I would like to discuss the theology on Mary

[Atheling2]

So then do just pick and choose what to believe? How do we know then if our beliefs are from God? How do we test the spirits? Sure I may not be able to recall the specific verse but for our beliefs and views to not have a solid base to test on opens a door to unlimited beliefs and views that may or may not be from God because we can’t test them.

Good question!

And I did quote Scripture from St. Paul in an earlier post. He referred to himself and the other Apostles, as those who, by oral speech and letters, teach us. This authority was given by Christ Himself. And our Lord did not mean simply those men in their lifetime. The authority transferred to their successors, which we call the Apostolic Succession. Every Catholic priest can trace his ordination, the laying of hands, to the original Apostles. The teachings of the Church, the “Magisterium”, has the authority to pass on those teachings, using faith, tradition and reason.

For example, there is nothing in Scripture that says it is wrong to kill a prisoner of war. But the concept of showing mercy and protecting them is based on Church teachings (the foundation of the Geneva Convention came from a Spanish Catholic priest). That basis evolved from the concept that it is wrong to kill an enemy combatant who has surrendered or been disarmed and captured. The moral law, which was inscribed even in rational pagans’ hearts is understood by using reason and understanding the moral law.

St. Thomas Aquinas made a study of the moral law in the pre-Christian world, and reconciled it with Christianity. Even the Chinese philosopher Confucius, who lived centuries before our Lord understood that there is a moral law given to us by a Deity. So, before there was Scripture, the Church Fathers understood that a moral law existed in man’s hearts and minds before the revelation of Christ. The “moral” pagans like Socrates and Aristotle realized this using reason and the Golden Rule.

The Truth has existed before Scripture. The Church teaches that we must use faith, tradition, reason and Scriptures to understand and know the Truth. That is why Sola Scriptura is false. And we see too often that many sects who rely solely on Sola Scriptura have deviated from the Truth.

 

[Todd977]

This is a huge mountain that I have to tackle so I wanted to discuss this. Firstly about mary not having any sin I want to start with this scripture 1 John 1:8 f we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Now if this scripture is true then that also means Mary was a sinner as well, and the scriptures is how we know what we believe is true yes?

In 1 John 1:8, St John is stating a general rule applicable to most people but not an absolute rule applicable to all people. We know this is only a general rule that allows exceptions because elsewhere we are explicitly told that Jesus Christ was without sin. Because it is a general rule, there may be another exception. Thus, 1 John 1:8 does not necessarily mean that Mary was a sinner.

So is there a scripture that clearly says and proves Mary was sinless?

No. Biblical support for the sinlessness of Mary is rather thin. There is no verse that clearly says and proves that Mary was sinless. However, there are verses that support the notion that she was sinless. For instance, Mary is described as “a virgin” and as “the handmaid of the Lord” and of her it was said, “[T]he Lord with you,” and “you have found favor with God.” (Luke 1:27-38) Such descriptions would be consistent with her sinlessness but inconsistent with her being a sinner.

The title by which the angel addressed Mary in Luke 1:28, “O favored one” or “full of grace,” indicates that Mary received some kind of divine favor sometime prior to the angel’s visit. Among other things, sinlessness from the moment of her conception would certainly qualify as such a divine favor.

Many Christians regard Genesis 3:15 as a prophecy of Jesus Christ’s sinlessness and his ultimate victory over Satan, identifying Jesus with the woman’s seed and Satan with the serpent. (For the identification of Satan as the serpent see Wisdom 2:24; Revelation 12:9;20:2.) In the same way, many Catholics also regard Genesis 3:15 as a prophecy concerning Mary’s sinlessness, identifying Mary with the woman whom God would put enmity between her and Satan.

Second why is it required to pray to pary to intercede to Jesus? Because the scriptures say this-Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Prayerfully asking Mary to pray to God for you is not required of anyone but it is a valid option. Why did St Paul feel the need to write to Christians in distant places and ask them to pray to God for him and his intentions? (2 Corinthians 1:11; Colossians 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thessalonians 3:1; Hebrews 13:18) Why did St Paul not simply pray to God himself and leave it at that? The reason is that such mutual Christian intercession tends to build up and foster love among the members of the Church on earth and the Church in heaven.

