Icons & statues - A stumbling block?

[gurneyhalleck1]

I have absolutely no doubt about that.

It’s not the city itself that’s infallible - if St. Peter had died in Antioch, it would have been the Bishops of Antioch who inherited the promises made to him - as it turned out, though, he died in Rome, so it was the Bishops of Rome who inherited them.

If that were the case nowdays, Las Vegas and Oakland would have to be dual headquarters for the Church!
I have read where the ante-Nicene Fathers appreciated God’s sense of humour, in making the most sinful city on earth to be His headquarters.

 

[jmcrae]

If that were the case nowdays, Las Vegas and Oakland would have to be dual headquarters for the Church!

I hear tell that Las Vegas actually has more Catholic Churches per square mile than some cities in Poland.

 

[JonNC]

If that were the case nowdays, Las Vegas and Oakland would have to be dual headquarters for the Church!

I thought Jerry Brown fixed all that in Oakland.

Jon

 

[doughnut]

on the contrary, i felt that icons helped to reinforce our focus to pray. that said, humanminds are so prone to distractions that sometimes with such images, it reminded us our faith better than seeing the uncharitable neighbor who gave you headahes from time to time. it’s easier to focus on God when looking at icons than looking at say, some of the unpleasant things around us.

If we understand that God is around us, then very little thing on earth, ultimately comes from God. Then, even if the icons may not be the actual representation of God in our minds, it is still from God, because all things come from him; and that this icon became one aspect of how we wish to relate to Him. Ultimately, we didnt believe that this little icon has power of its own, but that it served as a reminder.

When we meet a person who leads a holy life, is it easy to see Christ in him? Probably yes, but what if we meet someone who really seemed to fall far from the teachings of Christ? Much as we imagined them as ‘spawns’ of devil, they are both still children of God, only that the latter is twice as likely to invoke negative feelings than the first. Therefore, having icons, our ‘own representations’ of images of God, kept us focus on our faith, and in Him.

Why do any of us wear crosses in the first place too? If images or representations is prohibited, the cross should be done away too.

However, ‘graven images’ does point to ‘materialism’ in a sense. Things of this world - I like to see it more as a contrast of spiritual vs worldly, and that we are not supposed to worship the ‘materials’. The presence of icons didn’t make us worship the materials, ie. the paint, the wood, the fabric, the whatever materials that make up the icon; but it reinforce our focus in God. On the other hand, pursuit of luxury lifestyles is in fact a display of worshipping the ‘material’ because we do everything we can, to obtain these ‘materials’. That’s worshipping of ‘material’.

 

[shaky]

on the contrary, i felt that icons helped to reinforce our focus to pray. that said, humanminds are so prone to distractions that sometimes with such images, it reminded us our faith better than seeing the uncharitable neighbor who gave you headahes from time to time. it’s easier to focus on God when looking at icons than looking at say, some of the unpleasant things around us.

If we understand that God is around us, then very little thing on earth, ultimately comes from God. Then, even if the icons may not be the actual representation of God in our minds, it is still from God, because all things come from him; and that this icon became one aspect of how we wish to relate to Him. Ultimately, we didnt believe that this little icon has power of its own, but that it served as a reminder.

When we meet a person who leads a holy life, is it easy to see Christ in him? Probably yes, but what if we meet someone who really seemed to fall far from the teachings of Christ? Much as we imagined them as ‘spawns’ of devil, they are both still children of God, only that the latter is twice as likely to invoke negative feelings than the first. Therefore, having icons, our ‘own representations’ of images of God, kept us focus on our faith, and in Him.

Why do any of us wear crosses in the first place too? If images or representations is prohibited, the cross should be done away too.

However, ‘graven images’ does point to ‘materialism’ in a sense. Things of this world - I like to see it more as a contrast of spiritual vs worldly, and that we are not supposed to worship the ‘materials’. The presence of icons didn’t make us worship the materials, ie. the paint, the wood, the fabric, the whatever materials that make up the icon; but it reinforce our focus in God. On the other hand, pursuit of luxury lifestyles is in fact a display of worshipping the ‘material’ because we do everything we can, to obtain these ‘materials’. That’s worshipping of ‘material’.

