invitation is offered by the King the proper response is to affirm.

Notice also the King did not compel anyone to come to the banquet … he practically begged them to come and join him. He would have been within his right as King to compel all who were invited to join him but this King did not.

In the end everyone was at least offered an invitation … but how many actually heeded the invitation?

 

[benedictus2]

Postively, that would base God’s choice upon the merits of man’s actions—a position your church rejects.

Re-read my post again.

God is not choosing you because of your merit. Rather He has already chosen you when He created you, but whether you choose Him (and prove this choice by following His will) is a matter up to you.

It is you have consistently denied merit.

I am beginning to get the feeling that you are like one of those who, during a conversation covers their ears when the other person starts speaking, and then insist that the other person has said which he has not or has said something that is quite the opposite.

 

[benedictus2]

Once regenerated, man’s will is free not only to sin, but it’s now free not to sin (Rom 6).

But since in your belief, God has determined who will be saved at the beginning of time , what was this whole point of regeneration.

Since in your doctrine, everything is predetermine, then sinning or not sinning will not make an iota of difference to the destination of the eternal bus you will be forced to board.

The Heavenly Idol competition was already rigged at the start. Singing well or singing badly does not make a difference.

…

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Benedictus,
I do not know the teaching on predestination. Just from reading Is6: 9-13, Jn 12:40, Acts 28:26, Rm 11:8-20 it appears the elect are those who have the responsibility of teaching the world about God.
Since God is Love, then it would seem that everything written and passed down through Tradition must be interpreted through God’s Love.
How we speak or write about God either exhibits how we have grown in God’s Love or have not grown.
An example of God’s Love was recently told to me. It is in an earlier post. I was told about an atheistic mean alcoholic who is now in his mid to late 60’s. He died in April of '05. He was pronounce dead for 20 minutes. He has medical records to prove this. While dead he described being surrounded by a beautiful light and heard beautiful singing. He felt joy and love he had never experienced before. From this light appeared John Paul II.
JP II then approached him and gave him a blessing. At that point he states he came back to life. He is totally changed and loves “that Pope”.
He was later told that he died the same day as John Paul II.
What is God trying to tell us? It is not just a nice story.
I would be interested in hearing what Sandusky might have to say about this miracle.

The unfortunate thing is that Calvinist Theology is heavy on the Power of God and very light on His Love. What I have gleaned from Sandusky’s thread is a powerful but evil and manipulative god. So unlike the God in Isiah who cries: “Ephraim how can I part with you? Israel, how can I give you up?”

As to the miracle, I have never heard of that but I believe it. Would appreciate it if you could let me know where I can find this story as I love conversion stories.

Sadly, I doubt very much if Sandusky will have any comment on this because “it is not in the Bible”.

So they will never hear of the many miracles that God makes to woo us because I believe that these miracles happen to make us turn back to Him.

Incidentally, I looked at your public profile and would like to exend a warm if rather belated Welcome Back Home.

I am praying for a friend to do the same. Please include him in your prayers.

God Bless.

 

[sandusky]

benedictus2:

That you have been unable to refute with any logical/rational argument my conclusion that your idea of God is a god who creates human beings just for the pleasure or making them suffer” means that you agree with me that no other conclusion can be derived from your post.

It follows therefore that you agree with me that your belief is consistent with a god who is an evil, psychopathic despot for there is no other way to describe a god who creates human beings so He could torture them for all eternity.

All above conclusions are arrived at logically. If you disagree, show me where I err in my syllogism.

What syllogism?

benedictus2:

It was GOD’S CHOICE TO BECOME MAN, AND TO DIE FOR EVERYONE. You on the contrary, will not accept a God who humbled himself to the point of dying on the cross in order to WOO HIS ERRANT BRIDE because you are much too concerned with his power.

I accept Him; I’m not the one bowing down to Mary, and praying to dead people, and preaching a place called purgatory because His sacrifice isn’t enough—that would be you and your fellow Catholics.

benedictus2:

If you can’t understand why I am saying this, then re-read the whole post.

In fact, you’re not making much sense at all.

benedictus2:

I am beginning to get the feeling that you are like one of those who, during a conversation covers their ears when the other person starts speaking, and then insist that the other person has said which he has not or has said something that is quite the opposite.

I get the feeling with you that you’re slamming back 9 or 10 as the night goes on.

benedictus2:

But since in your belief, God has determined who will be saved at the beginning of time , what was this whole point of regeneration.

That’s the Catholic position, as well. Is that why you’re slamming them back? You never knew that was the Catholic position?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Originally Posted by sandusky
Assumes that God gives “the grace to believe” to everyone (cf Jn 6:26-65), clearly from that passage, He doesn’t give everyone the grace to believe.
QUOTE]

Here’s what my bible alone research tells me:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, **will draw all people to myself.**John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; **for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.**1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads **to justification and life for all. **Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned **all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.**Rom 11:32

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, **and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.**1 John 2:1-2

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away **the sin of the world!”**John 1:29

 

[sandusky]

CHESTERTONRULES:

Assumes that God gives “the grace to believe” to everyone (cf Jn 6:26-65), clearly from that passage, He doesn’t give everyone the grace to believe.
QUOTE]

Here’s what my bible alone research tells me:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, **will draw all people to myself.**John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; **for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.**1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads **to justification and life for all. **Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned **all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.**Rom 11:32

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, **and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.**1 John 2:1-2

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away **the sin of the world!”**John 1:29

Define the terms you’ve highlighted; (if you understand what that means.)