 

[Mayita30]

And yet for hundreds of years in the infancy of the Church, there was no written and canonical New Testament to go by. Therefore, the Church Fathers and all the faithful in those days relied on Sacred Tradition to guide them in doctrine and belief and practice. Exactly as we do today.

everything was taught verbally…thats why we have lots of prayers and traditions handed down to us by the Early Christians. An example of this is The Way of the Cross

 

[Atheling2]

Because I have seen the kind of power even one scripture has and can do I have seen how the word is alive and besides if it isn’t the word of God then not just mine but your faith is irrelevant because it’s just a man made book and thus jesus was not real and all of our beliefs are pointless and we really are as crazy as the world says we are

Friend, I also have a question for you:

It says in Scripture, Luke 1: 46-55

Mary said:*
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48
For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;
behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
49
The Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50
His mercy is from age to age
to those who fear him.
51
He has shown might with his arm,
dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
52
He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones
but lifted up the lowly.
53
The hungry he has filled with good things;
the rich he has sent away empty.
54
He has helped Israel his servant,
remembering his mercy,
55
according to his promise to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”

Now, to state that one’s soul “magnifies” the Lord is quite a thing to say. Our Blessed Mother is saying that her soul “enlarges” God, or makes Him great. What does that say about who she is?

Also, she says that all generations shall call her “blessed”. Why is it that Protestants, who claim to follow the Bible, fail to call her “blessed”?

 

[Hungry4God]

Friend, I also have a question for you:

It says in Scripture, Luke 1: 46-55

Mary said:*
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48
For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;
behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
49
The Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50
His mercy is from age to age
to those who fear him.
51
He has shown might with his arm,
dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
52
He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones
but lifted up the lowly.
53
The hungry he has filled with good things;
the rich he has sent away empty.
54
He has helped Israel his servant,
remembering his mercy,
55
according to his promise to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”

Now, to state that one’s soul “magnifies” the Lord is quite a thing to say. Our Blessed Mother is saying that her soul “enlarges” God, or makes Him great. What does that say about who she is?

Also, she says that all generations shall call her “blessed”. Why is it that Protestants, who claim to follow the Bible, fail to call her “blessed”?

My soul does the same every day but I am not with out sin, to magnify God is to praise him because we are not able to to fully understand his ways let alone make him bigger.
I would also say she was blessed she had the honor to bear God’s child not because she saw herself as special but because she truly loved God and was willing to be used.

btw what is a protestant?

 

[Fauken]

My soul does the same every day but I am not with out sin, to magnify God is to praise him because we are not able to to fully understand his ways let alone make him bigger.
I would also say she was blessed she had the honor to bear God’s child not because she saw herself as special but because she truly loved God and was willing to be used.

btw what is a protestant?

This explains it better than I do: catholic.com/encyclopedia/protestantism

 

[Mayita30]

My soul does the same every day but I am not with out sin, to magnify God is to praise him because we are not able to to fully understand his ways let alone make him bigger.
I would also say she was blessed she had the honor to bear God’s child not because she saw herself as special but because she truly loved God and was willing to be used.

btw what is a protestant?

If you are saying Mary was a sinner you are practically saying Jesus (God the Son) came from the womb of a sinner…How can that be???

Protestants are a group of Christians who broke away from the original Christian Church which is the Catholic Church founded by Jesus 2000 years ago. Jesus handed his Church to St. Peter the first Pope…and then it is a long list of Pope …

Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest who broke away from the Church and established his own Church, the Lutheran Church…This was the earliest form of Protestantism. If you study what the Lutherans believe, they still had some reverence to Mary… However , as years passed by this “man-made” church eventually divided among themselves that’s why there are several Christian denomation that just keeps on dividing…

 

[Hungry4God]

If you are saying Mary was a sinner you are practically saying Jesus (God the Son) came from the womb of a sinner…How can that be???

