I wonder if non-Catholics realize that without the Catholic Church there would not be a Bible (nm)

[adrift]

I’m pretty sure we (Jews) would still have ours. When it comes to Torah scrolls, the Church burned far more than it preserved.

I did a small search and could find no reference of Christians burning the Torah. Would you please provide evidence. I did find Romans but no mention of the Church doing so.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Okay…and? And what was the ‘main’ language of the time? Greek. If I am correct,the majority of the Jews during Jesus’ lifetime living in Palestine spoke Aramaic,not Hebrew. Who understood Hebrew? The priests,scribes,etc.

Aramaic at that time was a regional dialect, mostly used in the Galilee region. Every Jew spoke Hebrew. They were taught it from their youth because they were required to read the Scriptures in Hebrew (as well as to understand it being read in the synagogues). Otherwise, they all knew Greek, as it was the lingua franca.

The notorious term:apocrypha. The term used by Protestants for the books they REJECTED.

First used by St. Jerome. Not Protestants.

 

[eucharisteo]

Aramaic at that time was a regional dialect, mostly used in the Galilee region. Every Jew spoke Hebrew. They were taught it from their youth because they were required to read the Scriptures in Hebrew (as well as to understand it being read in the synagogues). Otherwise, they all knew Greek, as it was the lingua franca.

First used by St. Jerome. Not Protestants.

What you say jibes with what I’ve learned. Jerome was an ornery man. He was grumpy I read. TId bit of information. He was not a theologian. Knowing languages does not make one in the know. Even if he were given his way it would not change anything in my beliefs. The Church authority agreed universally that the books Jerome called the apocrypha belongs to the canon of scripture and that it must be included since it was widely used during the time of Christ as well. That does not give individuals authority to exclude it.

 

[Splinker]

I did a small search and could find no reference of Christians burning the Torah. Would you please provide evidence. I did find Romans but no mention of the Church doing so.

Off the top of my head Paris, 13th century I believe.
I will post some citations shortly

 

[Splinker]

The burnings in Paris were of the Talmud, as opposed to the Torah scrolls. At the direction of Pope Gregory IX. 12,000 were burned. Burning the Jewish scriptures was a priortiy for quite a few popes.

A link from wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning#Jewish_Holy_Books_.28by_the_Seleucid_monarch_Antiochus_IV.29

 

[Splinker]

In the 1480s Tomas Torquemada promoted the burning of non-Catholic literature, especially the Jewish Talmud

 

[adrift]

I’m pretty sure we (Jews) would still have ours. When it comes to Torah scrolls, the Church burned far more than it preserved.

Perhaps I presumed to much or you to little. You have said that the Church burned Torah scrolls. I take this to mean the ones that the Jews used. This statement that more were burned than preserved needs to be documented which so far you have not done.
Are you claiming that if I burn my Jerusalem Bible that I am burning the Torah? I guess you could but it would leave an erroneous impression.

Off the top of my head Paris, 13th century I believe.
I will post some citations shortly

The burnings in Paris were of the Talmud, as opposed to the Torah scrolls. At the direction of Pope Gregory IX. 12,000 were burned. Burning the Jewish scriptures was a priortiy for quite a few popes.

A link from wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning#Jewish_Holy_Books_.28by_the_Seleucid_monarch_Antiochus_IV.29

Your link does not substantiate your claim. It makes no mention of Popes burning the Torah or making it a priority to do so. What is contained in your link it that the Romans destroyed Jewish Scripture.
What is mentioned about the 13th century is

During the 13th century, the Catholic Church waged a brutal campaign against the Cathars of Languedoc (smaller numbers also lived elsewhere in Europe), culminating in the Albigensian Crusade. Nearly every Cathar text that could be found was destroyed, in an effort to completely extirpate their heretical beliefs; only a few are known to have survived.

In the 1480s Tomas Torquemada promoted the burning of non-Catholic literature, especially the Jewish Talmud

I have not been able to substantiate what you say here. I don’t doubt that he burned the Talmud but that wasn’t the Torah. That doesn’t substantiate your initial statement.
So far you have not provided any source to substantiate that more scrolls of the Torah were destroyed than preserved, that the Popes priority was to burn the Jewish Scriptures.

