I would like to discuss the theology on Mary

[Hungry4God]

So since coming here I have found it very educational and enlightening, for those who don’t know I am a Christian seeking the truth about the Catholic faith as many of my Christian brothers and sisters have said many things like how the Catholic faith is heresy how not one of them is saved how they worship idols and much more and some have even said that they won’t even dig deeper to find the truth because they are set in their beliefs and views.

But God has taught me to have blind faith in him but not to blindly believe what I hear and have been told. Now one of the main issues I hear from Christians is about Mary. Two thing that Christians are constantly attacking the Catholics for is first that Mary was sinless she had no sin and the second is of course praying to mary to intercede to Jesus for him to do so to the father.

This is a huge mountain that I have to tackle so I wanted to discuss this. Firstly about mary not having any sin I want to start with this scripture 1 John 1:8 f we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Now if this scripture is true then that also means Mary was a sinner as well, and the scriptures is how we know what we believe is true yes? So is there a scripture that clearly says and proves Mary was sinless?

Second why is it required to pray to pary to intercede to Jesus? Because the scriptures say this-Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… Second why is it required to pray to Mary to intercede to Jesus? …,

It definitely isn’t “required” in the sense of before proceeding to anything else. Several contributions to your other thread touch on this. She is like an Ark because of her role in bringing Christ to us.

I suggest you look at all the other parts of the Catholic faith you want to learn more about, at the same time.

Welcome! Many Protestants have been a support to me over the years.

 

[CRUSADER_KING]

Here is a great article on the topic that may help you:
catholic.com/magazine/articles/mary-mother-of-salvation

 

[bobballen_18]

Firstly about mary not having any sin I want to start with this scripture 1 John 1:8 f we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Now if this scripture is true then that also means Mary was a sinner as well, and the scriptures is how we know what we believe is true yes? So is there a scripture that clearly says and proves Mary was sinless?

I’ll let others respond more fully than I can on this particular point, but I just wanted to add my two cents on this point: Is your problem with the idea of Mary being sinless the problem of implying she therefore didn’t need to be saved? I just wanted to point out that if this is your problem, the Catholic teaching is that she indeed did need to be saved - the only way she could have possibly been preserved from the stain of original sin was through God’s grace. She was still saved through God’s grace, the only way any of us can be saved.

Also some food for thought on this topic - do you believe that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of a human being (Mary)? That God became Man and is both fully Divine and fully Human? If you do, then look at it this way: if God has the power to make these things happen, then couldn’t He have the power to bestow the gift which He did on Mary - the gift of being immaculately conceived (without the stain of original sin)?

Anyway, I don’t know if that last paragraph helps you, but I think the important thing to understand is what I said in my first paragraph - Mary, though sinless throughout her whole existence, still needed God’s grace to be saved, just as all human beings do.

Hope that helps a bit on that topic. It is great you are coming here to know what we truly believe and not just taking your non-Catholic friends’ understanding without investigation! Always search for the Truth!

 

[Corki]

So since coming here I have found it very educational and enlightening, for those who don’t know I am a Christian seeking the truth about the Catholic faith as many of my Christian brothers and sisters have said many things like how the Catholic faith is heresy how not one of them is saved how they worship idols and much more and some have even said that they won’t even dig deeper to find the truth because they are set in their beliefs and views.

But God has taught me to have blind faith in him but not to blindly believe what I hear and have been told. Now one of the main issues I hear from Christians is about Mary. Two thing that Christians are constantly attacking the Catholics for is first that Mary was sinless she had no sin and the second is of course praying to mary to intercede to Jesus for him to do so to the father.

This is a huge mountain that I have to tackle so I wanted to discuss this. Firstly about mary not having any sin I want to start with this scripture 1 John 1:8 f we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Now if this scripture is true then that also means Mary was a sinner as well, and the scriptures is how we know what we believe is true yes? So is there a scripture that clearly says and proves Mary was sinless?

Second why is it required to pray to pary to intercede to Jesus? Because the scriptures say this-Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

It is not “required” to pray through another. Most of our Catholic prayers are directed to God as either the Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. But we recognize the power of joining our prayers with others.

Do you not ever ask others to pray for you or for your intentions? Why would the prayers of your friends and neighbors be efficacious but the prayers of the Mother of God not be?

