I was open to Orthodoxy but...

[CompSciGuy]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

I see this very often, not to meantion “nit-pickyness” about doctrines, etc. I have tended to find that many orthodox seem to reject a doctrine for no other reason than because Catholics believe it. This is not true of all Orthodox; in fact, I have found that many of the Orthodox readers on this forum are very respectful and courteous, and don’t take the stance that “whatever Catholics believe is automatically wrong, because it is Catholic.” But yes I see this attitude very often among Orthodox. I think that no Christian group is perfect either. When I was converting to the Catholic faith and first started attending mass, I was a little put off because it seemed like a lot of the Catholics I would meet were overly-obsessed with learning about theology, criticizing every little aspect of the liturgy, etc. but had very little concern for outreach or ministry, which was something I was very used to in the Evangelical setting. It felt like a sort of culture of hyper-traditional intellectual elitism. I had to do a little searching to find other Catholics in my community who were more outreach-oriented and led community ministry (there are actually quite a few if you look for them). From my experience, this seems to be a common trend in Catholic culture. I don’t want to pin that on all Catholics though, nor do I mean to judge. I do acknowledge that I am speaking on behalf of my own experience, and that I haven’t been to every Catholic Church in the world, or even in the US. I also acknowledge that I have my own set of personal imperfections that I have to deal with.

 

[Lokabrenna]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

I’m neither Orthodox nor Catholic, but I understand how a community can, unfortunately, push people away rather than bring them together. There will always be people in any given community who might act…uncharitably…towards others, and I think these people do a disservice to their tradition whenever people who are considering converting are “turned off” by the attitudes of some within the community.

I would say that if you don’t feel that the community is very welcoming, then perhaps it isn’t for you, you know? It seems like you’ve found your path though, if your religious affiliation is any indication.

 

[tomarin]

We might want to think about how we come across to others.

 

[jtodisco]

I just want to say that I love and respect my Orthodox brothers and sisters.

Of all the different groups of Christians, they are the closest to us doctrinally speaking. Whenever I read articles or books written by an Orthodox author or hear an Orthodox Christian speak I always feel that I am in the presence of a close relative. True, I feel a certain affinity for all Christians (and all people in general) but the Orthodox hold a special place in my heart closer than the others. I long for the day when we will be reunified, even though I doubt I will be fortunate enough to see that happen.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I see this very often, not to meantion “nit-pickyness” about doctrines, etc. I have tended to find that many orthodox seem to reject a doctrine for no other reason than because Catholics believe it.

I will have to disagree with you slightly here. The Orthodox reject doctrines when we find that they are either a) incompatible with our understanding of salvation (in which case, it’s called a heresy) or b) inconsistent with the Holy Tradition. As an example, some of the major Catholic teachings and positions which we reject include the the Filioque, the Immaculate Conception, and Papal Infallibility. In the case of the first, the Filioque, it changes our understanding of the Trinity as was laid down in Nicaea, and expanded upon in Constantinople, and so is considered heresy by some because of its potential effects upon our understanding of salvation. Others may use the slightly nicer term of “theologoumenon” (meaning a theological opinion) to describe the Filioque, but either way, the implication is that neither a heresy or a theologoumenon has a place in one of the infallible and unalterable Creeds of the early Church. The Immaculate Conception is viewed as being heretical by most because of the implications it has for our understanding of original sin (and by extension, salvation). Papal infallibility falls into the second category, as it is inconsistent with our understanding of the Holy Tradition.

While it may appear as nit-picking, the Eastern Orthodox, as confessors of what we believe to be the truth, must be precise with which doctrines we find to be in error. What love is there in allowing others whom you believe to be in error to continue their unorthodox beliefs? If you sincerely believe that their misunderstandings could impair their salvation, is not the only acceptable solution to attempt to give them what you believe to be the truth, in love? This is the meaning of speaking the truth in love. It doesn’t imply always being 100% nice, and wearing nice, neat white shirts with black slacks while handing out your holy books (as the Mormons are inclined to do), it implies getting your hands dirty and risking offending others to bring them to an understanding of your truth. Just as I asked one of my closest friends once, “what sort of friend would I be if I were not to tell you when I disagree with you for fear of offending you,” so too must we be aware that we aren’t truly Christians if we allow our fear of offending others to paralyze our mission to be witnesses to the truth. So if sometimes the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics on this forum get riled up over some theological debate, we must realize that our deepest motivation is (or should be) our Christian love for one another—a genuine love and not some social standard of niceness. So please forgive those of us (on both sides) who from time to time become impassioned, we only mean to do it out of Christian love. If we only keep it to niceness for fear of offending each other, on both the level of the laymen and the clergy, then a reunification between our two churches will never become possible.