 

[Fisher]

God gave us His Holy Word.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:8

6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
Mal 3:5-6

Who gave us the Holy Word of God?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
2 Tim 3:16

1. Old Testament

The Old Testament was written by Moses, David and Solomon, prophets, seers and kings. There was no “church” of any kind to claim responsibility for it. God inspired individuals to bring God’s word to the people. The Old Testament is the recorded revelation of God up until about 400 BC.

1. The Inter-Testamental Period

The time between about 400 BC and about 5 BC is usually called the Years of Prophetic Silence. This is because God created a process that lasted 400 years to create a world climate ready for the coming of the promised Messiah. There was no “church” at this time, either. But there was the new creation of the “synagogue,” since the Jewish people needed to worship God and did not have the Temple when they were in exile. When many came back 400-500 BC, they already had functional synagogues; and even though the Temple was being rebuilt by those returning from exile, the synagogue idea remained and more were built. This was the beginning of the “congregation” or “church” as we have it today.

But there was no Scripture being written during this period. That was yet to come after one came “in the spirit and power of Elias” (Luke 1:17).

The Time of Christ

It is likely that Matthew (Levi) the tax collector and later disciple of Jesus took notes of what happened during Jesus’ ministry. However, it is also true that were God in the flesh living among you, His words would burn into your soul. I am sure, as the apostles clearly recollected as they wrote the New Testament (2 Peter 1:16-21; 1 John 1:1-3; 4:14), they could not escape the image and words of Jesus Christ, God the Son and Son of God, when He spoke into their hearts (Luke 9:44; 24:32).

But it wasn’t a “church” that made them write.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

God the Holy Spirit inspired them, perfectly and accurately, to write the words of God for the church. The church did not “inspire” anything.

The Church Age

When the apostles wrote their letters, the congregations received them. They read them. They spread them. They copied them for other brethren in Christ Jesus. And they recognized their authority in the Christian’s life. So the Scriptures were produced by men of God, not by “the church.” But they were produced FOR the church.

The last book of the Bible was Revelation, written about 96 AD, just before the apostle John died around 100 AD. After the apostles died, the churches continued to collect the letters they did not have, to read them and understand the authority under God by which they wrote.

 

[T_More]

God gave us His Holy Word.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:8

6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
Mal 3:5-6

Who gave us the Holy Word of God?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
2 Tim 3:16

1. Old Testament

The Old Testament was written by Moses, David and Solomon, prophets, seers and kings. There was no “church” of any kind to claim responsibility for it. God inspired individuals to bring God’s word to the people. The Old Testament is the recorded revelation of God up until about 400 BC.

**Sure there was a “Church” of sorts, God’s chosen people, the nation of Israel. Let’s remember what one of the definitions of church is:

Church: a body or organization of religious believers. =Merriam-Webster

**

1. The Inter-Testamental Period

The time between about 400 BC and about 5 BC is usually called the Years of Prophetic Silence. This is because God created a process that lasted 400 years to create a world climate ready for the coming of the promised Messiah. There was no “church” at this time, either. But there was the new creation of the “synagogue,” since the Jewish people needed to worship God and did not have the Temple when they were in exile. When many came back 400-500 BC, they already had functional synagogues; and even though the Temple was being rebuilt by those returning from exile, the synagogue idea remained and more were built. This was the beginning of the “congregation” or “church” as we have it today.

But there was no Scripture being written during this period. That was yet to come after one came “in the spirit and power of Elias” (Luke 1:17).

**The Deuterocanonical books were written during this time. So yes, there was Scripture being written. **

The Time of Christ

It is likely that Matthew (Levi) the tax collector and later disciple of Jesus took notes of what happened during Jesus’ ministry. However, it is also true that were God in the flesh living among you, His words would burn into your soul. I am sure, as the apostles clearly recollected as they wrote the New Testament (2 Peter 1:16-21; 1 John 1:1-3; 4:14), they could not escape the image and words of Jesus Christ, God the Son and Son of God, when He spoke into their hearts (Luke 9:44; 24:32).