 

[Simca]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Hi Hungry4God,

Thank you for coming here and asking questions. You are more than welcome.

Coming from a Protestant Evangelical background, I understand all of the points you make. Before I became a Catholic, I had to reason all of these things out and reach an understanding which made sense to me.

I wanted to talk about your one particular point that I have quoted.

Catholics, too, believe that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, for He was the one who suffered, died, and bore our sins. No one else did that for us. We only ask Mary to pray for us. This verse, however, is not talking about prayer, otherwise it would be against the whole of Christianity for any of us to pray for another one.

Jesus said that He always lives to make intercession for us. We believe that the people who enter Heaven are also engaged with the events happening on earth, and just like their Savior, they too intercede for us. We believe that the Body of Christ is One, and that it is always One; just like we can ask people on earth to pray for us, we believe that those who are in Christ never die, so we can always ask another member of the Body of Christ to pray for us, even if they’re in Heaven.

I hope my ramblings have made some sense.

 

[Patti_M]

Most non-catholics view the church through a 200 year old American culture lense. The church is very old and has existed all over the world for 2000 years. There are many things from different cultures and times long ago that non-catholics view as strange. Being a modern day American lady I think venerating relics (esp 1st class) is an odd thing to do. But I trust my pastor and I know there are many many things I don’t know and will never know, esp about God and His church. the church is like grandma’s attic, there’s all kinds of strange and wonderful things to find.

When it comes to Mary the church asks you to try to love her as much as Christ loved her, it’s not possible to do that but we should try. Read John 2:1 the wedding at Cana. Jesus didn’t seem very interested in assisting the young couple with the wine problem until Mary interceded and asked him to.

 

[JM3]

Firstly about mary not having any sin I want to start with this scripture 1 John 1:8 f we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Now if this scripture is true then that also means Mary was a sinner as well, and the scriptures is how we know what we believe is true yes? So is there a scripture that clearly says and proves Mary was sinless?

What we believe about the Blessed Virgin Mary comes from what we believe about Jesus.

Research the name by which God knows the Blessed Virgin.

 

[on_the_hill]

Honest question from a lifelong Catholic: Is Mary’s sinlessness *not *mentioned in the Bible? I always assumed it’s in the Bible.

 

[Hungry4God]

I’ll let others respond more fully than I can on this particular point, but I just wanted to add my two cents on this point: Is your problem with the idea of Mary being sinless the problem of implying she therefore didn’t need to be saved? I just wanted to point out that if this is your problem, the Catholic teaching is that she indeed did need to be saved - the only way she could have possibly been preserved from the stain of original sin was through God’s grace. She was still saved through God’s grace, the only way any of us can be saved.

Also some food for thought on this topic - do you believe that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of a human being (Mary)? That God became Man and is both fully Divine and fully Human? If you do, then look at it this way: if God has the power to make these things happen, then couldn’t He have the power to bestow the gift which He did on Mary - the gift of being immaculately conceived (without the stain of original sin)?

Anyway, I don’t know if that last paragraph helps you, but I think the important thing to understand is what I said in my first paragraph - Mary, though sinless throughout her whole existence, still needed God’s grace to be saved, just as all human beings do.

Hope that helps a bit on that topic. It is great you are coming here to know what we truly believe and not just taking your non-Catholic friends’ understanding without investigation! Always search for the Truth!

Yes I do believe Jesus was conceived via the holy spirit and yes he was both God and man but my issue is that if someone believes that mary was without sin contradicts what the bible says. The belief that Mary was sinless is not in scripture and we are to test all spirits I cannot find one scripture that says she was sinless and thus I cannot believe it. Now if there is such scripture then I want to see it but until it is proven with the word of God it’s just a man made belief

 

[JM3]

The belief that Mary was sinless is not in scripture and we are to test all spirits I cannot find one scripture that says she was sinless and thus I cannot believe it. Now if there is such scripture then I want to see it but until it is proven with the word of God it’s just a man made belief

As I linked above.

Luke 1:28 - “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you”

The angel Gabriel appeared to her, probably in visible form, as he had to Zachery in the Holy Place of the Temple (Lk. 1:11). He greeted her with the words: “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women” (Lk. 1:28). Some think that the Greek word for “hail” (chaire) represents the salutation Shalom, meaning “peace,” “prosperity,” in common use among the Jews. But the literal sense is chaire, “rejoice thou,” may be intended. For this exhortation is repeatedly found in the Prophets and rendered chaire in the Septuagint (Zeph 3:14-17; Joel 2:21’ Zach 9:9; Lam 4:21). In this supposition the very first word uttered by the angel suggests that he is a herald of spiritual happiness.

