I was open to Orthodoxy but...

[lax16]

One family is an awfully small sample size.

I agree. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[stephe1987]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

They are proud because they had many bishops during the East-West schism and they believe they are in the right. Theologically, they are very similar to Catholics, and are closer to Catholicism than most Protestant denominations.

But they forget something important: numbers don’t matter. In the Early Church at one point up to 70% of bishops were teaching heresy. Those who stayed in Communion with the Bishop of Rome did not fall into heresy, and the other bishops eventually followed suit and came back into communion with Rome.

What matters is whether or not you are following God’s Church. But since their teachings aren’t that different from Catholics (mostly cultural differences), the Catholic Church sees both Orthodoxy and Catholicism and left and right lungs of the Church/body of Christ/etc.

I also think they have good reason to be proud. They managed to preserve teachings well over the centuries, and they (unlike protestants) maintained apostolic succession and valid holy orders. They do not let modern (New Age, political correctness movement) stuff influence them into heresy.

 

[Volodymyr]

ALWAYS/NEVER

I think these are words that should rarely be used to describe groups of people. There are millions of Orthodox people in the world. Such statements are usually (but not always) motivated by bias or attraction. I am certain that I would be wrong if I told you that Catholic priests are always kind of men led to sexual related involvement with children. But this is opinion of some. I would be wrong to say Catholics never interested to Christ, but only to Bishop of rome. But this is opinion of some. Mr Wesley, this is your opinion of Orthodox people. But why do you feel you must put in writing remarks about hundreds of millions of other people that you do not know - to say we never this and we always some other. This is foolishness and bigotry!

 

[WesleyF]

ALWAYS/NEVER

I think these are words that should rarely be used to describe groups of people. There are millions of Orthodox people in the world. Such statements are usually (but not always) motivated by bias or attraction. I am certain that I would be wrong if I told you that Catholic priests are always kind of men led to sexual related involvement with children. But this is opinion of some. I would be wrong to say Catholics never interested to Christ, but only to Bishop of rome. But this is opinion of some. Mr Wesley, this is your opinion of Orthodox people. But why do you feel you must put in writing remarks about hundreds of millions of other people that you do not know - to say we never this and we always some other. This is foolishness and bigotry!

I apologize if this sounds like bigotry, but I was specifically referring to the people I myself have encountered, not to all of the Orthodox. But the sample of people I encountered gave me the impression that majority must indeed be this way. Maybe I have been unlucky enough to encounter only the bad types amongst the Orthodox, just with a very few exceptions which are now coming to my memory, so I apologize for the “never” part. When I wrote that I had just come afresh from reading another such hate filled article and so my emotional outburst.

To remedy that I am going to visit a local orthodox church over here, as some have suggested, so that I get the taste of the good as well.

 

[hazcompat]

I love St Seraphim!

me too

peace

 

[ciero]

I’m pointing out that errors exist both ways. Nonetheless my point is we need to begin with Scripture in belief? If we can’t agree on Scripture than to focus on any aspect inbetween the begining and where we stand today is futile.

God Bless, Gary

Spoken like a true PROTESTANT!

We need to focus on the first 1000years of the church when we were ONE!

 

[ciero]

I apologize if this sounds like bigotry, but I was specifically referring to the people I myself have encountered, not to all of the Orthodox. But the sample of people I encountered gave me the impression that majority must indeed be this way. Maybe I have been unlucky enough to encounter only the bad types amongst the Orthodox, just with a very few exceptions which are now coming to my memory, so I apologize for the “never” part. When I wrote that I had just come afresh from reading another such hate filled article and so my emotional outburst.

To remedy that I am going to visit a local orthodox church over here, as some have suggested, so that I get the taste of the good as well.

May I ask if the Orthodox you have met are converts to Orthodoxy? In my experience converts either former protestants or former catholics bring their anti catholic bigotry with them into Orthodoxy. I have never met a cradle Orthodox who was like this.

 

[Rawb]

May I ask if the Orthodox you have met are converts to Orthodoxy? In my experience converts either former protestants or former catholics bring their anti catholic bigotry with them into Orthodoxy. I have never met a cradle Orthodox who was like this.

