I went to my first TLM ... did not go well

[James0235]

Hey, Norseman, thanks. I was apparently raised from infancy by unicorns!

And not 20 miles from the famously liberal city of San Francisco! (And even there one can find a Latin OF.)

I think “rare as unicorns in the back yard” is a major exaggeration. You’re unlikely to find a Latin OF if you live in a rural area, but if you’re near a sizeable city, it’s not that unusual.

Not much of an exaggeration at all. You are basing your belief that a Latin OF is readily available solely on your own experiences. But, some pretty sizable cities and nearly half of the States have no such Mass available.

According to the Latin Liturgy Association there is not a Latin OF Mass available in the 5th larest city in the US (Phoenix), the 8th largest (San Diego), 12th largest (Jacksonville, Florida), or the 15th largest (Columbus).

The Latin Liturgy Association is also not aware of any OF Latin Masses in 20 states:

Alaska, Arkansas, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Mississippi, Montana, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, West Virginaia, and Wyoming.

Thus I can affirm that if you live in/near Seattle, WA; Oakland or SF, CA, Santa Paula, CA, Washington, DC, Chicago, IL, London, UK, or Oxford, UK (and don’t forget Vatican City ) you can find a Latin OF. And these are merely the places I’ve lived in/visited.

In fact, Columbus is the first place I’ve hear of where the Latin OF is definitively not available.

Again, these are exceptions. Most dioceses in the US do not offer a Latin OF Mass. Most people do not have any access to such a Mass.

James

 

[malphono]

Probably a matter of control. The priest didn’t have (or even seek) their “approval” (not that he needed it) and that bugged them. Without their “approval” they likely would complain about almost anything.

Yes, I’m sure they want control, but even that only on their own terms and according to their own agenda.

I know some of those women, and it’s unlikely that it would have made any difference if their counsel had been sought. The very thought of the EF makes them shudder. The thought of ad orientem makes them shudder. The thought of Latin makes them shudder. There’s no doubt in my mind that they would have complained equally if the service had been a “reform of the reform” OF in Latin.

OTOH, it’s not very likely that they would have objected, (whether or not they had been asked to give their approval), if the service in question had been some sort of “ad lib” variation of the OF.

Torroidial:

This “technicality” thing sounds fishy unless it had to do with insurance or something along those lines, or if the priest had a questionable background when it came to the liturgy. I don’t know of too many chanceries in the USA that would shut-down a successful Mass where the opportunity cost is essentially zero.

No, the “technicality” has nothing to do with the priest. His credentials are impeccable, and he is highly regarded in liturgical and academic circles. Of course the “technicality” may have had something to do with insurance, but that doesn’t quite fit either: parts of the building are hired out (sometimes gratis) and used on non-school days by various groups for social events. Whatever the basis, though, it would never have been invoked had those women not made a formal complaint.

What I can say, however, is that the chancery seems to be one of those that is what I call “obstructionist” when it comes to EF in general. Interesting that they (bishop and/or chancery) generally seem not to interfere with the EF (or the Latin OF, for that matter) when done on a parish level, but it seems to be a different story when it comes to diocesan institutions. Here’s another example: shortly after the motu proprio was released, a substantial group of people innocently approached the rector of the cathedral about offering the EF there. He categorically refused, saying something to the effect of: “the EF will never be done in this cathedral while I’m rector.” The folks appealed to the bishop. The Vicar General responded by supporting the rector.

 

[ASD]

How ridiculous is this.

The way Catholics worshiped for generations was “ridiculous?” What an odd view of Catholic history.

[This reminds me of Lena Lamont in *Singing in the Rain: First she says her old-fashioned costume is dopey; then somebody tells her that everybody used to wear it. Lena says: “Then everybody was dopes.” ]

At Mass, we pray with the priest to God, but we pray with the priest as a community. And it’s “we”, not just the priest.

Anyone familiar with TLM and NO knows that same is true for both OF and EF. The difference is that OF congregations say their assigned prayers only, like altar boys.

At EF most people “pray the Mass,” saying all the prayers. Surely you don’t think people have to be heard in order to pray? [Yea, I will refrain from using the r word about that. ]

You talk as if there need be no laity present at all, just the priest offering prayers for everyone else,

Quite indisputably correct. To claim otherwise would be ridi… Oh, never mind.

as if the priest constituted the whole Church. He does not.