Phillip

 

[Contarini]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

Wesley,

The Orthodox certainly have a harsher view of Catholicism than Catholics do of them. But then, the same thing is true of Anglicans and Catholics. Does that mean that Anglicans are right and Catholics wrong? I think not. The question is whether the Orthodox view of Catholicism is correct, not whether it’s nice or polite. As you say, they aren’t hating people, just doctrines. So your original reference to speaking the truth in love makes no sense at all. We are never told to love false doctrines.

I actually don’t think the distinction is quite so clear-cut, as you can see in all the anti-Catholics who claim to “love the dear Catholic people” while reviling and misrepresenting Catholicism. I think that many Orthodox are uncharitable toward Catholics, but fundamentally I don’t think we can argue that they are less charitable than Catholics–it’s just that given their harsher view of Catholicism they are going to be more tempted into a lack of charity than Catholics are toward them. (And I find the triumphalist snootiness of many Catholics toward the Orthodox to be equally uncharitable, if less bristlingly aggressive.) At any rate, my point is simply that you have to discern first whether they are right rather than dismissing them because they are polemical.

I have gone back and forth on this. There have been a couple points in my life (one of them was about a year ago) where, in frustration with both Anglicanism and Catholicism, I’ve been highly disposed to accept the Orthodox polemic as correct. I am deeply bothered by the Filioque. But in the end, I can’t accept the Orthodox view of Catholicism (at least the polemical Orthodox view–there are more ecumenical Orthodox folks like Olivier Clement). I also can’t accept the polemical Catholic view of Protestantism, but I find it relatively more convincing, and ecumenical views are relatively stronger within Catholicism than within Orthodoxy.

So I’m not saying you are wrong to be put off by this polemic. Just be sure that you are put off because you think it’s actually wrong, and not just because it’s offensive to 21st-century ideas about tolerance and inter-church courtesy.

Edwin

 

[hazcompat]

for what its worth

i grew up in a multi cultural neighborhood at a time when parents spoke at least two languages. some ethnic males always appeared to be fighting amongst themselves. once i asked my friend “why are the always angry”.she said " they are brothers, thats just the way they talk". when i sense hatred i consider our culural differences and the importance of the subject( Our Fathers Will),

as Saint Seraphim of Sarov said "Why do we judge our neighbors? Because we are not trying to get to know ourselves. Someone busy trying to understand himself has no time to notice the shortcomings of others. Judge yourself — and you will stop judging others. Judge a poor deed, but do not judge the doer. It is necessary to consider yourself the most sinful of all, and to forgive your neighbor every poor deed. One must hate only the devil, who tempted him. It can happen that someone might appear to be doing something bad to us, but in reality, because of the doer’s good intentions, it is a good deed. Besides, the door of penitence is always open, and it is not known who will enter it sooner — you, “the judge,” or the one judged by you.

fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/seraphim_e.htm

peace

 

[Mickey]

as Saint Seraphim of Sarov said "Why do we judge our neighbors? Because we are not trying to get to know ourselves. Someone busy trying to understand himself has no time to notice the shortcomings of others. Judge yourself — and you will stop judging others. Judge a poor deed, but do not judge the doer. It is necessary to consider yourself the most sinful of all, and to forgive your neighbor every poor deed. One must hate only the devil, who tempted him. It can happen that someone might appear to be doing something bad to us, but in reality, because of the doer’s good intentions, it is a good deed. Besides, the door of penitence is always open, and it is not known who will enter it sooner — you, “the judge,” or the one judged by you.

I love St Seraphim!