“Full of Grace” translates kecharitōmĕnē the perfect passive participle of charitŏō. It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.[1] Verbs ending in ŏō, such as haimatŏō (turn into blood), thaumatŏō (fill with wonder), spodŏōmai (burn to ashes) frequently express the full intensity of the action. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action.[2]

 

[eddie_too]

it is hard to reconcile the angel Gabriel’s words at the Incarnation/Annunciation with a belief that Mary was a sinner.

how could Gabriel say to mary, Hail Mary, full of grace, if she was in a state of sin?

as well, why would God subject Himself to an intimate connection with sin in His gestation if He could have avoided doing so? I know this last is not biblical, but it is a question raised by the idea that mary sinned. think about the answer to this question when thoughts rise in you about whether mary was sinless.

none of the biblical verses cited say mary was a sinner. it is only through human interpretations of biblical verses that doubts about Mary’s sinlessness arise. it is far easier to believe those human interpretations are incorrect than it is to believe that God wanted His mother to be a sinner.

 

[Hungry4God]

As I linked above.

Luke 1:28 - “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you”

Yes but it in no way indicates that she was without sin, it’s obvious she was blessed among women but grace doesn’t mean sinless, we are living in the period of grace we are always forgiven and his grace is endless but we are still sinners we still have sin but we are seen in God’s because of jesus as pure clean and spotless

 

[eddie_too]

to expound just a bit on my last post. if mary is full of grace, how can there be room in her soul for sin?

 

[Hungry4God]

it is hard to reconcile the angel Gabriel’s words at the Incarnation/Annunciation with a belief that Mary was a sinner.

how could Gabriel say to mary, Hail Mary, full of grace, if she was in a state of sin?

as well, why would God subject Himself to an intimate connection with sin in His gestation if He could have avoided doing so? I know this last is not biblical, but it is a question raised by the idea that mary sinned. think about the answer to this question when thoughts rise in you about whether mary was sinless.

none of the biblical verses cited say mary was a sinner. it is only through human interpretations of biblical verses that doubts about Mary’s sinlessness arise. it is far easier to believe those human interpretations are incorrect than it is to believe that God wanted His mother to be a sinner.

Actually yes the scriptures did say that mary was a sinner as I posted earlier the scriptures say if anyone claims to be without sin the truth is not in him, I have scripture to prove my point and I test all my beliefs with scripture so this is why I am asking for scripture for yours

 

[Hungry4God]

to expound just a bit on my last post. if mary is full of grace, how can there be room in her soul for sin?

The same way you and I can
we are full of grace as well but we still sin don’t we?

 

[Usige]

Honest question from a lifelong Catholic: Is Mary’s sinlessness *not *mentioned in the Bible? I always assumed it’s in the Bible.

It is not spelled out implicitly, but Luke 1:28 is part of the basis when Gabriel says to her:

… Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee …

My understanding is that the Greek phase that “full of grace” is translated from is in the past perfect form. So that means that she is already full of grace, not that she will be. Given our understanding of original sin and grace, she could not be full of grace without the stain of original sin first being removed. The normal way would be through baptism, but Christ would not institute that sacrament for 30+ years later. So we are left with the question of how this young girl is already full of grace at the annunciation before Christ is conceived or she could be reborn in baptism. So she was either born free of original sin or God granted the gift before He sent his angel.

 

[chimo]

Yes I do believe Jesus was conceived via the holy spirit and yes he was both God and man but my issue is that if someone believes that mary was without sin contradicts what the bible says. The belief that Mary was sinless is not in scripture and we are to test all spirits I cannot find one scripture that says she was sinless and thus I cannot believe it. Now if there is such scripture then I want to see it but until it is proven with the word of God it’s just a man made belief