Protestants are a group of Christians who broke away from the original Christian Church which is the Catholic Church founded by Jesus 2000 years ago. Jesus handed his Church to St. Peter the first Pope…and then it is a long list of Pope …

Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest who broke away from the Church and established his own Church, the Lutheran Church…This was the earliest form of Protestantism. If you study what the Lutherans believe, they still had some reverence to Mary… However , as years passed by this “man-made” church eventually divided among themselves that’s why there are several Christian denomation that just keeps on dividing…

Considering God can do all things it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if jesus came from a sinners womb and yet has no sin, I mean God can turn make the universe merely by speaking. Also I wanted to ask about those two things about peter being the first pope and the fisrt church being Catholic, what evidence is there that Peter was a pope and what evidence is there that the fist church was the Catholic church?

 

[Mayita30]

Considering God can do all things it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if jesus came from a sinners womb and yet has no sin, I mean God can turn make the universe merely by speaking. Also I wanted to ask about those two things about peter being the first pope and the fisrt church being Catholic, what evidence is there that Peter was a pope and what evidence is there that the fist church was the Catholic church?

There is lots of evidence in Rome… Peter’s tomb is in the vatican…and the next pope and the next…it is a long list…all their tombs are in the vatican in St. Peter’s Square…

 

[Mayita30]

I never liked Wikipedia as a reference but anyway here goes…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes

 

[Atheling2]

My soul does the same every day but I am not with out sin, to magnify God is to praise him because we are not able to to fully understand his ways let alone make him bigger.
I would also say she was blessed she had the honor to bear God’s child not because she saw herself as special but because she truly loved God and was willing to be used.

btw what is a protestant?

But Protestants don’t call her blessed. You even started this thread without calling her blessed. That’s unBiblical!

 

[Fauken]

Considering God can do all things it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if jesus came from a sinners womb and yet has no sin, I mean God can turn make the universe merely by speaking. Also I wanted to ask about those two things about peter being the first pope and the fisrt church being Catholic, what evidence is there that Peter was a pope and what evidence is there that the fist church was the Catholic church?

Peter’s Authority (it has scripture for you to check):
catholic.com/tracts/peter-and-the-papacy

The Church’s history:
catholic.com/encyclopedia/curricula/church-history

It’s long, but what do you expect with a 2,000 year old church?

 

[Jeanne_S]

The same way you and I can
we are full of grace as well but we still sin don’t we?

Mary was pre emptively cleansed of her original sin,by God ,through whom all things are possible. She was full of Grace Bacause at the moment the Archangal Gabrial addressed her as such,and Mary gave her fiat,Our Lord took rest in her womb.

 

[Mayita30]

When we have sinned and have not confessed this sin… we do not have God’s grace

Mary was full of grace meaning she was sinless…

Anyway I do not see the point in debating this. Whether mother was sinful or sinless…I love her very much because she is Our Lord’s mother and Jesus gave us his mother before he died on the cross…

** "Woman, behold, your son.“Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.” (John 19:26-27).**

As a final gift, right before He died, He gave His mother to His whole family, through giving her to the beloved disciple John. This was a gift for all of us, an exchange, and an expansion of the family circle of relationship. In this exchange, the tradition has long taught, He also entrusted all of us to her maternal care. Jesus was not minimizing His relationship with His mother through these words given in response to the crowd, He was expanding it. He hungers, through Divine love, to include all of us in the “family circle” of God.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

So since coming here I have found it very educational and enlightening, for those who don’t know I am a Christian seeking the truth about the Catholic faith as many of my Christian brothers and sisters have said many things like how the Catholic faith is heresy how not one of them is saved how they worship idols and much more and some have even said that they won’t even dig deeper to find the truth because they are set in their beliefs and views.

But God has taught me to have blind faith in him but not to blindly believe what I hear and have been told. Now one of the main issues I hear from Christians is about Mary. Two thing that Christians are constantly attacking the Catholics for is first that Mary was sinless she had no sin and the second is of course praying to mary to intercede to Jesus for him to do so to the father.

This is a huge mountain that I have to tackle so I wanted to discuss this. Firstly about mary not having any sin I want to start with this scripture 1 John 1:8 f we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Now if this scripture is true then that also means Mary was a sinner as well, and the scriptures is how we know what we believe is true yes? So is there a scripture that clearly says and proves Mary was sinless?

