I would like to discuss the theology on Mary

[Atheling2]

Yes I do believe Jesus was conceived via the holy spirit and yes he was both God and man but my issue is that if someone believes that mary was without sin contradicts what the bible says. The belief that Mary was sinless is not in scripture and we are to test all spirits I cannot find one scripture that says she was sinless and thus I cannot believe it. Now if there is such scripture then I want to see it but until it is proven with the word of God it’s just a man made belief

First off, where in Scripture does it say it must come from Scripture? Sola Scripture is a false teaching.

 

[Hungry4God]

First off, where in Scripture does it say it must come from Scripture? Sola Scripture is a false teaching.

The word of God is a precious and sacred thing, I have seen the power that it has I have seen how a single scripture can save a life. If you would rather rely on mans teachings than the words of God himself that is your choice but when you read the words in that book it’s as if God himself is speaking to you.

 

[styrgwillidar]

The word of God is a precious and sacred thing, I have seen the power that it has I have seen how a single scripture can save a life. If you would rather rely on mans teachings than the words of God himself that is your choice but when you read the words in that book it’s as if God himself is speaking to you.

… but you are relying on man’s teaching. You are accepting a tradition of men interpreting scripture, independent of any authority or guidance. How can you be sure your interpretation is correct and not invalidating the word of God?

 

[z_0101]

**It is required **to pray to Mary and the saints because we believe in the Communion of Saints.

Just because one believes in the Communion if Saints doesn’t mean you have to pray to them. Can you show me that doing so is a requirement in the CCC or Code of Canon Law?

I agree that there is certainly a very long tradition of praying to and asking the “Mighty Ones” and the Angels to pray to the Lord (Ps103 and 148 come to mind amongst others along with The Book of Revelation and in the writings of the Church Fathers amongst other documents of the Church); however, I’ve never seen any codified directive requiring any Catholic to seek the intervention, or prayers of, any Saint… or Mary. ((Mind you, I ask Mary, The Angels, and Saints to pray for me quite frequently; thus, don’t take this as a statement against such prayers. This is just a request that you clarify and support your position ))

 

[Fauken]

The word of God is a precious and sacred thing, I have seen the power that it has I have seen how a single scripture can save a life. If you would rather rely on mans teachings than the words of God himself that is your choice but when you read the words in that book it’s as if God himself is speaking to you.

No one is denying the authority and potency of Scripture. But the problem with the Sola Scriptura ideology that pervades Protestantism is that it focuses purely on the chicken without any consideration of the egg; the Bible did not just come into its own existence. Jesus established and gave authority to his Church on Earth, which discerned what was inspired and what was not and compiled the Bible.

 

[Atheling2]

The word of God is a precious and sacred thing, I have seen the power that it has I have seen how a single scripture can save a life. If you would rather rely on mans teachings than the words of God himself that is your choice but when you read the words in that book it’s as if God himself is speaking to you.

You still have not given proof that all teachings come from the Bible. If this is true, then where is the Scriptural directive saying so?

“Stand fast and hold firm to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” (2 Thess. 2:15).

Traditions, letters and oral statements! St. Paul himself tells us that we are taught also by those methods, which is why the Church has 2000 years of encyclicals and letters from the Church Fathers which also guides us.

To say that it must come from the Bible, but not have Biblical support is circular reasoning, and hence, a failure. There is no premise to that belief.

Also, John 21:25:

25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

The Apostle John himself said in that verse that the Lord cannot be contained in books.

 

[styrgwillidar]

No one is denying the authority and potency of Scripture. But the problem with the Sola Scriptura ideology that pervades Protestantism is that it focuses purely on the chicken without any consideration of the egg; the Bible did not just come into its own existence. Jesus established and gave authority to his Church on Earth, which discerned what was inspired and what was not and compiled the Bible.

…and if the church was not given that authority, what authority or reason is there for accepting the Bible as inspired? What is the assurance the decisions to not include various books/writings were correct? (I.e Gospel of Peter, Letters of Justin the Martyr, Apocalypse of Peter etc.) That Martin Luther was correct in rejecting the deuterocanonical books? Or what is the assurance that he didn’t go far enough, perhaps the letter of James should be discarded given it’s emphasis on works being integral to faith?

 

[Fauken]

…and if the church was not given that authority, what authority or reason is there for accepting the Bible as inspired? What is the assurance the decisions to not include various books/writings were correct? (I.e Gospel of Peter, Letters of Justin the Martyr, Apocalypse of Peter etc.) That Martin Luther was correct in rejecting the deuterocanonical books? Or what is the assurance that he didn’t go far enough, perhaps the letter of James should be discarded given it’s emphasis on works being integral to faith?

