I was open to Orthodoxy but...

[WesleyF]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

 

[jwinch2]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15 and to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

I have come across quite a few Orthodox who I would describe as “proud and anti-west” per your description, particularly on Orthodox forums and on YouTube. Even some Orthodox priests have been like that. On this forum, there seems to be quite a few Orthodox Christians who state their views with love and charity without diluting their position in anyway.

In the real world, I have only had any dialogue with one Orthodox Christian and he was a wonderful man. We had some great discussion about the faith and life in general.

There is another thread going with an article linked claiming that many Orthodox define themselves too often by what they are not (e.g. Roman Catholic) rather than what they are. I have no way of knowing how true that is among Orthodox Christians in general, but I would be lying if I did not see some truth in that statement in the online discussions I have participated in.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

I’ve witnessed that attitude myself.
But the few times in which I’ve attended an Orthodox liturgy, I was met with much curiosity, the people shared their “blessed bread” with me, the priest was very kind and gracious.

 

[Harpazo]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

Sadly, you are mistaken. There is no hatred in Orthodoxy for Roman Catholics whatsoever. Individual Orthodox may have qualms with the RCC for varying degrees, but to dismiss all of Orthodoxy over some misunderstandings that you and/or they have is unfortunate. I have noticed that when RCs voice the concerns that you have, often times it is tantamount to thinking “Orthodox don’t recognize our Sacraments/agree with our teachings, that means they hate us” when that is simply not the case.

There are quite a few RCs on here who are very misinformed about Orthodox, but I wouldn’t say they hate me. They could be characterized in the exact fashion as you have characterized some Orthodox, but I don’t hate them, nor would I think they hate me (at least I hope they don’t). You must understand that the Orthodox and RCC have very different mindsets and views on different things pertaining to the Faith. Sometimes tensions get high because one side cannot concede that the other side has a differing view. We have all been guilty of that at one time or another, and it is not just an issue Orthodox have.

The best place to learn about Orthodoxy is not the internet; it is a useful resource, but there is no substitute for interaction at an Orthodox parish, worshiping with the faithful. Orthodox books are also a great tool. The internet can bring the worst out in people, regardless of religion.

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Andrewr

 

[WesleyF]

Sadly, you are mistaken. There is no hatred in Orthodoxy for Roman Catholics whatsoever.

That’s not what I said. I said that there is hatred for teachings, not for people. And in many cases I have seen hatred for Catholic church fathers, notably Augustine, referring to him as “pagan” and other interesting adjectives.

 

[Rawb]

That’s not what I said. I said that there is hatred for teachings, not for people. And in many cases I have seen hatred for Catholic church fathers, notably Augustine, referring to him as “pagan” and other interesting adjectives.

I’d be interested who you’re talking to - Bl Augustine is, well, a Blessed in Orthodoxy.

There ARE those who over-react to Catholic teachings. It comes from living in a place where people are more familiar with Catholicism, and on sites such as this where we are on the constant defense, we’ll of course sound, well, defensive.

It’s curious that you label some ECF’s “Catholic” and some not (presumably they’re Orthodox?) We wouldn’t see it that way; we just see all the Early Church Fathers and judge them against the Faith. Whether or not an ECF is held in high esteem or not is directly related to whether or not they taught Orthodoxy, not whether or not Catholic doctrine developed along their lines.

I think Andrew spoke well to this. I find often that Catholics (and even other Westerners) are offended when we say the Pope has no greater authority than any other Patriarch, or that he has no power over any other bishop. They seem to feel this is a slight against their church. This just isn’t so.

As others have said, I would encourage you to meet actual Orthodox people at an actual Orthodox parish.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother WesleyF,

That’s not what I said. I said that there is hatred for teachings, not for people. And in many cases I have seen hatred for Catholic church fathers, notably Augustine, referring to him as “pagan” and other interesting adjectives.

I support those who have pointed out that there are many beautiful, kind Orthodox people on this planet.

However, as a former anti-Catholic, Orthodox NOT in communion with Rome, I can testify to this very attitude of which you are concerned. There is often a deliberate attempt to misrepresent Catholic teachings (particularly Latin Catholic teachings). It was only by “going outside the box” that I was able to see Catholicism for what it actually was.

As I’ve always maintained:
(1) Orthodox do a disservice to themselves by attacking Catholicism with their distortions. If they stuck simply to supporting Orthodoxy, we’d be in a much better world (in terms of Catholic-Orthodox relations), and much closer to re-union.