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Define the terms you’ve highlighted; (if you understand what that means.)

There is nothing hidden in the meaning of the words, you just don’t want to accept them.

Ask yourself why it is that you can’t accept scripture as written.

 

[Ronald_E]

The unfortunate thing is that Calvinist Theology is heavy on the Power of God and very light on His Love. What I have gleaned from Sandusky’s thread is a powerful but evil and manipulative god. So unlike the God in Isiah who cries: “Ephraim how can I part with you? Israel, how can I give you up?”

Hi Benedictus2, Thank you for your welcome home. I know I am home now and it is a totally different home than what I thought it was. I was asked to lead a Bible study about a month ago on the parables. In the introduction we were told that if we interpreted the parables in a human way then we interpret mistakenly and exhibit the extent to which we have grown or not grown in love.
However, this morning as I was reading Mark 12 I was drawn to a passage I had highlighted a couple of years ago. Sandusky referred to Hebrews 1 as his reason to not give attention to God’s miracle with the alcoholic atheist as a testament of God’s Love. His reason is that there are no new revelations since Jesus’ act of Love. I agree. He has given us everything we need to know and more importantly, to understand for the good of all humanity.
Now in Mark 12:26-27 Jesus states, not Paul, but Our Lord, “…‘I am the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob’ He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled.”

As to the miracle, I have never heard of that but I believe it. Would appreciate it if you could let me know where I can find this story as I love conversion stories.

I received this miracle through the daughter whose parents have had a long friendship with this man. This is not known generally as yet because I was told that he is quite shy at this time and is not sure what to do with this miracle. I gave the woman who related this to me permission to give him my contact info. This was last week. As yet there has been no contact. If you look through my posts you will see the miracle I was blessed to have experienced before my return about a woman I know who was cured of terminal liver cancer and how her hands began to bleed after she had reached a point of stating that she had nothing to live for. Her hands stopped bleeding Easter of '05 when I made my first Confession and Communion in 40 years. She had no way of knowing that I returned to our Catholic faith because I had not seen her since her miracle in June of '04. The next time I saw her was November of '05 when she began to cry after I told her of my return Home.

Sadly, I doubt very much if Sandusky will have any comment on this because “it is not in the Bible”.

I hope he does open his heart to this. This is God’s Love being revealed to all of us. This is no new revelation. This is the Light open to all. I pray that he does not harden his heart to this. I hardened my heart for 40 years.

So they will never hear of the many miracles that God makes to woo us because I believe that these miracles happen to make us turn back to Him.

Once again I hope that the debate stops long enough to see the miracle. Faith, hope and love. The greatest of these is Love. God is Love. We cannot know God through theology. We can only know God through Love. It seems that in theology if we do not interpret everything through Love of God, Love of neighbor and Love of self we are left with trying to prove we are right.

Incidentally, I looked at your public profile and would like to exend a warm if rather belated Welcome Back Home.

Thank you very much for your welcome. I do feel the warmth in your message.

I am praying for a friend to do the same. Please include him in your prayers.

God Bless.

God Bless You also. Sandusky, God Bless You. Well, I can see that He has because it is extremely obvious how much you love God.

 

[mikeledes]

IMO, that’s a quibble.

As I’ve tried in the past to get you to understand, parables generally deal with one point, and that point is generally stated at the end of the parable, and the end of this parable is in vv47 and 48 where the point is made: punishment in hell will vary according to the degree of knowledge of God’s will (hearing the gospel and embracing it, or hearing the gospel and rejecting it), and the willful disobedience to God’s will, and that ignorance of God’s will (never hearing the Gospel) does not excuse one from eternal punishment.

It’s a parable.

The point of the parable is readiness. That is clearly indictated by the verses immediately preceding the parable:

Luke 12:35-41

**35"Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.
36"Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.
37"Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
38"Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
39"But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
40"You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect."
41Peter said, “Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?” **

And the theme of readiness and alertness is continued in Jesus response to Peter’s question regarding the parable on readiness He just gave:

**42And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
43"Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
44"Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
45"But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. **

The highlighted parts clearly indicate that this passage is a continuation of the readiness theme established in verse 35. The parable disusses the end of that faithful and wise steward if he remains alert and faithfully carries out the duties assigned to him by his master and his fate if he does not. The other basic point is that those who have responsibility over others - such as the faithful steward who is given a position of authority by his master - will incur a stricter judgement

1. … From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more

Which is similar to James 3:1

1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

God Bless,
Michael