Totally [fill in the blank] non sequitur.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[DaveBj]

I understand your point but I don’t agree with what you are saying…the TLM had been around for hundreds of years…the NO for 45 years. And I’m not pushing the TLM…its just a fact…

I would just about guarantee you, no I will guarantee you, that the Ordinary Form is not the way it was in the early Church either

Neither was the EF/TLM. The earliest Masses were in Aramaic; later among the Gentiles they were most likely in Greek. In it day, the Latin Mass was as much an innovation as was the NO/OF Mass 45 years ago.

And no the principle is nowhere near the same. Speaking in tongues cannot be compared in any way to the Priest praying in the earthly official language of the Church.

I said that in my post. But my point stands–if it was inadvisable to “pray in tongues” without an interpreter, because the other congregants should be able to understand what is being said, it is also inadvisable for the presider to pray in such a way that his words are inaudible or incomprehensible. I’m not saying that praying in Latin is wrong, but I am saying that the prayers should be heard.

DaveBj

 

[7_Sorrows]

Hi all. This post does not intend to make any judgment on the Holy Mass. I was born in the late 70s and had never gone to a TLM until last Sunday. I was very excited about it after having had a great confession the prior day, and was looking forward to learn about the Mass that our saints enjoy in the last centuries. Kind of a treat for Christmas!

So I woke up very early for Mass, and went ready for such a great experience. However, I must say that I felt totally out of place during the EF Mass, almost like an alien and I don’t know why. I tried to follow the guide with translations, but usually got lost. I could not hear a word of what the Priest was saying, there were no songs, people were reverent but kind of cold, I don’t know … it was weird territory. So weird that I was not able to stay until the end, I felt like I had to leave and actually I left while people where waiting for Communion. I went to my usual OF Mass the same day and took Communion, and felt so relieved, but at the same time very sad that I could not appreciate the beauty of the EF Mass.

I am so glad that I was born during the OF times and I am able to understand, follow, and participate in our Holy Mass. Of course, I get a bit angry with the noise, the announcements, and sometimes lack of reverence to Our Lord, but still it’s such a wonderful Rite, the one that brought God to my life, and I feel very proud of it. I don’t know if I will ever go to another EF Mass, but now I am sure that the Holy Spirit did brought the NO Mass to people like myself, devout Catholics of the 20-21st century that want to pray to God in our own language.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

you describe how i also felt after i went to my first TLM. i think it is something you need to attend more than once and have to have a deep appreciation or belief in the TLM. it seems like in the 1960’s, everything had to be adjusted to save time - from frozen foods to fast food to the new form of mass. in that adjustment to living in a busier world, other things had to be sacrificed. the TLM is a beautiful mass and represents a different era of the roman catholic church i think. just like our country was different pre-1960’s culturally and socially, so was the catholic church. there are pros and cons to the changes made in vatican II.

 

[ASD]

In its day, the Latin Mass was as much an innovation as was the NO/OF Mass 45 years ago.

I would be interested to know where you read that. I have read pretty much the opposite, that the EF grew or changed “organically.”

If you can point us to some authoritative histories that describe “innovations” (as opposed to organic changes) in EF, I would be interested to read them.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[palmas85]

Neither was the EF/TLM. The earliest Masses were in Aramaic; later among the Gentiles they were most likely in Greek. In it day, the Latin Mass was as much an innovation as was the NO/OF Mass 45 years ago.

I said that in my post. But my point stands–if it was inadvisable to “pray in tongues” without an interpreter, because the other congregants should be able to understand what is being said, it is also inadvisable for the presider to pray in such a way that his words are inaudible or incomprehensible. I’m not saying that praying in Latin is wrong, but I am saying that the prayers should be heard.

DaveBj

Why? They are not directed to you, they are directed to God. And in any event you should be praying them as well. If you pray the Mass as intended and you know the words, and you should since they are right there in front of you, why do you need to hear the Priest say them?

As far as praying in tongues as you put it, if I am not mistaken, those so speaking were prophesysizing and the meaning of the statements needed to be ascertained to see if they were true prophetic utterances from the Holy Spirit or not. With the Priest we know what the prayers are and we know what he is saying unless of course you are going to pull up some of Martin Luthers statements. You know along the lines of

Bread thou art and bread thou shall remain etc.

Nope the comparison falls flat on its face because there is no relation between the two.

 

[DaveBj]

Why? They are not directed to you, they are directed to God. And in any event you should be praying them as well. If you pray the Mass as intended and you know the words, and you should since they are right there in front of you, why do you need to hear the Priest say them?

As far as praying in tongues as you put it, if I am not mistaken, those so speaking were prophesysizing and the meaning of the statements needed to be ascertained to see if they were true prophetic utterances from the Holy Spirit or not. With the Priest we know what the prayers are and we know what he is saying unless of course you are going to pull up some of Martin Luthers statements. You know along the lines of

Bread thou art and bread thou shall remain etc.