(2) The beauty of Catholicism is its inherent Catholicity - able to seek out what actually unites the whole and thus unite the Church. Copts, Chaldeans, Latins, Armenians, Syriacs, Melkites, Ukranians, etc, etc. We have all been able to go beyond our parochialisms, our local Traditions, our local spiritualities, our local theologies, our local practices, beyond what makes us distinct, and find what it is that unites us as apostolic Christians - the FAITH.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

I think Andrew spoke well to this. I find often that Catholics (and even other Westerners) are offended when we say the Pope has no greater authority than any other Patriarch, or that he has no power over any other bishop. They seem to feel this is a slight against their church. This just isn’t so.

Oh, but it goes beyond that. Non-Catholics (not all, of course) like to misrepresent the papacy as a tyranny, a dictatorship. If we can get beyond such misrepresentations, then maybe we’ll have an easier go at coming together at the Table.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[guanophore]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

I think your experience may be biased. For one thing, Orthodox authors don’t really write much polemically or apologetically. It tends to be based on spiritual practices, and oriented toward members of the faith.

Most written material is anti-West because it is response to what they perceive as wrongs committed by the West. I agree, it is rather bitter.

However, there is no hatred in Orthodoxy toward the Fathers, especially up to the schism. I think you will also have a very different experience when you attend Divine Liturgy. Most Orthodox in the pews do not engage in any of this anti-western polemic that is the purview of theologians.

 

[mardukm]

I think your experience may be biased.

I agree his first statement is off. For example, there are probabaly an equal number of Orthodox apologists and Orthodox polemicists here on CAF, so the “never” portion should be taken with a grain of salt. Though, to be fair, he may not be as exposed to Orthodoxy as others here.

However, there is no hatred in Orthodoxy toward the Fathers, especially up to the schism.

Oh, I’ve definitely seen that outlook. Admittedly, that is just my own experience having been an anti-Catholic once myself, and hanging out with “that crowd.” And I’m sure WesleyF has his own experiences. It should not be generalized, however.

I think you will also have a very different experience when you attend Divine Liturgy. Most Orthodox in the pews do not engage in any of this anti-western polemic that is the purview of theologians.

Agreed.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cavaradossi]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

If you are frustrated by what seems to be the uncompromising nature of Orthodox Christians in terms of doctrine, it is because to compromise is to cost others the potential salvation of their souls. We must remember that this is the basis for anathemas and excommunications, they are always done with pastoral love, with the hope that the anathematized will recant. Similarly, when we, as Orthodox encounter, in all humility, teachings which we find to be heterodox, it is our duty, out of love to those who hold those beliefs, to explain why they are heterodox to us. This is what we, as Orthodox believe it means to speak the truth in love. If we come off as anti-West, it is only because we find the West to be in error on several points of theology. I too could say that many of my Roman Catholic friends (yes, I have many) are anti-Eastern because of how they cringe whenever I mention names like Photios and Gregory Palamas. Yet I doubt they cringe for hatred of the East; I believe that they cringe out of love, since they too believe that I have placed my faith in (people who are in their eyes) heretics and schismatics.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sounds like pious talk to me, can’t even agree on Matthew 16 with the EO. The entire first 300 years of the Catholic Church are ignored, the Apostolic Succession is ignored. Sola Scriptura is used to re-define what Jesus Christ said to Peter in Matthew 16.

Their Saints are somehow more relevant than the Catholics. Yet there is no investigation process by the EO…they just believe their Saints without evidence or confirmation and facts. Yet somehow the Catholic Saints who are confirmed with evidence and documentation by fact are view as insignificant.

Communion? Ha, I actually believe Christ will be back before communion happens.

Lets cut through the chase, this is were we need to start Right Here! …

Until we are on the same page with Scripture and the first 300-years of the Catholic Church there can be communion because there’s a distinct disagreement.

YOU ARE PETER[ROCK] AND UPON THIS ROCK[PETER] I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH!!!

How about we start this loving relationship right here. Here is where WE find the error in the EO. And did this schism NOT start with the Arianism of the EO? Lets not be so quick to talk Error here. Because already you off on the wrong foot with the horse before the cart.

Not only is the OP correct he hits a homerun with his observation.

Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s not what I said. I said that there is hatred for teachings, not for people.

Lets stay focused now…A Bump for the actual ISSUE…Matthew 16 PETER/ROCK. Apostolic Succession and the first 300 years of the CATHOLIC CHURCH? Got anything for us? Seems the disagreement starts HERE!

And once again WesleyF hits the nail on the head.

Gary

 

[Cavaradossi]

And did this schism NOT start with the Arianism of the EO?

What in the World do you mean by that?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

What in the World do you mean by that?