The teaching about the Holy Mother was never the focal point of the Apostles and Disciples who had written the New Testament. The focal point was on the redemption which the Lord was giving. Mary was still around during the early Church so she did not want any devotion shown to her but to apply it to her Son. It wasn’t until later on that devotion to the Mother of God picked up. It is certain that God wanted it because this devotion had filled the whole Church including both Catholic and Eastern Churches. Even the Eastern Orthodox Church considers Marian devotion a top priority and says Mary was sinless. This teaching from the Church (now remember we have both sources Eastern and Catholic who say the same thing so there must be truth into what they say) came about through Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition is another source of authority as is the Holy Scriptures. Both Churches the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches which includes the Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic and Coptic all subscribe to Holy Tradition as well as Holy Scripture. Since these Churches are all Apostolic with all the authority to celebrate all the Sacraments towards their full potential than they have the right to proclaim certain doctrines to Mary, the Mother of God. These doctrines seem to be contested only by Protestant groups who do not use Holy Tradition as a source of authority only the Holy Scriptures. Since Protestants attest only to the Holy Scriptures here lies the problem they have in accepting doctrines for instance which Holy Tradition has discovered. If you want scripture about Mary there is plenty from the Old and yes even from the New Testament. The burning bush from Exodus is a type of Mary. She has the fullness of the Holy Spirit within her not to consume her as the fire did not consume the bush but which had given her this incredible holiness as most of the Church Fathers had interpreted this passage as. There are many other types of images of Mary as the gate that is always open. She is the Key which opens the door. The morning star is a type for Mary. As these references do not say directly that Mary was sinless it is certain that her incredible holiness included a sinless life. The Holy Scriptures point mainly to us the needing of a savior when it discusses about sin. Mary was not an exception as she received an incredible grace from God in order to be sinless. In this case Mary was covered with God’s Graces all of her life so that she can say to God that He is her savior. Just because Mary was sinless does not mean she didn’t need a savior. The graces imputed to her had given her this salvation.

 

[JM3]

The same way you and I can
we are full of grace as well but we still sin don’t we?

I think you misunderstand grace and sin.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

You cannot be full of grace and still sin.

As for your scripture, “if anyone claims to be without sin the truth is not in him”, the Blessed Virgin did not claim to be without sin. God proclaimed it, when He called her by the name He knows her by (Kecharitomene).

 

[Hungry4God]

The teaching about the Holy Mother was never the focal point of the Apostles and Disciples who had written the New Testament. The focal point was on the redemption which the Lord was giving. Mary was still around during the early Church so she did not want any devotion shown to her but to apply it to her Son. It wasn’t until later on that devotion to the Mother of God picked up. It is certain that God wanted it because this devotion had filled the whole Church including both Catholic and Eastern Churches. Even the Eastern Orthodox Church considers Marian devotion a top priority and says Mary was sinless. This teaching from the Church (now remember we have both sources Eastern and Catholic who say the same thing so there must be truth into what they say) came about through Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition is another source of authority as is the Holy Scriptures. Both Churches the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches which includes the Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic and Coptic all subscribe to Holy Tradition as well as Holy Scripture. Since these Churches are all Apostolic with all the authority to celebrate all the Sacraments towards their full potential than they have the right to proclaim certain doctrines to Mary, the Mother of God. These doctrines seem to be contested only by Protestant groups who do not use Holy Tradition as a source of authority only the Holy Scriptures. Since Protestants attest only to the Holy Scriptures here lies the problem they have in accepting doctrines for instance which Holy Tradition has discovered. If you want scripture about Mary there is plenty from the Old and yes even from the New Testament. The burning bush from Exodus is a type of Mary. She has the fullness of the Holy Spirit within her not to consume her as the fire did not consume the bush but which had given her this incredible holiness as most of the Church Fathers had interpreted this passage as. There are many other types of images of Mary as the gate that is always open. She is the Key which opens the door. The morning star is a type for Mary. As these references do not say directly that Mary was sinless it is certain that her incredible holiness included a sinless life. The Holy Scriptures point mainly to us when it discusses sin. Mary was not an exception as she received an incredible grace from God in order to be sinless. In this case Mary was covered with God’s Graces all of her life so that she can say to God that He is her savior. Just because Mary was sinless does not mean she didn’t need a savior. The graces imputed to her had given her this salvation.

Much of what said about the burning bush the morning star and ect. brings an issue. All of that is simply an interpretation or view of what the scriptures mean which means it is not solid it cannot be proven as absolute truth because the scriptures do not in any way say all of this but our interpretations can