I know Eastern Orthodox catholics venerate Icons of Saints by bowing to them or kissing them.
What i find by talking to protestants like baptists etc. They probably would not have a problem venerating a Icon of Jesus because there are passages in the bible where the diciples worshiped Jesus. But when it comes to any of the Saints they are very unsure about this practice because of {Acts 10:24-26} where Cornelius bowed down to worship Peter. But Peter stopped him saying i am only a Man.

Do Roman catholics do the Same thing with a Icon of a Saints?
If so can you help me to understand why this is OK.

 

[Brywan]

Even though icons & statues are permitted as objects of veneration, do you think that they may be a stumbling block for some to come to the True Faith?

The veneration of icons is rooted in the Christian belief in the incarnation. If you have a a creedal understanding of the incarnation of Christ, then the veneration of icons is not a problem. If God became man, then that Man can be depicted–in a material sense. This is what the iconoclastic heresy was all about. To deny that Christ can be depicted in an icon is to deny He had a material body and lived among us–This is what the iconoclastic heresy was all about-- and the Church ultimately ruled in favor of icons.

 

[shaky]

Even though icons & statues are permitted as objects of veneration, do you think that they may be a stumbling block for some to come to the True Faith?

The veneration of icons is rooted in the Christian belief in the incarnation. If you have a a creedal understanding of the incarnation of Christ, then the veneration of icons is not a problem. If God became man, then that Man can be depicted–in a material sense. This is what the iconoclastic heresy was all about. To deny that Christ can be depicted in an icon is to deny He had a material body and lived among us–This is what the iconoclastic heresy was all about-- and the Church ultimately ruled in favor of icons.

Yes it does seem a major stumbling block to some who are thinking of coming to catholicism. Not Icons of Jesus. They dont find any problem venerating Jesus in a Icon. Its Just the Icon saints. Venerating the saints. All because of {Acts 10:24-26} Peter stopping Cornelius Bowing down to him in veneration.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes it does seem a major stumbling block to some who are thinking of coming to catholicism. Not Icons of Jesus. They dont find any problem venerating Jesus in a Icon. Its Just the Icon saints. Venerating the saints. All because of {Acts 10:24-26} Peter stopping Cornelius Bowing down to him in veneration.

Actually, Peter stopped Cornelius from bowing down to him as a god - but Peter accepted veneration, very humbly, and for the glory of God, when people were coming to him to be cured of their diseases. He always made it very clear that it was God working through him, and we also understand that it is God who works through the Saints, and allows them to be able to do the things that they do.

In Heaven, there is great freedom and great power that comes from God, but that is enjoyed by the Saints, and they are able to make use of their power and freedom for our benefit here on earth. It would be wrong to imagine that in Heaven, the Saints have no power, or that they are blind and deaf, or that they don’t care about us at all - Heaven is a condition of being where we can do and know all things.

Images of the Saints can be likened to the images we carry around in our wallets and put up in our homes, of our family members and close friends - we like to have these pictures of people that we love, and who also love us.

If someone is absent for a long time, or has died, it is not uncommon for people to kiss the picture of their loved one from time to time, or on certain occasions, such as their birthday, or their anniversary of death. If someone is kissing an icon of a Saint, surely it is out of love, and not because the person thinks that the Saint is a god. (Most Catholics would laugh at you if you said that any Saint was a god - this is not something that anybody believes.)

We can pray to the Saints and ask them to intercede for us, in the same way that a child might ask an older brother or sister to intercede for him with his parents, if he has a very special request to ask of them - or in the same way that a junior employee might ask a manager to intercede for him with the boss, if he has a particular special request that he needs to make.

 

[Publisher]

For me, I find icons and statues a distraction. They are pale and deficient representations of the Light. Our Holy Sanctuary which is not made with hands holds no icons or statures but bears the Image of Christ in our hearts…we enter into the Presence in worship…no “image” can capture nor convey the Mystery of God.