Nope the comparison falls flat on its face because there is no relation between the two.

That is exactly the point I logged back on to bring up. The prayers of the celebrant need to be audible so that the people of God can know that he is actually celebrating Mass and not reciting “Jabberwocky.”

And you say I should be praying the Mass with him. Great, I agree. But how can I pray with him if I can’t hear what he is praying?

What is so hard to understand about this? Is there something between my computer and yours that is garbling the message? The people of God have a right to hear what their priest is praying.

DaveBj

 

[DaveBj]

I would be interested to know where you read that. I have read pretty much the opposite, that the EF grew or changed “organically.”

If you can point us to some authoritative histories that describe “innovations” (as opposed to organic changes) in EF, I would be interested to read them.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

I would imagine the jump from Aramaic and Greek to Latin was pretty innovative at the time.

Soon when I have some time, I’m going to check out your link. I’m always interested in increasing my Latin skills, especially where the Mass is concerned.

DaveBj

 

[ac_claire]

That is exactly the point I logged back on to bring up. The prayers of the celebrant need to be audible so that the people of God can know that he is actually celebrating Mass and not reciting “Jabberwocky.”

And you say I should be praying the Mass with him. Great, I agree. But how can I pray with him if I can’t hear what he is praying?

What is so hard to understand about this? Is there something between my computer and yours that is garbling the message? The people of God have a right to hear what their priest is praying.

Where do you get this idea, Dave? If you have a missal you can follow along by the actions if not the words the priest is saying. Sure, I’d rather be able to hear Father than not hear him, but our rights have nothing to do with it. It’s not your job or mine to police the Mass to make sure the prayers are correct.

Hearing what the priest is saying has nothing to do with what is taking place on the altar.

 

[Rabbititus]

That the mass was a let down isn’t your fault, but it isn’t the TLM’s fault either. IMO, the OF is no more suited to 20-21st Century people than the EF is. I doubt people today would have any trouble with the EF had they grown up with it and had it remained the only Roman Rite. It’s alien simply because it isn’t the form of mass we grew up with. One of the saddest things about the reform of the mass was that they changed it to the point that our own traditions are foreign to us now.

I would recommend you attend a few more. I especially recommend that you attend a High Mass, or try to find a dialogue mass. Those have singing, and the priest chants many of the prayers out loud. Bear in mind that OF isn’t readily understood either to those who are unfamiliar with liturgical worship (a non-Catholic friend attended my confirmation, a contemporary style OF, and she later told me she had no clue what was going on and how strange/uncomfortable it was). This is a “new” type of mass for most people, so it takes time for it to feel natural. I’ve read accounts of people who left the church in the 40’s and 50’s (prior to the liturgical changes) and how they had to get used to the new mass upon returning.

IMO, you deserve praise for giving it a go and for wanting to give it another shot.

Merry Christmas!

 

[palmas85]

That is exactly the point I logged back on to bring up. The prayers of the celebrant need to be audible so that the people of God can know that he is actually celebrating Mass and not reciting “Jabberwocky.”

And you say I should be praying the Mass with him. Great, I agree. But how can I pray with him if I can’t hear what he is praying?

What is so hard to understand about this? Is there something between my computer and yours that is garbling the message? The people of God have a right to hear what their priest is praying.

DaveBj

You don’t need to hear the Priest pray in order for you to pray the same prayers that he does. It doesn’t have to be done in precise lock step in order to be valid. You may like it that way buit it is not a requirement, I somehow doubt that you are incapable of praying unless you can hear someone else doing so.
If it is the case though, then you need to work on that.

As far as having a right to hear what the Priest is saying where did you get that idea from?

And yes, I see now that you have bought completely into Martin Luthers old argument about not being able to trust the Priest to say the prayers correctly and that is truly sad…

 

[ASD]

I would imagine the jump from Aramaic and Greek to Latin was pretty innovative at the time.

Fair enough. I haven’t read much about how that transition occurred.

Also, the change from 1962 missal to 1970 missal involved much more than change in language.