Gee thanks, ciero…

 

[WesleyF]

May I ask if the Orthodox you have met are converts to Orthodoxy? In my experience converts either former protestants or former catholics bring their anti catholic bigotry with them into Orthodoxy. I have never met a cradle Orthodox who was like this.

I’m not sure of the background of the people whose articles I had read. The articles pissed me off the most. Most of the people I met (i.e. in online forums other than CAF) were cradle orthodox, one was a former Protestant (he was extreme). So you might be right, converts might be more anti.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m not sure of the background of the people whose articles I had read. The articles pissed me off the most. Most of the people I met (i.e. in online forums other than CAF) were cradle orthodox, one was a former Protestant (he was extreme). So you might be right, converts might be more anti.

I think this is common among converts of all types.

 

[jmcrae]

… I never heard them speak the truth in** love** (Eph 4:15). And by “never” I mean never. This always turned me off from Orthodoxy, because I thought to myself, “I do not want to be like these people.”

They always came across to me as proud and anti-West. It can’t be just mere coincidence that all the Orthodox articles I have come across are extremely critical of Catholic teachings even when there was no need to point out those things. There seemed to be an intrinsic hatred of Catholic teachings and even church fathers.

This thread is just a request to all the Orthodox here to follow Eph 4:15. I also want to see if other Catholics here share the same sentiments.

My only issue with Orthodoxy is that it is nationalistic, rather than universalist, as the Catholic Church is. Jesus said, go out to the nations - He never intended for there to be national churches under separate hierarchies.

That’s the tipping point for me, when it comes to deciding between Catholic and Orthodox.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

My only issue with Orthodoxy is that it is nationalistic, rather than universalist, as the Catholic Church is. Jesus said, go out to the nations - He never intended for there to be national churches under separate hierarchies.

That’s the tipping point for me, when it comes to deciding between Catholic and Orthodox.

Really? I like that aspect about Orthodoxy. That it can be a Church for all people of all nations, and adopt the characteristics of those nations.

I see the Catholic Church in the same way too. In Italy there will be a distinctly Italian feel as opposed to the Church in Ireland or in America.

Although the fact that the Catholic Church uses Latin is a major win .

 

[Cavaradossi]

My only issue with Orthodoxy is that it is nationalistic, rather than universalist, as the Catholic Church is. Jesus said, go out to the nations - He never intended for there to be national churches under separate hierarchies.

That’s the tipping point for me, when it comes to deciding between Catholic and Orthodox.

Yes, and this is why the “nationalistic” Orthodox were the first to translate liturgies into the common tongue of the peoples whom they were trying to convert.

Edit: Clearly their desire to convert all nations and set up local autocephalous churches free to govern themselves however they best see fit is contrary to true spirit of Catholicity.

 

[Rawb]

My only issue with Orthodoxy is that it is nationalistic, rather than universalist, as the Catholic Church is. Jesus said, go out to the nations - He never intended for there to be national churches under separate hierarchies.

That’s the tipping point for me, when it comes to deciding between Catholic and Orthodox.

Ethnicism is a problem in both churches. The Orthodox Church is One. It would be more analagus to describe the different Greek, Bulgarian, Russian, Serbian, etc. parishes as like the different Polish, Italian, Mexican, Irish parishes that Catholicism had (and still has in some areas). Our different parishes are not like the “rites” of Catholicism - I attend a Serbian Orthodox parish, but I am not Serbian. If I went to the Greek parish I wouldn’t suddenly become “Greek” and there’s no way for me to “canonically transfer” as there is in Catholicism.

Catholicism too has separate hierarchies. You have your Eastern hierarchs and Western hierarchs, divided by nationalism.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Ethnicism is a problem in both churches. The Orthodox Church is One. It would be more analagus to describe the different Greek, Bulgarian, Russian, Serbian, etc. parishes as like the different Polish, Italian, Mexican, Irish parishes that Catholicism had (and still has in some areas). Our different parishes are not like the “rites” of Catholicism - I attend a Serbian Orthodox parish, but I am not Serbian. If I went to the Greek parish I wouldn’t suddenly become “Greek” and there’s no way for me to “canonically transfer” as there is in Catholicism.