Second why is it required to pray to pary to intercede to Jesus? Because the scriptures say this-Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

On Mary’s “sinlessness”, you might want to begin by reading this link. It gives quite a number of quotes on Mary’s status from the church fathers, who lived much closer to the Apostolic age than we do.

greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00ADRh

On the business of “praying to Mary”, as for in example the “Hail Mary”, I point out that Christ’s very first miracle, the Wedding at Cana, was done specifically at her request.

In other words, she asked for something as His mother, and He granted it. But in return she also pointed to her Son, Christ - “Do everything He tells you.” Which is something Protestants miss - in our devotion to her, she points to her divine Son.

There’s a special relationship between Christ and His mother. She wasn’t just chosen out of a barrel to be the bearer of God in the Flesh. And there was something special about her character for her to be chosen.

Even the Archangel Gabriel hailed her as “full of grace”.

Likewise at the end of the crucifixion story in John, Christ indicates to both his disciple and to His mother that they are Mother and Son - “Behold your son” and “Behold your mother”.

What Protestants miss in their literal interpretation of this Scripture is that Christ loves all His disciples, and when He said these words from the cross, and since He was God in the Flesh, they reverberate all down through history (just like His words about the bread and wine being His flesh and blood, but that’s another story).

Which means He was declaring ALL His disciples are His mother’s sons and daughters.

And so we say in the “Hail Mary” for example …

“Hail Mary, full of grace…” which is pretty much what the Archangel Gabriel said, no more or less;

“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus…” which is pretty much what her cousin Elizabeth said went to visit her, no more or less;

“Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death…” which is simply a request for Christ’ Mother, at whose bequest Christ performed his first public miracle, to pray for us.

I assume you ask your Christian mates to pray for you? How much more effective then to ask Christ’s Mother to pray for you?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

This is a correction and addition to my last post above.

The correction first - in the line

“Hail Mary, full of grace…” which is pretty much what the Archangel Gabriel said, no more or less;

, it should have read

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee…” which is pretty much what the Archangel Gabriel said, no more or less;

.

Now that’s out of the way, you might be interested in the two following links -

1. I lifted this from the following site. The paragraph is the very last one in the article, if that’s all you want to read.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/interview-with-an-exorcist

Do you recommend that people nurture a relationship with the Blessed Mother?

Yes. She’s the first disciple, the first to say “yes” in the Gospels, she’s the first vocation in the Church, she’s the carrier of the Word. From the point of view of an exorcist, Satan and the demons hate the Blessed Mother in a very different kind of way than they hate Christ. And very often the Hail Mary can be more powerful than the prayers of the rite of exorcism.

In another interview with a different Catholic exorcist based in Rome, which I have trouble finding on the net these days, he commented that the demons NEVER blaspheme Mary. He remarked “It’s an enigma!” They routinely blaspheme the victim, the exorcist, bystanders, Christ, and even God the Father, but NEVER Mary.

My understanding of that is that God has simply forbidden the devil to do so … “You can blaspheme anybody you like - even Me - I’m big enough to take it! And you’re going to pay for it the end anyway! But don’t you even THINK about blaspheming the woman I chose as the mother of my only Son!”

1. The next link is an article written by Bishop Fulton Sheen about Mary and her apparition at Fatima, and the Moslems. He wrote this back in the 1950’s so he was a long way ahead of Western society and statesmen.

ignatiusinsight.com/features2009/fsheen_maryandislam__jun09.asp

I think you’ll find it interesting.

Finally I used to be Protestant as my introduction indicates. I was fortunate enough (actually I think the Lord planned it that way) to have as my first and most formative religious figure a pastor by the name of Rev. Robert Missenden.

He was Methodist by training, but working in the Presbyterian Church at the time.

We were talking about Marian apparitions at one time (Lourdes, Fatime etc), and he remarked “There’s been a lot of them…” and “I think they’re a judgement on a divided church.”

And that was a wise old PROTESTANT pastor talking.

 

[Todd977]

Considering God can do all things it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if jesus came from a sinners womb and yet has no sin, I mean God can turn make the universe merely by speaking.