 

[lax16]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

I have stated on another thread:

1. “bragging” that their lent is more strict than ours
2. anti-pope comments
3. feeling culturally and religously superior
4. never speaking in a way to explain differences just negative “jabs”
5. does not attend church every Sunday
6. anti-Semitic in comments - pro-Palestinian (very open about this while others around them strongly disagree)
7. very old world in the culture they were raised in and always brag about it
8. could care less about other people’s culture and religious perspective
9. never lets up - even after years of so-called friendship
10. no respect for Catholic anything
11. insisting that my children have icons in our home and give them as gifts for everything (which I do not mind, however if I gave the gift of a statue it would probably be not accepted)
12. doesn’t seem to be very knowledgeable about the bible

This has been my only experience with the Orthodox and to me it is very cultural and one would not fit in unless one is Lebanese, Armenian, Greek, etc.
Not for those of us from Italy and Ireland - we are the inferior outsiders.

This family definitely made us feel that we were wrong and mentioned it at every single function. We don’t live around them anymore, but I hear it still continues…

They may be the exception - but it is not about being accepting Christians…it is about proving they are right.

 

[Harpazo]

I have stated on another thread:

1. “bragging” that their lent is more strict than ours
2. anti-pope comments
3. feeling culturally and religously superior
4. never speaking in a way to explain differences just negative “jabs”
5. does not attend church every Sunday
6. anti-Semitic in comments - pro-Palestinian (very open about this while others around them strongly disagree)
7. very old world in the culture they were raised in and always brag about it
8. could care less about other people’s culture and religious perspective
9. never lets up - even after years of so-called friendship
10. no respect for Catholic anything
11. insisting that my children have icons in our home and give them as gifts for everything (which I do not mind, however if I gave the gift of a statue it would probably be not accepted)
12. doesn’t seem to be very knowledgeable about the bible

This has been my only experience with the Orthodox and to me it is very cultural and one would not fit in unless one is Lebanese, Armenian, Greek, etc.
Not for those of us from Italy and Ireland - we are the inferior outsiders.

This family definitely made us feel that we were wrong and mentioned it at every single function. We don’t live around them anymore, but I hear it still continues…

They may be the exception - but it is not about being accepting Christians…it is about proving they are right.

Your accusations are highly offensive and flat out untruthful. Take a look back at your post and see if you are doing exactly what you accuse us of. I am Italian and Irish and no one has denigrated me in Orthodoxy for being so. However, I have been denigrated here for being Orthodox. Let’s not be so quick to cast these inflammatory accusations that have very, very little basis in truth.

I’m sorry you have such a disdain for us.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[jam070406]

Your accusations are highly offensive and flat out untruthful. Take a look back at your post and see if you are doing exactly what you accuse us of. I am Italian and Irish and no one has denigrated me in Orthodoxy for being so. However, I have been denigrated here for being Orthodox. Let’s not be so quick to cast these inflammatory accusations that have very, very little basis in truth.

I’m sorry you have such a disdain for us.

In Christ,
Andrew

I believe he was speaking of personal family experience with actual people.

 

[Nicea325]

Dear brother WesleyF,

I support those who have pointed out that there are many beautiful, kind Orthodox people on this planet.

However, as a former anti-Catholic, Orthodox NOT in communion with Rome, I can testify to this very attitude of which you are concerned. There is often a deliberate attempt to misrepresent Catholic teachings (particularly Latin Catholic teachings). It was only by “going outside the box” that I was able to see Catholicism for what it actually was.

As I’ve always maintained:
(1) Orthodox do a disservice to themselves by attacking Catholicism with their distortions. If they stuck simply to supporting Orthodoxy, we’d be in a much better world (in terms of Catholic-Orthodox relations), and much closer to re-union.

(2) The beauty of Catholicism is its inherent Catholicity - able to seek out what actually unites the whole and thus unite the Church. Copts, Chaldeans, Latins, Armenians, Syriacs, Melkites, Ukranians, etc, etc. We have all been able to go beyond our parochialisms, our local Traditions, our local spiritualities, our local theologies, our local practices, beyond what makes us distinct, and find what it is that unites us as apostolic Christians - the FAITH.