However, I think I might have over-reacted to the word “innovation.” Over the years people have tried to argue that NO emerged from a council in much the same way the so-called “Tridentine” Mass emerged from council of Trent. That is not an accurate picture at all.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[Lainey63]

I believe that during the time of Christ all of the languages…Arameic, Greek & Latin were used…so no it was not such a leap

 

[Sarabande]

… Bear in mind that OF isn’t readily understood either to those who are unfamiliar with liturgical worship (a non-Catholic friend attended my confirmation, a contemporary style OF, and she later told me she had no clue what was going on and how strange/uncomfortable it was). This is a “new” type of mass for most people, so it takes time for it to feel natural. I’ve read accounts of people who left the church in the 40’s and 50’s (prior to the liturgical changes) and how they had to get used to the new mass upon returning…

You raise a good point with that. I have a number of friends and people I know who are not Catholic and when some of them experience a Catholic mass whether on a regular Sunday or at a nuptial mass, many find it very strange and weird ---- very foreign. What some expressed their distaste for, mainly because they don’t understand it, is how everyone in the OF masses do the prayers and responses together at the same time. They at first think it sounds like we’re in a cult or like robots.

 

[m134e5]

Hi all. This post does not intend to make any judgment on the Holy Mass. I was born in the late 70s and had never gone to a TLM until last Sunday. I was very excited about it after having had a great confession the prior day, and was looking forward to learn about the Mass that our saints enjoy in the last centuries. Kind of a treat for Christmas!

So I woke up very early for Mass, and went ready for such a great experience. However, I must say that I felt totally out of place during the EF Mass, almost like an alien and I don’t know why. I tried to follow the guide with translations, but usually got lost. I could not hear a word of what the Priest was saying, there were no songs, people were reverent but kind of cold, I don’t know … it was weird territory. So weird that I was not able to stay until the end, I felt like I had to leave and actually I left while people where waiting for Communion. I went to my usual OF Mass the same day and took Communion, and felt so relieved, but at the same time very sad that I could not appreciate the beauty of the EF Mass.

I am so glad that I was born during the OF times and I am able to understand, follow, and participate in our Holy Mass. Of course, I get a bit angry with the noise, the announcements, and sometimes lack of reverence to Our Lord, but still it’s such a wonderful Rite, the one that brought God to my life, and I feel very proud of it. I don’t know if I will ever go to another EF Mass, but now I am sure that the Holy Spirit did brought the NO Mass to people like myself, devout Catholics of the 20-21st century that want to pray to God in our own language.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

By the way you describe your experience, it sounds like you went to a Low Mass. The Low Mass is nice when you want to meditate through the entire Mass, but don’t necessarily need to follow along with everything (since much of the prayers are said softly by the priest and server alone). At High Mass, there are more parts sung by the choir (and perhaps the congregation too, if it is the custom of that community), and that really helps. Whenever someone tells me they want to go to a Tridentine Mass, I always recommend they go to a High Mass first.

 

[Torroidial]

.
No, the “technicality” has nothing to do with the priest. His credentials are impeccable, and he is highly regarded in liturgical and academic circles. Of course the “technicality” may have had something to do with insurance, but that doesn’t quite fit either: parts of the building are hired out (sometimes gratis) and used on non-school days by various groups for social events. Whatever the basis, though, it would never have been invoked had those women not made a formal complaint.

What I can say, however, is that the chancery seems to be one of those that is what I call “obstructionist” when it comes to EF in general. Interesting that they (bishop and/or chancery) generally seem not to interfere with the EF (or the Latin OF, for that matter) when done on a parish level, but it seems to be a different story when it comes to diocesan institutions.

This still makes no sense to me. The priest is the principal of the school so he has the authority to be on campus. Check. He is obviously allowed to celebrate the Mass within that diocese. Check. It doesn’t sound as though he is displacing anyone on Sunday by celebrating the EF Mass. Check.

This is not allowed on his own campus per the bishop yet it is allowed by the bishop at a neighboring parish which like the school also ultimately belongs to the bishop? The only thing that comes to mind is that the campus is actually owned by a religious order, not the bishop and that the bishop does not want to go to bat for the priest. It’s easier to have him celebrate the Mass is a nearby parish he does actually own?

There is more to this story then meets the eye.

 

[DaveBj]

Where do you get this idea, Dave? If you have a missal you can follow along by the actions if not the words the priest is saying. Sure, I’d rather be able to hear Father than not hear him, but our rights have nothing to do with it. It’s not your job or mine to police the Mass to make sure the prayers are correct.

Police the Mass, no. But the requirement that the faithful attend Mass weekly implies a requirement that we be able to know that what we are attending is, in fact, a Mass.

Hearing what the priest is saying has nothing to do with what is taking place on the altar.

No, but it has everything to do with KNOWING whether anything is taking place on the altar or now.

You don’t need to hear the Priest pray in order for you to pray the same prayers that he does. It doesn’t have to be done in precise lock step in order to be valid. You may like it that way buit it is not a requirement, I somehow doubt that you are incapable of praying unless you can hear someone else doing so.
If it is the case though, then you need to work on that.