When I have attended Catholic and some Episcopal services…all the statues, icons, crosses, banners, guilded gospels, marble alters, silver and gold chalices and what-not tend to be a distraction for me to “center down” into worship.

 

[KathleenGee]

Am getting ready for work…noted the stumbling blocks…

If you do not know the lives of the saints in how they followed Jesus, then it would be a distraction. The icons are being put in my parish and we have been getting lessons on what the form and color and imagery mean…they are another means of catechesis…so much too them…even the elongation of the hands and feet mean something as well as the use of particular colors.

If a parish is named after a certain saint, they will have either a statue or stained glass or an icon…all theological reflections but in art form. Art form and the environment is very intellectual, alot behind it. We Catholics are more wholistic, not into being people of the Book. Ours is an Oral tradition, and we embellish our sacred space even more than the Jewish temple because ours contains the living presence of God in the tabernacle.

We even renew our baptismal promises when we enter the church by making the sign of the cross with the baptismal/holy water fonts, and renew when we leave. Besides icons and statues, we have fire…water, fire, light…all these were symbols used and drawn on numerous times in the Old Testament and are brought into the Catholic church building.

The more you study Catholicism by experiencing it, the more you will see how much the Word of God is incarnated into our daily lives in various means and forms. The statues and icons represent our humanity connecting with the Divine, God making himself one of us…it all beginning in the sacred space of Mary’s womb.

Jesus Christ then renews all of humanity and all of creation, so we have flowers, small plants in our churches, including signs of growth and ordinary life.

Alot to learn and get more in touch with one’s humanity. God never intended to be rid of the rituals and vestments of the Temple…after that passage came from Scripture in the Old Testament, the practices of the Jewish temple continued all the way up to Christ’s death and resurrection. Our churches and our hearts are the new temple.

 

[Michael2799]

Most disturbing to me is the idea that placing an image, such as a crucifix, painting or statue into a room can somehow protect those who enter that room. I have seen this countless times in people’s homes. These images are treated as if they have some sort of power. Any thoughts?

 

[jmcrae]

Most disturbing to me is the idea that placing an image, such as a crucifix, painting or statue into a room can somehow protect those who enter that room. I have seen this countless times in people’s homes. These images are treated as if they have some sort of power. Any thoughts?

It’s not the image itself that has the power, but the prayers of the blessing that is attached to it. An unblessed object is just an object, but when a priest blesses an object such as a crucifix or a Rosary, he asks God to protect all those who look on the image or use the object - and since we know that God faithfully answers prayer, we know that those who look on or use these objects will be blessed with the blessing that was given.

I hope that makes sense - I know that this was a difficult concept for me to grasp, when I was first learning about it.

 

[MartinJordan]

Blessed Crucifixes and what not aside, these are also reminders of how Christ **suffered ** and died or how reminders of the Saints who did God’s will. A kind of history lesson if you will.

We are all sinners and I think these images/statues/crucifixes make us better people if we are reminded that we all have one day or another have carry our own Cross, to face trouble and also thank God we have this promise that if we run the race to finish, we will be saved.

Just my view.

MJ

 

[ConstantineTG]

It’s not the image itself that has the power, but the prayers of the blessing that is attached to it. An unblessed object is just an object, but when a priest blesses an object such as a crucifix or a Rosary, he asks God to protect all those who look on the image or use the object - and since we know that God faithfully answers prayer, we know that those who look on or use these objects will be blessed with the blessing that was given.

I hope that makes sense - I know that this was a difficult concept for me to grasp, when I was first learning about it.

And for our scripture only folks out there, look no further than Moses’ “snake on a stick” when people looked to the image of the snake, they were cured.

This serpent on a pole is now commonly used as a logo for doctors

 

[Reuben_J]

Most disturbing to me is the idea that placing an image, such as a crucifix, painting or statue into a room can somehow protect those who enter that room. I have seen this countless times in people’s homes. These images are treated as if they have some sort of power. Any thoughts?

That’s often the misconception that people, even Catholics have on the Sacramental objects that you mentioned above. Of course in themselves they have no power but its the prayers that’s attached to them.