Blessings,
Marduk

Beautifully said! :clapping:

 

[Harpazo]

I believe he was speaking of personal family experience with actual people.

We’re not people on here? I know that I’m quite alive. Those are very broad characterizations he posted. Are the Orthodox the only ones that can be uncharitable? I’m sure I could come up with a near identical list, but what would that prove?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[jam070406]

We’re not people on here? I know that I’m quite alive. Those are very broad characterizations he posted. Are the Orthodox the only ones that can be uncharitable? I’m sure I could come up with a near identical list, but what would that prove?

In Christ,
Andrew

Well, thank God you are not like that!
But I’m not sure he had you mind. I don’t wanna speak for him.

 

[dcointin]

You’re painting Orthodoxy with an awfully broad brush. I agree that many Orthodox can be polemical and critical of western theology, and this is a problem that I personally have seen many times, but to reject the faith on the basis of the sin of its member seems naive. I could easily point to problems within the Catholic Church as a reason to reject it as well. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not the righteous.

 

[Nicea325]

We’re not people on here? I know that I’m quite alive. Those are very broad characterizations he posted. Are the Orthodox the only ones that can be uncharitable? I’m sure I could come up with a near identical list, but what would that prove?

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree. This is the way I veiw it all. EVERY race,ethnicity,culture,etc,etc has it is beautiful people and its falt out rude disrespectful ones. To make the claim this group or that group are to culturally biased or rude is simply being just that-biased and prejudice. My grandfather was from Madrid Spain and to say all Catholics from Madrid are rude or to culturally biased is bogus.

I agree with you Andrew…peace

 

[lax16]

Your accusations are highly offensive and flat out untruthful. Take a look back at your post and see if you are doing exactly what you accuse us of. I am Italian and Irish and no one has denigrated me in Orthodoxy for being so. However, I have been denigrated here for being Orthodox. Let’s not be so quick to cast these inflammatory accusations that have very, very little basis in truth.

I’m sorry you have such a disdain for us.

In Christ,
Andrew

Harpazo - this list is exactly what I experienced from our long standing relationship with one family - as I stated.

I hesitated to post it. I knew someone would be angry. Truly this was the case with our five year “friendship”.

I hope my list is VERY UNUSUAL for the Orthodox!

Just as the OP was describing his experience, I am describing mine.

It is not meant to be hurtful. But this is the way it went down.

Hopefully, you accept Catholic artifacts as gifts and read the bible and try to explain your faith to others in a loving way. Certainly, here on CAF you are very charitable.

I am glad that as an Italian/Irish person you have been welcomed into your church community.
Which one may I ask?

There is no hatred - but I struggled with this “friendship”. It was very hurtful. And I know of another person who continues to bear the brunt of the anti-Catholic comments but must continue the relationship for business reasons.

Like I said, I pray this family is the exception, not the rule. But the OP has had a negative experience as well.

It is very possible that Orthodox feel this way about Catholics. But, honestly, I don’t know a Catholic who has even the slightest idea why the East and West split. They couldn’t argue it if they tried. Myself included. But my “friend” was loaded with ammo - and she used it.

 

[lax16]

You’re painting Orthodoxy with an awfully broad brush. I agree that many Orthodox can be polemical and critical of western theology, and this is a problem that I personally have seen many times, but to reject the faith on the basis of the sin of its member seems naive. I could easily point to problems within the Catholic Church as a reason to reject it as well. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not the righteous.

If you are referring to me - I am not rejecting the Orthodox faith!

I know very little but was mistreated for the reason of being Catholic.

I want to learn more and know that we are all brothers in sisters in Christ!

 

[tomarin]

Like I said, I pray this family is the exception, not the rule. But the OP has had a negative experience as well.

One family is an awfully small sample size.

 

[lax16]

ATTENTION ALL:

I truly apologize if my post came off as offensive.

I was airing some past hurts and I shouldn’t have…please know that I am not generalizing and am looking forward to learning more about our similarities and our differences.

I don’t want to be a roadblock to the discussion.

I have learned a lot and really appreciate the dialogue.

And I always appreciate reminders to be charitable!

lax16