Catholicism too has separate hierarchies. You have your Eastern hierarchs and Western hierarchs, divided by nationalism.

You know, personally, I don’t see a problem with this differentiation, and I am neither Roman Catholic nor Orthodox.

I find it beautiful that the Church can adapt in terms of the culture that it is in. Of course, I’m not referring to principles of faith - but I like the fact that as an Italian, my church can have an Italian feel to it. It makes the Church more part of the culture, generally.

My friend from work is Greek. Every year at her Orthodox church there is a Greek festival. What a better way to show people how your faith works? How your people have been held strong by the faith which can embolden a nation?

Think - if the Orthodox Church wasn’t so embedded into Greek consciousness, would the Greeks have been able to survive Ottoman Islamicization? Probably not.

Of course, on the flip side, it shouldn’t be used to deny or reject people who want to enter the faith, but I’m just slipping in an observation.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, and this is why the “nationalistic” Orthodox were the first to translate liturgies into the common tongue of the peoples whom they were trying to convert.

I doubt that - St. Jerome was translating into Latin because Latin was the common language of the people, six centuries before the schism.

Prior to that, liturgies were certainly being conducted in the languages that were known to the people.

St. Bede was translating everything into English in the 700s AD. (He was also the person who originally standardized the written form of the English language, in order to complete this work.)

 

[jmcrae]

Ethnicism is a problem in both churches. The Orthodox Church is One. It would be more analagus to describe the different Greek, Bulgarian, Russian, Serbian, etc. parishes as like the different Polish, Italian, Mexican, Irish parishes that Catholicism had (and still has in some areas). Our different parishes are not like the “rites” of Catholicism - I attend a Serbian Orthodox parish, but I am not Serbian. If I went to the Greek parish I wouldn’t suddenly become “Greek” and there’s no way for me to “canonically transfer” as there is in Catholicism.

You’d have to actually convert to it, wouldn’t you? If you wanted to participate in parish life.

Catholicism too has separate hierarchies. You have your Eastern hierarchs and Western hierarchs, divided by nationalism.

We are all still under one Pope and one law, though. And there is no need to convert, or even canonically transfer, before being able to participate in parish life.

 

[Rawb]

You know, personally, I don’t see a problem with this differentiation, and I am neither Roman Catholic nor Orthodox.

I find it beautiful that the Church can adapt in terms of the culture that it is in. Of course, I’m not referring to principles of faith - but I like the fact that as an Italian, my church can have an Italian feel to it. It makes the Church more part of the culture, generally.

My friend from work is Greek. Every year at her Orthodox church there is a Greek festival. What a better way to show people how your faith works? How your people have been held strong by the faith which can embolden a nation?

Think - if the Orthodox Church wasn’t so embedded into Greek consciousness, would the Greeks have been able to survive Ottoman Islamicization? Probably not.

Of course, on the flip side, it shouldn’t be used to deny or reject people who want to enter the faith, but I’m just slipping in an observation.

I don’t particularly see much of an issue with it either. The only issue I have with it is if it stands in the way of the formation of the American Orthodox Chruch (which will be a reality, and beautifuly comprised of a mixture of all those jurisdictions which are now evangelizing our country) or if a parish cares more about the “Greek” or “Serbian” or whatever in their name than they do about the “Orthodox Christian” part.

I just mean it’s not something to pretend is only an issue in Orthodoxy.

 

[Rawb]

You’d have to actually convert to it, wouldn’t you? If you wanted to participate in parish life.

I don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean I would have to “convert” to “Greek” Orthodoxy? No, there is only Orthodoxy.

In fact, a woman who was a member of an OCA parish came to our Serbian Parish several years ago and is attending the Greek Parish this summer (for a variety of reasons). All she had to do was show up and let the priest know you are Orthodox. She’s admitted to Communion immediately.

 

[Cavaradossi]

You’d have to actually convert to it, wouldn’t you? If you wanted to participate in parish life.

There is no need to convert from church to church in Orthodoxy. Greeks, Russians, Serbs, Georgians, etc. can all receive communion from other national churches because all of the national churches within Eastern Orthodoxy are in Full Communion with one another; we are all united by one faith.