But it wasn’t a “church” that made them write.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

**This was referring to the OT. And while indeed it is profitable, I don’t think St Paul thought that while he was writting this that it would actually become Scripture. A Church made that determination that indeed it was. St Paul referred to the Church as the pillar of truth in 1 Tim. 3:15 and the Church that determied that St Pauls epistles,as well as the Gospels and all the other books that comprise the NT was Scripture was the CC. **

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

God the Holy Spirit inspired them, perfectly and accurately, to write the words of God for the church. The church did not “inspire” anything.

The Church Age

When the apostles wrote their letters, the congregations received them. They read them. They spread them. They copied them for other brethren in Christ Jesus. And they recognized their authority in the Christian’s life. So the Scriptures were produced by men of God, not by “the church.” But they were produced FOR the church.

The last book of the Bible was Revelation, written about 96 AD, just before the apostle John died around 100 AD. After the apostles died, the churches continued to collect the letters they did not have, to read them and understand the authority under God by which they wrote.

 

[callmecharles]

I wonder if non-Catholics realize that without the Catholic Church there would not be a Bible (nm)

In my experience, the non-Catholics I’ve met (mostly evangelicals, baptists, pentecostals and such) are usually unaware of the biblical canon’s origins. I realize there are a good many non-Catholics here who may well be experts on the subject, but that’s just my observation.

There are scriptures in the Bible which refer to ‘the scriptures’. More than likely, the writings in question are OT stuff, but I think that some readers who haven’t really looked at the history take it as evidence that the NT was around and compiled very soon after Christ’s ascension. I’ve even heard it told a few times that the KJV was same Bible Christ read… don’t ask me how that works.

There are a good many early writings Protestants and others can point to with Biblical canons. Since the beliefs are, in the grand scheme of things, pretty similar, it’s not implausible to say that if Protestants had developed the canon, they would’ve reached the same conclusions they currently stand at (plus or minus the epistle of James. ).

 

[Nicea325]

Aramaic at that time was a regional dialect, mostly used in the Galilee region. Every Jew spoke Hebrew. They were taught it from their youth because they were required to read the Scriptures in Hebrew (as well as to understand it being read in the synagogues). Otherwise, they all knew Greek, as it was the lingua franca.

Correct

First used by St. Jerome. Not Protestants.

Nope! First by the Jews who made an official canon due to Christianity. The Sadducees more than likely viewed some of the books of the 24 OT canon as apocryphal.They only accepted the Pentateuch.

Yeah and you failed to mention Jerome put aside his will and private judgment to submit to the will and authority of the church. Thus,he included them in his Latin version.

 

[Splinker]

To Adrift,

It isn’t exactly disputed that the Church engaged i a campaign to burn Jewish sacred texts. I did say the burnings in Paris were Talmuds (which is the oral Torah) – in other words I corrected my original statment that they were torah scrolls. Nevertheless, the Talmud is a sacred text, this ocurred before the invention of the printing press and was a devestating attack on Judaism.

The link I posted certainly discusses this and names the popes who directed burning of Jewish texts. It’s a link to a history of book burning, so you may have missed it.

 

[adrift]

To Adrift,

It isn’t exactly disputed that the Church engaged i a campaign to burn Jewish sacred texts. I did say the burnings in Paris were Talmuds (which is the oral Torah) – in other words I corrected my original statment that they were torah scrolls. Nevertheless, the Talmud is a sacred text, this ocurred before the invention of the printing press and was a devestating attack on Judaism.

The link I posted certainly discusses this and names the popes who directed burning of Jewish texts. It’s a link to a history of book burning, so you may have missed it.

Talmuds is the oral Torah? I thought that the Talmud was a collection of ancient Rabbinic writings and the Torah was the first five books of what we call the Old Testament.
You linked an article that doesn’t mention what you claim. You say that there is a link? Why not just provide that link. The subject is the Bible. Your claim was that more was destroyed of the Bible than preserved. You have not substantiated that claim.