I’m sorry, did my statement imply that the Church was not given the authority to make such decisions? If I didn’t make that clear, I apologize, for that was not my intention. If my statement also implied that Luther had every right to remove the Deutercanonical books, I apologize for that as well, because that was also not my intention.

 

[Atheling2]

The problem with Protestantism is that it focuses on a Book. A very important book, yes, it is the Word of God.

But the Catholic Church focuses on a Person. Our life is tied to the Eucharist, which is the flesh and blood of Christ, as He commanded at the Last Supper. Without the Sacraments, there is no visible union with God. This has been the “glue” which held the Church together for 2000 years. Protestantism, however, has splintered into many sects, all claiming to be the true church. And unfortunately, we see that some of those sects have gone off the deep end, like Westboro Baptist church has. Recently members of the Presbyterian Church blessed an abortion clinic. They permit gay marriage. They have strayed from the faith.

 

[Hungry4God]

You still have not given proof that all teachings come from the Bible. If this is true, then where is the Scriptural directive saying so?

“Stand fast and hold firm to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” (2 Thess. 2:15).

Traditions, letters and oral statements! St. Paul himself tells us that we are taught also by those methods, which is why the Church has 2000 years of encyclicals and letters from the Church Fathers which also guides us.

To say that it must come from the Bible, but not have Biblical support is circular reasoning, and hence, a failure. There is no premise to that belief.

Also, John 21:25:

25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

The Apostle John himself said in that verse that the Lord cannot be contained in books.

I admit I don’t the specific verse that says this but I do know this if we are to believe that the bible is the holy word of God and that it is holy spirit inspired then why would we not base our beliefs on what it is written it? Because if we choose to believe something that is not in the bible then it is a man made belief and honestly made man beliefs are not very reliable as we have a very limited understanding compared to God.

Plus it’s very easy to believe a man made belief because we want to not because it’s true

 

[Atheling2]

I admit I don’t the specific verse that says this but I do know this if we are to believe that the bible is the holy word of God and that it is holy spirit inspired then why would we not base our beliefs on what it is written it? Because if we choose to believe something that is not in the bible then it is a man made belief and honestly made man beliefs are not very reliable as we have a very limited understanding compared to God.

Plus it’s very easy to believe a man made belief because we want to not because it’s true

But don’t you see? To say that it must come from Scripture but not have a Scriptural support for this destroys the whole premise!

I gave you Scriptural support demonstrating the opposite! Sola Scriptura is a false premise, and the Bible gives proof of that!

 

[styrgwillidar]

I admit I don’t the specific verse that says this but I do know this if we are to believe that the bible is the holy word of God and that it is holy spirit inspired then why would we not base our beliefs on what it is written it? Because if we choose to believe something that is not in the bible then it is a man made belief and honestly made man beliefs are not very reliable as we have a very limited understanding compared to God.

Plus it’s very easy to believe a man made belief because we want to not because it’s true

Your insistence that the entirety of Christ’s teaching is contained in the Bible is a man-made belief. But… if you accept the Bible, it does indicate a way to settle our disputes:

Matthew 18 15-18

“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

So let’s you and I go to the Church to settle this dispute about whether Mary was without sin or not. What Church was Christ referring to that we could go to? It would have to be an actual Church here on earth, with authority to determine what Christ’s guidance was and how it applies. Consistently.

 

[Elizium23]

Just because one believes in the Communion if Saints doesn’t mean you have to pray to them. Can you show me that doing so is a requirement in the CCC or Code of Canon Law?

I agree that there is certainly a very long tradition of praying to and asking the “Mighty Ones” and the Angels to pray to the Lord (Ps103 and 148 come to mind amongst others along with The Book of Revelation and in the writings of the Church Fathers amongst other documents of the Church); however, I’ve never seen any codified directive requiring any Catholic to seek the intervention, or prayers of, any Saint… or Mary. ((Mind you, I ask Mary, The Angels, and Saints to pray for me quite frequently; thus, don’t take this as a statement against such prayers. This is just a request that you clarify and support your position ))

Mary is the key to the gates of Heaven.

St. Ephrem

Open to us, O Mary, the gate of Paradise, since you have its keys!

St. Ambrose

God has entrusted the keys and treasures of Heaven to Mary.

St. Thomas Aquinas

No one can enter into Heaven except through Mary, as entering through a gate.