You are correct; Mary’s sinlessness was not necessary for her to be Jesus’ mother. However, it was fitting for her to be sinless while carrying the child Jesus, the Word of God, in her womb, just as it was fitting that the Ten Commandments stone tablets of the Old Covanant, the stone tablets inscribed with the words of God, be carried around in a new wooden box covered inside and out with precious gold. The stone tablets could have been carried around in any plain, old, used wooden box but it was more fitting, owing to the dignity of the words of God, that they be carried around in a new wooden box covered inside and out with precious gold. In the same way, Jesus could have been born of any old woman but it was more fitting that he be born of a sinless virgin, owing to his dignity as the Word of God. Because of the similarities between Mary and the ark of the Old Covenant, the one carrying the Word of God and the other carrying the words of God, Mary is sometimes called the ark of the New Covenant.

 

[Michael68]

So since coming here I have found it very educational and enlightening, for those who don’t know I am a Christian seeking the truth about the Catholic faith as many of my Christian brothers and sisters have said many things like how the Catholic faith is heresy how not one of them is saved how they worship idols and much more and some have even said that they won’t even dig deeper to find the truth because they are set in their beliefs and views.

But God has taught me to have blind faith in him but not to blindly believe what I hear and have been told. Now one of the main issues I hear from Christians is about Mary. Two thing that Christians are constantly attacking the Catholics for is first that Mary was sinless she had no sin and the second is of course praying to mary to intercede to Jesus for him to do so to the father.

This is a huge mountain that I have to tackle so I wanted to discuss this. Firstly about mary not having any sin I want to start with this scripture 1 John 1:8 f we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Now if this scripture is true then that also means Mary was a sinner as well, and the scriptures is how we know what we believe is true yes? So is there a scripture that clearly says and proves Mary was sinless?

Second why is it required to pray to pary to intercede to Jesus? Because the scriptures say this-Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Hi Blain!!! Its zzz98! Welcome!

 

[johnnyc176]

I admit I don’t the specific verse that says this but I do know this if we are to believe that the bible is the holy word of God and that it is holy spirit inspired then why would we not base our beliefs on what it is written it? Because if we choose to believe something that is not in the bible then it is a man made belief and honestly made man beliefs are not very reliable as we have a very limited understanding compared to God.

Plus it’s very easy to believe a man made belief because we want to not because it’s true

Because the Catholic Church was founded long before the Bible was established (by the Catholic Church). God’s Word comes to us not only in Sacred Scripture but also Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church that Jesus founded, the Catholic Church.

Can you show me where in the Bible that the Bible is the only source that we use to know the teachings of Jesus? What provision did Jesus leave for His teachings to be passed on? Did Jesus leave any instructions on how the New Testament was to be compiled? You would think that if the Bible was to be the sole instrument to how we practice our Faith then Jesus would have had to say a lot about that.

 

[adrift]

So since coming here I have found it very educational and enlightening, for those who don’t know I am a Christian seeking the truth about the Catholic faith as many of my Christian brothers and sisters have said many things like how the Catholic faith is heresy how not one of them is saved how they worship idols and much more and some have even said that they won’t even dig deeper to find the truth because they are set in their beliefs and views.

But God has taught me to have blind faith in him but not to blindly believe what I hear and have been told. Now one of the main issues I hear from Christians is about Mary. Two thing that Christians are constantly attacking the Catholics for is first that Mary was sinless she had no sin and the second is of course praying to mary to intercede to Jesus for him to do so to the father This is a huge mountain that I have to tackle so I wanted to discuss this. Firstly about mary not having any sin I want to start with this scripture 1 John 1:8 f we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Now if this scripture is true then that also means Mary was a sinner as well, and the scriptures is how we know what we believe is true yes? So is there a scripture that clearly says and proves Mary was sinless?.

Please tell me what sin a baby, a toddler, a child commits? How about one who has a mental disability?
The scripture that you quote makes no mention of Jesus being an exception.

Second why is it required to pray to pary to intercede to Jesus? Because the scriptures say this-Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

The first problem I see is that you equate asking someone to pray for you as being a mediator. When Paul asked for prayers was he asking them to be a mediator?
Ephesians 6:19-20. Romans 15 30-32
I believe that Jesus performed His first miracle at the bequest of His mother just to demonstrate to us that we should ask her to pray for us.