 

[eucharisteo]

There is no secret about the large number of wrong things throughout history done by men in the name of the Church. That is one reason I’m very glad that it no longer acts at governing body. Power corrupts. But this has nothing to do with the facts about the deposit of faith, the sacred scriptures as the topic of this thread. So, what’s the point?

 

[AmateurPianist]

To Adrift,

It isn’t exactly disputed that the Church engaged i a campaign to burn Jewish sacred texts. I did say the burnings in Paris were Talmuds (which is the oral Torah) – in other words I corrected my original statment that they were torah scrolls. Nevertheless, the Talmud is a sacred text, this ocurred before the invention of the printing press and was a devestating attack on Judaism.

The link I posted certainly discusses this and names the popes who directed burning of Jewish texts. It’s a link to a history of book burning, so you may have missed it.

Dear Splinker:

As a Christian I would like to apologize for the shameful treatment the Jewish people received at the hands of Christians as described in this incident.

It was wrong. There should be no excuses for it.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Dear Splinker:

As a Christian I would like to apologize for the shameful treatment the Jewish people received at the hands of Christians as described in this incident.

Although this grace of mistreatment of forgiveness goes across the board; I hesitate here, because Splinker has not included that the Jews persecuted the Catholic Christians for over 400 years since the resurection of Jesus Christ.

Secondly Splinker needs to confirm that the Catholic Church would never burn the Tora, because these books have long been canonized by the Catholic church. I am interested if Splinker is aware of Jews and Muslims penetrating the Catholic magisterium and misleading the faithful Catholics to their anti’christ teachings, for which the Pope and other Catholic men including not church men sought out these heretical false priests and false bishops and removed them from the populace and their antichrist literature?

There is enough blame to go around as far as persecution is concerned especially from Jews who prostituted with the Roman Empire to persecute Jesus and his Catholic Church for the next four hundred years.

The shame is not due you, for you were not there, we are to learn never to repeat such atrosities as our enemies did to the Church of Jesus Christ which history confirms were all Catholic. We are called to love our enemies.

This antisemite sentiment is never felt by the Catholic Church as a whole. Let us continue with the OP.

 

[Splinker]

Talmuds is the oral Torah? I thought that the Talmud was a collection of ancient Rabbinic writings and the Torah was the first five books of what we call the Old Testament.
You linked an article that doesn’t mention what you claim. You say that there is a link? Why not just provide that link. The subject is the Bible. Your claim was that more was destroyed of the Bible than preserved. You have not substantiated that claim.

The link I provided does state what I claim. Here’s more.
chaburas.org/paris.html

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0019_0_19544.html
From the second link:

Subsequently the burning of the Talmud was repeatedly urged by the popes. In France, Louis IX ordered further confiscations in 1247 and 1248 and upheld the principle in an ordinance of December 1254. It was confirmed by Philip III in 1284 and Philip IV in 1290 and 1299. A further burning was ordered in Toulouse in 1319 by the inquisitor Bernard Gui and in Perpignan. In his manual for inquisitors Gui also singled out the works of *Rashi, David *Kimḥi, and Maimonides for condemnation.

The Talmud contains the Mishna, which is the oral Torah, and rabbinic commentary on the Mishna, which is called the Gemara.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=Fisher;6568336]God gave us His Holy Word.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:8

6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
Mal 3:5-6

Who gave us the Holy Word of God?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
2 Tim 3:16

1. Old Testament

The Old Testament was written by Moses, David and Solomon, prophets, seers and kings. There was no “church” of any kind to claim responsibility for it. God inspired individuals to bring God’s word to the people. The Old Testament is the recorded revelation of God up until about 400 BC.

1. The Inter-Testamental Period

The time between about 400 BC and about 5 BC is usually called the Years of Prophetic Silence. This is because God created a process that lasted 400 years to create a world climate ready for the coming of the promised Messiah. There was no “church” at this time, either. But there was the new creation of the “synagogue,” since the Jewish people needed to worship God and did not have the Temple when they were in exile. When many came back 400-500 BC, they already had functional synagogues; and even though the Temple was being rebuilt by those returning from exile, the synagogue idea remained and more were built. This was the beginning of the “congregation” or “church” as we have it today.