St. Bonaventure

Mary is called “The Gate of Heaven” because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.

St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

Holy Scripture was written for Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary.

St. Bernard

Who is this Gate if not Mary? Mary is the Gate through which Christ entered this world!

St. Ambrose

All the Saints have a great devotion to Our Lady: no grace comes from Heaven without passing through her hands. We cannot go into a house without speaking to the doorkeeper. Well, the Holy Virgin is the doorkeeper of Heaven.

St. John Mary Vianney

All gifts, virtues, and graces of the Holy Ghost are administered by the hands of Mary to whomsoever she desires, when she desires, and in the manner she desires, and to whatever degree she desires.

St. Bernardine of Siena

She opens the abyss of God’s mercy to whomsoever she wills, when she wills, and as she wills, so that there is no sinner however great who is lost if Mary protects him . . . All men: past, present, and to come, should look upon Mary as the means and negotiator of the salvation of all ages.

St. Bernard

If devotion to Mary is optional, then why does the Church require us to observe Solemnities such as Mary, the Mother of God (January 1) or the Immaculate Conception (December 8)? Is attendance at Mass, or participation in the liturgy, optional on these days if one has a “conscientious objection” to Marian devotion?

 

[Hungry4God]

But don’t you see? To say that it must come from Scripture but not have a Scriptural support for this destroys the whole premise!

I gave you Scriptural support demonstrating the opposite! Sola Scriptura is a false premise, and the Bible gives proof of that!

So then do just pick and choose what to believe? How do we know then if our beliefs are from God? How do we test the spirits? Sure I may not be able to recall the specific verse but for our beliefs and views to not have a solid base to test on opens a door to unlimited beliefs and views that may or may not be from God because we can’t test them.

 

[Fauken]

So then do just pick and choose what to believe? How do we know then if our beliefs are from God? How do we test the spirits? Sure I may not be able to recall the specific verse but for our beliefs and views to not have a solid base to test on opens a door to unlimited beliefs and views that may or may not be from God because we can’t test them.

How do you know the Bible is inerrant? How do you know it’s the word of God?

 

[styrgwillidar]

So then do just pick and choose what to believe? How do we know then if our beliefs are from God? How do we test the spirits? Sure I may not be able to recall the specific verse but for our beliefs and views to not have a solid base to test on opens a door to unlimited beliefs and views that may or may not be from God because we can’t test them.

Well… if you believe that Christ existed, and that He was the Son of God- you can see from history that His initial followers taught that He established a Church which He gave authority (in fact a commission) to teach on His behalf. You can trust in that authority, or you can reject it and rely on your own individual judgment.

 

[Hungry4God]

How do you know the Bible is inerrant? How do you know it’s the word of God?

Because I have seen the kind of power even one scripture has and can do I have seen how the word is alive and besides if it isn’t the word of God then not just mine but your faith is irrelevant because it’s just a man made book and thus jesus was not real and all of our beliefs are pointless and we really are as crazy as the world says we are

 

[Hungry4God]

Well… if you believe that Christ existed, and that He was the Son of God- you can see from history that His initial followers taught that He established a Church which He gave authority (in fact a commission) to teach on His behalf. You can trust in that authority, or you can reject it and rely on your own individual judgment.

Yes he gave that church the authority he gave all his children all who believe in him that authority but that does not include tossing the word of God and believing what we think is the truth. If they had done that in their days how do you think things would have turned out? They learned how to obey God how to live a good and Godly life from the scriptures they had

 

[Fauken]

Because I have seen the kind of power even one scripture has and can do I have seen how the word is alive and besides if it isn’t the word of God then not just mine but your faith is irrelevant because it’s just a man made book and thus jesus was not real and all of our beliefs are pointless and we really are as crazy as the world says we are

If there never was a Bible, if it was never compiled, would Jesus have never existed? There are inspirational speakers whose followers also claim their message and words have changed their lives, and yet we would not claim that they are speaking the words of God (though they may be doing his work).

 

[Elizium23]

Yes he gave that church the authority he gave all his children all who believe in him that authority but that does not include tossing the word of God and believing what we think is the truth. If they had done that in their days how do you think things would have turned out? They learned how to obey God how to live a good and Godly life from the scriptures they had

And yet for hundreds of years in the infancy of the Church, there was no written and canonical New Testament to go by. Therefore, the Church Fathers and all the faithful in those days relied on Sacred Tradition to guide them in doctrine and belief and practice. Exactly as we do today.