R
Rolltide
Guest
So why are photographs not false idols then? What about nativity sets? How about illustrations in Bibles?
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F
fireandflames
Guest
I totally agree with this definition, the cross is used all over the world in religious cerimonies and many use it in thier worship. If you say you dont then i believe you, but what can we say for the millions who do?
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bpbasilphx
Guest
…
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fireandflames
Guest
I find in interesting that with all the idols and statues in many churches, people still dont get that many times God said beware. Ps.115:4-8
R
Rolltide
Guest
Catholics are very aware of it. That’s why you won’t see any statues of Hindu gods or golden calves, which represent false gods. You still haven’t explained why illustrations in Bibles, or photographs, or nativity sets aren’t false idols.
R
Rawb
Guest
I find it interesting that, despite being told repeatedly, you won’t admit that just because a statue is in a Church, doesn’t make it an idol.
I’ll go say some Hail Mary’s for you, in front of the statue of the Our Lady of All Graces that comes to me from my Great-Grandmother, before I go to bed. It’s almost midnight here.
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fireandflames
Guest
The statue of mary? Jesus on the cross? are these not objects of worship? I have seen people kneel and bow to these images when praying.
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fireandflames
Guest
Praying for me is not needed, but thanks for thinking of me.I find it interesting that, despite being told repeatedly, you won’t admit that just because a statue is in a Church, doesn’t make it an idol.
I’ll go say some Hail Mary’s for you, in front of the statue of the Our Lady of All Graces that comes to me from my Great-Grandmother, before I go to bed. It’s almost midnight here.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
I find in interesting that with all the idols and statues in many churches, people still dont get that many times God said beware. Ps.115:4-8
**I don’t know where you’ve been frequenting, but I’ve never been to ANY Christian Church of any denomination that has an idol in it.
Statues maybe. No idols.
Let me take that back.
Back when I was a Baptist, before I got saved, we said prayers to pieces of cloth. Did you know that?**
The statue of mary? Jesus on the cross? are these not objects of worship? I have seen people kneel and bow to these images when praying.
**When you kneel by your bed to say your prayers, are you worshipping your bed?
Nobody is kneeling TO an image any more than you are kneeling TO your bed.
**
**I don’t know where you’ve been frequenting, but I’ve never been to ANY Christian Church of any denomination that has an idol in it.
Statues maybe. No idols.
Let me take that back.
Back when I was a Baptist, before I got saved, we said prayers to pieces of cloth. Did you know that?**
The statue of mary? Jesus on the cross? are these not objects of worship? I have seen people kneel and bow to these images when praying.
**When you kneel by your bed to say your prayers, are you worshipping your bed?
Nobody is kneeling TO an image any more than you are kneeling TO your bed.
**
A
adrift
Guest
You are misquoting me so your question is moot. The cross is NOT a god. ONLY if people believe it is a god does it become an idol. I know of NO ONE who believes that the cross is a god not to mention millions.
R
Rolltide
Guest
Yes… as images to remind us of the great role models of our Christian faith, and to help us focus our worship on GOD… NOT a false god.
R
Rolltide
Guest
When I teach this concept in my college Western Civilization classes, I phrase it something likes this.
In the Hail Mary, we say “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray FOR us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.” We are not praying TO her as much as we are asking her to pray WITH us and FOR us.
Now, look at the Penitential Rite of the Mass, which you will hear every week in church:
“And I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
All the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray FOR me to the Lord our God.”
Catholics consider prayer so important, that here, we are actually asking the whole of creation to join us in prayer, including both the living, the dead, and even the angels and saints! This serves as a reminder that we are a part of a larger creation, and helps foster Christian unity.
I thought this relevant for understanding veneration of the saints…
- If you are a Christian, have you ever asked your congregation to pray for an intention, like a sick relative? The answer is that most likely, you have. Your whole congregation, together, prays aloud for the person to get better (or whatever the intention is). Is this problematic?
- As a Christian, do you believe in eternal life, whether it be in heaven or hell? For MOST Christian denominations, this is a key element of the faith. It is critical that we understand that when we die, we do not simply cease to exist, but continue on, thanks to the saving power of Christ. Death no longer has any power over us.
- So… if people do not cease to exist, and it’s ok to ask for a group of living people to pray together, why wouldn’t it be ok to ask both the living AND the dead to pray for our intentions?
In the Hail Mary, we say “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray FOR us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.” We are not praying TO her as much as we are asking her to pray WITH us and FOR us.
Now, look at the Penitential Rite of the Mass, which you will hear every week in church:
“And I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
All the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray FOR me to the Lord our God.”
Catholics consider prayer so important, that here, we are actually asking the whole of creation to join us in prayer, including both the living, the dead, and even the angels and saints! This serves as a reminder that we are a part of a larger creation, and helps foster Christian unity.
I thought this relevant for understanding veneration of the saints…
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fireandflames
Guest
So why do you have the cross?