But there was no Scripture being written during this period. That was yet to come after one came “in the spirit and power of Elias” (Luke 1:17).

The Time of Christ

It is likely that Matthew (Levi) the tax collector and later disciple of Jesus took notes of what happened during Jesus’ ministry. However, it is also true that were God in the flesh living among you, His words would burn into your soul. I am sure, as the apostles clearly recollected as they wrote the New Testament (2 Peter 1:16-21; 1 John 1:1-3; 4:14), they could not escape the image and words of Jesus Christ, God the Son and Son of God, when He spoke into their hearts (Luke 9:44; 24:32).

But it wasn’t a “church” that made them write.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

God the Holy Spirit inspired them, perfectly and accurately, to write the words of God for the church. The church did not “inspire” anything.

The Church Age

When the apostles wrote their letters, the congregations received them. They read them. They spread them. They copied them for other brethren in Christ Jesus. And they recognized their authority in the Christian’s life. So the Scriptures were produced by men of God, not by “the church.” But they were produced FOR the church.

The last book of the Bible was Revelation, written about 96 AD, just before the apostle John died around 100 AD. After the apostles died, the churches continued to collect the letters they did not have, to read them and understand the authority under God by which they wrote.

This commentary never conflicts with the Catholic Church; One just needs to calculate through the past 2000 years of history of which Church existed since the resurrection? which remains the Pillar of Truth (see 1Timothy 3:15).There is only one Church that these New Testament writers are members of which is the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic (universal) Church. The Churches which collected the apostolic letters and practiced their teachings and read their writings in her Liturgies were all “Catholic”. Knowing who and what the Church is brings in the true revelation of these scriptures.

 

[Splinker]

The burnings in Paris were of the Talmud, as opposed to the Torah scrolls. At the direction of Pope Gregory IX. 12,000 were burned. Burning the Jewish scriptures was a priortiy for quite a few popes.

A link from wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning#Jewish_Holy_Books_.28by_the_Seleucid_monarch_Antiochus_IV.29

You must have missed the quote, which is from the above link:

The Talmud (at Paris), first of many such burnings over the next centuries
In 1242, The French crown burned all Talmud copies in Paris, about 12,000, after the book was “charged” and “found guilty” in the Paris trial sometimes called “the Paris debate”. This burnings of Hebrew books were initiated by Pope Gregory IX, who persuaded French King Louis IX to undertake it. He was followed by subsequent popes. The Church and Christian states viewed the Talmud as a book hateful and insulting toward Christ and gentiles. The most ferocious haters of Judaism and Jewish books among them were Innocent IV (1243–1254), Clement IV (1256–1268), John XXII (1316–1334), Paul IV (1555–1559), Pius V (1566–1572) and Clement VIII (1592–1605). They almost succeeded in stamping out Jewish books entirely. Yet Jews continued to pen their holy books, and once the printing press was invented, the Church found it impossible to destroy entire printed editions of the Talmud and other sacred books. Johann Gutenberg, the German who invented the printing press around 1450, certainly helped stamp out the effectiveness of further book burnings. The tolerant (for its time) policies of Venice made it a center for the printing of Jewish books (as of books in general), yet the Talmud was publicly burned in 1553 and there was a lesser known burning of Hebrew book in 1568.

 

[TriuneUnity]

What you say jibes with what I’ve learned. Jerome was an ornery man. He was grumpy I read. TId bit of information. He was not a theologian. Knowing languages does not make one in the know. Even if he were given his way it would not change anything in my beliefs. The Church authority agreed universally that the books Jerome called the apocrypha belongs to the canon of scripture and that it must be included since it was widely used during the time of Christ as well. That does not give individuals authority to exclude it.

You are right about the ornery part LOL. It’s quite amusing to read some of the statements the other fathers made about that. Augustine seems to have not taken to him too keenly. I agree that the DC books should NOT be called apocrypha, as I believe these are more accurately directed against gnostic and out and out false compositions.