As far as having a right to hear what the Priest is saying where did you get that idea from?

I’m more interested in where you get the idea that I DON’T have a right to hear what the priest is saying.

And yes, I see now that you have bought completely into Martin Luthers old argument about not being able to trust the Priest to say the prayers correctly and that is truly sad…

My only connection with Lutheranism is that my dad had me baptized Lutheran when I was a year old, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. As far as trusting the priests is concerned, I refer you to all the threads about priests having their own way with the text of the liturgy. With all that going on, your dang right I want to be able to hear what they’re saying.

DaveBj

 

[malphono]

This still makes no sense to me. The priest is the principal of the school so he has the authority to be on campus. Check. He is obviously allowed to celebrate the Mass within that diocese. Check. It doesn’t sound as though he is displacing anyone on Sunday by celebrating the EF Mass. Check.

This is not allowed on his own campus per the bishop yet it is allowed by the bishop at a neighboring parish which like the school also ultimately belongs to the bishop? The only thing that comes to mind is that the campus is actually owned by a religious order, not the bishop and that the bishop does not want to go to bat for the priest. It’s easier to have him celebrate the Mass is a nearby parish he does actually own?

There is more to this story then meets the eye.

Not to argue, but it makes perfectly good sense.

The school is diocesan property. There is no parish involved. Nor is there a religious order involved. In other words, it is subject to the diocese and ONLY to the diocese.

It all comes back to the bishop and the chancery. They don’t seem to interfere with the EF in a parish setting but they just will not tolerate it on diocesan property. Refer again to the example of the rector of the cathedral.

Apparently they are in the “self preservation” mode: they are children of the OF, and so are not particularly familiar with the EF themselves. Neither does it seem they have any particular respect for it nor the wishes of the faithful. Of course they are “officials” and it is quite common among that breed (whether ecclesiastical or civil) to not give up what they perceive to be their power, at least not voluntarily.

 

[Leonius]

Hi all. This post does not intend to make any judgment on the Holy Mass. I was born in the late 70s and had never gone to a TLM until last Sunday. I was very excited about it after having had a great confession the prior day, and was looking forward to learn about the Mass that our saints enjoy in the last centuries. Kind of a treat for Christmas!

You should have did the learning before you went to the Mass.

So I woke up very early for Mass, and went ready for such a great experience. However, I must say that I felt totally out of place during the EF Mass, almost like an alien and I don’t know why.

Because its out of this world?

I tried to follow the guide with translations, but usually got lost.

That’s ok that’s normal for your first time, key things to remember, you do not have to be at exactly the right point word for word with the Priest & observing the actions of the priest and servers are the best way to keep up with what is going on not trying to listen to the words.

I could not hear a word of what the Priest was saying, there were no songs, people were reverent but kind of cold, I don’t know … it was weird territory.

That’s ok your not so much meant to listening to the Priest, you are meant to be praying, its not about you passively sitting listening like you do when you watch tv. If there was no songs it was a Low Mass, people were not been cold they were praying to God like you should have been doing, that is one of the advantages about TLM, the reverent quiet atmosphere lends itself to interior prayer. Might I suggest the reason you were uncomfortable was because you are used to having many distractions to keep your attention.

So weird that I was not able to stay until the end, I felt like I had to leave and actually I left while people where waiting for Communion. I went to my usual OF Mass the same day and took Communion, and felt so relieved, but at the same time very sad that I could not appreciate the beauty of the EF Mass.

Got bored eh? You should be sad, I am sad for you as well.

I am so glad that I was born during the OF times and I am able to understand, follow, and participate in our Holy Mass.

There was a time you know when you couldn’t understand the OF either, if you had been born with the TLM you would understand it by now, it is not as hard as you seem to think.

Of course, I get a bit angry with the noise, the announcements, and sometimes lack of reverence to Our Lord, but still it’s such a wonderful Rite, the one that brought God to my life, and I feel very proud of it.

Well you are very hard to please if your don’t like noise but then cant stand the silence of a low mass either.

I don’t know if I will ever go to another EF Mass, but now I am sure that the Holy Spirit did brought the NO Mass to people like myself, devout Catholics of the 20-21st century that want to pray to God in our own language.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

You like the NO because it is the one you are used to and so is the one you are more comfortable at, if you had been brought up with the TLM the way you feel about the NO would be the way you feel about the TLM, the reason it is so “weird” is because it is so different to your previous experiences, this is not a problem of the TLM it is a problem with you, though the problem is not necessarily your fault.