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fireandflames
Guest
Jesus said noone comes to the father except through me…not other objects
R
Rolltide
Guest
The cross and the crucifix both serve a purpose in the Catholic Church. The crucifix is a reminder of the price in horrible suffering that Jesus paid for our salvation, and the cross is a symbol of the resurrection.
A
adrift
Guest
No. Webster definition of worship
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power ; also : an act of expressing such reverence
They are not divine or had supernatural powers. I have seen men kneel to ask a woman to marry him that does not indicate that he thinks she is divine. You know you argument is old really old and without merit. Before posting why didn’t you do a search. This has been discussed many times.
R
Rolltide
Guest
Correct. We are coming to Him through Him… and His message. The objects are not the objects of worship themselves. Like the Bible, they assist us.
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fireandflames
Guest
Can you show me where in the bible i can study this.
R
Rolltide
Guest
Revelations is a good place to start. Pick up “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn for a very thorough explanation of this topic, and how Revelation is also a reflection of the Mass, and how the Mass is a reflection of worship in heaven.
R
Rolltide
Guest
This is taken from The Lamb’s Supper. Compare the imagery of Revelation to the parts of the Catholic Mass:
Sunday worship 1:10
a high priest 1:13
an altar 8:3-4; 11:1; 14:18
priests (presybteroi) 4:4; 11:15; 14:3; 19:4
vestments 1:13; 4:4; 6:11; 7:9; 15:6; 19:13-14
consecrated celibacy 14:4
lamp stands, or Menorah 1:12, 2:5
penitence ch. 2 and 3
incense 5:8; 8:3-5
the book, or scroll 5:1
the Eucharistic Host 2:17
chalices 15:7; ch. 16; 21:9
the Sign of the Cross (the tau) 7:3; 14:1; 22:4
the Gloria 15:3-4
the Alleluia 19:1, 3, 4, 6
Lift up your hearts 11:12
the “Holy, Holy, Holy” 4:8
the Amen 19:4; 22:21
the “Lamb of God” 5:6 and throughout
the prominence of the Virgin Mary 12:1-6; 13-17
intercession of angels and saints 5:8; 6:0-10; 8:3-4
(You will want to pay attention to these three in particular. Jesus is referred to as the “Lamb of God” in Revelation (and almost exclusively in Revelation) to emphasize his ongoing sacrifice. He becomes the one perfect sacrifice for all, and replaces eternally all other sacrifice. His sacrifice, which continues for all time in the Catholic Mass, is a foreshadowing of the worship we will have for God in Heaven.)
devotion to St. Michael, archangel 12:7
antiphonal chant 4:8-11; 5:9-14; 7:10-12; 18:1-8
readings from Scripture ch 2-3; 5; 8:2-11
(again, note the strong importance of Scripture with regard to the Mass)
the priesthood of the faithful 1:6; 20:6
catholicity, or universality 7:9
silent contemplation 8:1
the marriage supper of the Lamb 19:9, 17
I could go into much greater detail, but Dr. Hahn does it much better than I.
Sunday worship 1:10
a high priest 1:13
an altar 8:3-4; 11:1; 14:18
priests (presybteroi) 4:4; 11:15; 14:3; 19:4
vestments 1:13; 4:4; 6:11; 7:9; 15:6; 19:13-14
consecrated celibacy 14:4
lamp stands, or Menorah 1:12, 2:5
penitence ch. 2 and 3
incense 5:8; 8:3-5
the book, or scroll 5:1
the Eucharistic Host 2:17
chalices 15:7; ch. 16; 21:9
the Sign of the Cross (the tau) 7:3; 14:1; 22:4
the Gloria 15:3-4
the Alleluia 19:1, 3, 4, 6
Lift up your hearts 11:12
the “Holy, Holy, Holy” 4:8
the Amen 19:4; 22:21
the “Lamb of God” 5:6 and throughout
the prominence of the Virgin Mary 12:1-6; 13-17
intercession of angels and saints 5:8; 6:0-10; 8:3-4
(You will want to pay attention to these three in particular. Jesus is referred to as the “Lamb of God” in Revelation (and almost exclusively in Revelation) to emphasize his ongoing sacrifice. He becomes the one perfect sacrifice for all, and replaces eternally all other sacrifice. His sacrifice, which continues for all time in the Catholic Mass, is a foreshadowing of the worship we will have for God in Heaven.)
devotion to St. Michael, archangel 12:7
antiphonal chant 4:8-11; 5:9-14; 7:10-12; 18:1-8
readings from Scripture ch 2-3; 5; 8:2-11
(again, note the strong importance of Scripture with regard to the Mass)
the priesthood of the faithful 1:6; 20:6
catholicity, or universality 7:9
silent contemplation 8:1
the marriage supper of the Lamb 19:9, 17
I could go into much greater detail, but Dr. Hahn does it much better than I.
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