About protection. What protection do you really need as a Christian? Unlike the unbelievers, for most of us what we really need is protection against the temptation of the Evil one to sin. In a way, Sacramentals protect us.

I hang a rosary behind my car’s windscreen. Some Catholics may say Mother Mary will protect them from accident. To me it is not accident per se, but from falling into unChrist-like behavior while I am driving. If I want to curse because the other driver is very rude, by looking at the crucifix of the Rosary I would stop short as I realize that Jesus died for my sin; and now I am about to commit one. In that sense the Rosary protects me from becoming unChrist-like and from sin.

 

[KathleenGee]

Didn’t the apostles or their followers carry sacramentals…one carried a picture of St. Jude…beginning of use of sacramentals…

 

[Redbaron998]

I came from a Methodist background myself so we had some decently nice Churchs and maybe a painting or two of Christ the Shepard but that was it. The first time I entered a Catholic Church (even one as contemporary in design as mine) I was amazed. I loved the statues (We have two, One of the Holy Family (Child Jesus, Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph and the other of the Blessed Virigin holding the baby Jesus) They were really nice and well done and I very much appreciated them.

You bring up the point that people may think we are worshipping the statues or painting. While I can see this misconception as a possibility we must keep in mind it is a misconception as you know. (In a similar way it is a misconception that most Buddhist (I say most because I am only familiar with some groups) do not worship the statue of Buddha.) Idolatry is against God’s law and a greivous sin. So while I can understand that we should think about how others percieve our veneration for the sake of future evangalization, I dont think we should have to change our way of venerating the saints per say because someone else doesnt understand it, and when they ask and we tell them we dont worship statues they dont want to listen.

A personal story: I was on vacation. Being on vacation and all I was caught up with having lots of fun and being kinda wordly. Randomly in a window of a shop I saw a statue of Mary. It brought to my attention more holy thoughts and served as a reminder to me of my Christian Life. We are humans, and sometimes we need little reminders, and bring overall visual creatures a visual reminder works great espically when we are in a hurry to do something. I thus have tried to put something Chrisitan, be it a Crucifix or a picture, (or even a little statue if I had one) in every room of the house. It helps me stay focused on God and reminds me of who I am called to be by God.

 

[Bluegoat]

Of course it can be a difficulty for people. Many Christians from traditions that distrust images find it hard to get used to them, even if they come to accept them in principle.

Does this mean they should be done away with? No, becuse saying that we cannot make images of this type is a kind of dualism and rejection of the incarnation, and is related to a mindset that leads to heresy.

However, we can be gentle with people and allow them to come to new practises slowly as they become more comfortable with them.

I think that people who come from a polytheistic tradition may have even more serious difficulty than those who come from a tradition without images. This would especially be the case in a newly evangelized culture.

THe best plan with both types of individuals I think is to say precisely why the Church uses such images and their connection to theology, but also clearly admit that their use requires proper teaching and care to avoid moving into error, and point out how this is accomplished.

 

[pipper]

For me, I find icons and statues a distraction. They are pale and deficient representations of the Light. Our Holy Sanctuary which is not made with hands holds no icons or statures but bears the Image of Christ in our hearts…we enter into the Presence in worship…no “image” can capture nor convey the Mystery of God.

When I have attended Catholic and some Episcopal services…all the statues, icons, crosses, banners, guilded gospels, marble alters, silver and gold chalices and what-not tend to be a distraction for me to “center down” into worship.

But Pubisher you are a Friend and the Friends idea of worship is to sit silently in a bare room and meditate, wait on the spirit. That is fine, I don’t discourage it.

But we are Catholics and to us all the “holy hardware” is an aid to our worship, we worship actively with all the senses engaged.

I would never criticise you for your way of worship, please return the favor.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sounds like a food court delicacy—snake on a stick by Moses!

And for our scripture only folks out there, look no further than Moses’ “snake on a stick” when people looked to the image of the snake, they were cured.

This serpent on a pole is now commonly used as a logo for doctors