The Eastern idea of a real division between God’s essence and “energies” has been compared to all sorts of things by Western Christians, so that may be where that is coming from. Or he may be trying to draw some sort of a connection between earlier problems in the East and the current schism. Let GaryTaylor clarify what he means though. Certainly it’s not a kind connection to make, espeicially since if I’m not mistaken Arius is even more bitterly remembered in the East than in the West.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Lets stay focused now…A Bump for the actual ISSUE…Matthew 16 PETER/ROCK. Apostolic Succession and the first 300 years of the CATHOLIC CHURCH? Got anything for us? Seems the disagreement starts HERE!

And once again WesleyF hits the nail on the head.

Gary

Do you truly mean to say that there is no Apostolic Succession outside of Peter’s lineage? Do you hold the other Apostles with such irreverence? Surely, you cannot mean to say that within the first 300 years of the Church, the only valid Apostolic Succession came from Peter, and then after 300 AD, the Eastern Christians magically decided that the the other Apostles could be sources of Apostolic Succession as well. Then what of the missions of the other Apostles and their own martyrdom (excepting John, of course, who by Tradition was not martyred)? Do they count for nothing? Then you would mean to say that only Rome, the seat of Peter and his martyrdom possesses and passes on Apostolic Succession? That’s a really interesting version of Apostolicity that you confess, and not one that I knew that Catholics normally held (certainly, none of my Catholic friends have once told me that Peter is the only valid source of Apostolic Succession).

As the Rock, Peter is given a special position amongst the Apostles, but this does not make him the only source of Apostolic Succession. Let us not forget that all of the Apostles were gifted with the ability of passing on the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, which is the way that Apostolic Succession has been passed on from bishop to bishop through the generations dating all the way back to the Apostles.

Phillip.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Responding to the original post, I have seen something like the attitude the OP described among some Orthodox, and I’ve seen some Orthodox criticize the attitude within their own Church. I’ve also seen similar ugliness in the Catholic Church.

I would keep in mind that the Orthodox are conscious of being outnumbered by Catholics, and even more outnumbered by Catholics and Protestants put together, which many Eastern Christians are more likely to group together and set opposite the East than most Western Catholics would be. Then there is Western political and cultural dominance over the world, and the residue of the Cold War. These sorts of things make it almost inevitable that Eastern Christians would think and feel a little differently about the West than the West about the East.

We should be careful not to act as if prevalent moral faults, real or merely perceived, invalidate an entire Church. Catholics have their faults too. We are all sinners, and we should expect to find sin among members of any church. These sorts of moral accusations against one another only drive us farther apart and obscure the differences and commonalities that really matter.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Do you truly mean to say that there is no Apostolic Succession outside of Peter’s lineage? Do you hold the other Apostles with such irreverence? Surely, you cannot mean to say that within the first 300 years of the Church, the only valid Apostolic Succession came from Peter, and then after 300 AD, the Eastern Christians magically decided that the the other Apostles could be sources of Apostolic Succession as well. Then what of the missions of the other Apostles and their own martyrdom (excepting John, of course, who by Tradition was not martyred)? Do they count for nothing? Then you would mean to say that only Rome, the seat of Peter and his martyrdom possesses and passes on Apostolic Succession? That’s a really interesting version of Apostolicity that you confess, and not one that I knew that Catholics normally held (certainly, none of my Catholic friends have once told me that Peter is the only valid source of Apostolic Succession).

As the Rock, Peter is given a special position amongst the Apostles, but this does not make him the only source of Apostolic Succession. Let us not forget that all of the Apostles were gifted with the ability of passing on the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, which is the way that Apostolic Succession has been passed on from bishop to bishop through the generations dating all the way back to the Apostles.

Phillip.

We Catholics do not believe Peter is the only source of Apostolic Succession. Perhaps he meant Petrine succession, which is not something passed on through Holy Orders but through filling seat of Peter at Rome (and perhaps in a different and subsidiary way the Eastern Patriarchates)? Really I don’t know what he meant, but don’t take it to be the Catholic position.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m pointing out that errors exist both ways. Nonetheless my point is we need to begin with Scripture in belief? If we can’t agree on Scripture than to focus on any aspect inbetween the begining and where we stand today is futile.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Cavaradossi]

We should be careful not to act as if prevalent moral faults, real or merely perceived, invalidate an entire Church. Catholics have their faults too. We are all sinners, and we should expect to find sin among members of any church. These sorts of moral accusations against one another only drive us farther apart and obscure the differences and commonalities that really matter.

The bolded part speaks for itself. I have nothing of value that I could possibly add to such a well-worded statement.